AT Ind XI: ODIs

[zen]

At the end of the day, ATX1 are not just about stats but also about a player's talent, temprement and technique. Sehwag may not have an earth shattering avg in ODIs but he is probably one of the better batsmen equipped to take an AT bowling attack of the opposition. Relying purely on stats could be misleading as someone could have excellent stats on the basis of playing some weaker teams. Also when you pick a player, you have to put him in same period as others to judge him. This is more of an imiganation process. So a Yuvraj Singh is either playing in the 80s with Gavaskar, Amarnath or a Gavaskar, Amarnath is playing in the 2000s with Yuvraj. I don't see a how Yuvraj could come up better than either in any period! You can't assume Gavaskar to play the same in 2000s like he would in 1970s! On the other hand, a Sehwag, in my book, would be good enough in most period so he would make in to my 11. When it comes to AT11, guys like Yuvi or the Sachin-Ganguy opening partnership appears over-ratted to me. Since picking an AT11 is also an imigainaray process, let's take a look at some of the bowling attack in their best form (each and every bowler is bowling at his best), with our batsmen in their best form as well: - WI: Marshall, Holding, Garner and Ambrose - Aus: Lillee, McGrath, Thompson and Warne - Pak: Imran, Wasim, Waqar and Akthar/Saqlain I don't see how a Yuvi even in his best form would be successful against these guys bowling in their best form. I can't see Ganguly being successful batting in the top 3 against these attacks either. At the end of the day, you have to pick high quality players in the 11. Which is why guys like Tendulkar, Dravid, Gavaskar, Sehwag, Kapil, Kumble and Srinath easily make the cut in my 11. Based on pure quality and ability to play pacers well under pressure, Amarnath makes a case for himself. The guy was also MoM in both SF and F in WC'83.

[ZodiaC]

When it comes to AT11, guys like Yuvi or the Sachin-Ganguy opening partnership appears over-ratted to me. Since picking an AT11 is also an imigainaray process, let's take a look at some of the bowling attack in their best form (each and every bowler is bowling at his best), with our batsmen in their best form as well: - WI: Marshall, Holding, Garner and Ambrose - Aus: Lillee, McGrath, Thompson and Warne - Pak: Imran, Wasim, Waqar and Akthar/Saqlain I don't see how a Yuvi even in his best form would be successful against these guys bowling in their best form. I can't see Ganguly being successful batting in the top 3 against these attacks either. At the end of the day, you have to pick high quality players in the 11. Which is why guys like Tendulkar, Dravid, Gavaskar, Sehwag, Kapil, Kumble and Srinath easily make the cut in my 11. Based on pure quality and ability to play pacers well under pressure, Amarnath makes a case for himself. The guy was also MoM in both SF and F in WC'83.

Ganguly may not be the best player of pace. But he's easily one of the best players of spin. So stop being picky & making up hypothetical stuff. You never know how he'd have been fared against them. And from the above mentioned names: Ganguly averages 55 vs Wasim, 45 vs Saqlain, 19.40 vs Waqar. 19.20 vs McGrath, 90 vs Murali. Not bad at all from whatever info is available. And what makes you say that players who are able to play quality pace bowling are alone qualified to make their cut to the All time XI?

[zen]

Ganguly may not be the best player of pace. But he's easily one of the best players of spin. So stop being picky & making up hypothetical stuff. You never know how he'd have been fared against them. And from the above mentioned names: Ganguly averages 55 vs Wasim, 45 vs Saqlain, 19.40 vs Waqar. 19.20 vs McGrath, 90 vs Murali. Not bad at all from whatever info is available. And what makes you say that players who are able to play quality pace bowling are alone qualified to make their cut to the All time XI?

1. I said I wouldn't have Ganguly batting in the top 3 as I don't have much confidence in his ability to face new ball against some of the best bowlers bowling at their best (even with Ganguly batting at his best). I would probably have him at #5 or #6. 2. I don't see too many great spinners in most AT11 compared to seamers. Most 11s would probably have one spinner like Warne for Aus, Saqlain for Pak may be. So for me the ability to play pace well is very important. And in India most of the guys making it to AT11 would play spin well, playing pace well is probably the differentiating factor :winky: And yeah, before you decide to type something, make sure what's being said by the other person :P

[ZodiaC]

1. I said I wouldn't have Ganguly batting in the top 3 as I don't have much confidence in his ability to face new ball against some of the best bowlers bowling at their best (even with Ganguly batting at his best). I would probably have him at #5 or #6. 2. I don't see too many great spinners in most AT11 compared to seamers. Most 11s would probably have one spinner like Warne for Aus, Saqlain for Pak may be. So for me the ability to play pace well is very important. And in India most of the guys making it to AT11 would play spin well, playing pace well is probably the differentiating factor :winky: And yeah, before you decide to type something, make sure what's being said by the other person :P

I don't see how a Yuvi even in his best form would be successful against these guys bowling in their best form. I can't see Ganguly being successful batting in the top 3 against these attacks either. At the end of the day, you have to pick high quality players in the 11. Which is why guys like Tendulkar, Dravid, Gavaskar, Sehwag, Kapil, Kumble and Srinath easily make the cut in my 11. Based on pure quality and ability to play pacers well under pressure, Amarnath makes a case for himself. The guy was also MoM in both SF and F in WC'83.

Hmm, this part kinda confused me. If you were mentioning about the Sourav-Tendu opening pair alone, fine. And how can you predict that the likes of Sehwag is gonna thrive against the pace attack? His averages are on the lower side @ Aus, England etc. While gangs has decent averages to say the least in all the above mentioned tracks. Not that averages matter, but it's interesting how you could predict that Sehwag is gonna smoke them.

[zen]

Hmm, this part kinda confused me. If you were mentioning about the Sourav-Tendu opening pair alone, fine. And how can you predict that the likes of Sehwag is gonna thrive against the pace attack? His averages are on the lower side @ Aus, England etc. While gangs has decent averages to say the least in all the above mentioned tracks. Not that averages matter, but it's interesting how you could predict that Sehwag is gonna smoke them.

That's a good question but the answer to that is simple, i.e. Sehwag is a successful test opener, who would also make it to the AT test X1. So there is not really much to doubt Sehwag's ability. As I said before, selecting someone for ATX1 is not just about stats. Also with the kind of bowling attacks for ATXIs have, I expect the captains to be a bit more attacking. It would be easy for a team to get in to 50/4 kind of situation if they don't bat well. The current slam bang approach in PP may not always work and you could have to built a solid platform. Which is one of the reasons, why I have Gavaskar as an opener in my ATX1.

[ZodiaC]

That's a good question but the answer to that is simple, i.e. Sehwag is a successful test opener, who would also make it to the AT test X1. So there is not really much to doubt Sehwag's ability. As I said before, selecting someone for ATX1 is not just about stats. Also with the kind of bowling attacks for ATXIs have, I expect the captains to be a bit more attacking. It would be easy for a team to get in to 50/4 kind of situation if they don't bat well. The current slam bang approach in PP may not always work and you could have to built a solid platform. Which is one of the reasons, why I have Gavaskar as an opener in my ATX1.

LOL just because Sehwag is in AT test XI, he becomes an automatic choice for ODI XI? What kind of logic is that?:giggle: Sorry, can't agree with you there. ODI is a different ball game and there's no guarantee that Sehwag is gonna do good against these bowlers. Gangu faced much tougher attacks compared to Sehwag and still Sehwag averages lesser. Just because Laxman did well against quality attacks under pressure in tests, would he make it to the All time ODI XI? And about PP approach, once you lay a good platform in the first 10 overs, then the pressure automatically shifts to the opposition. That's precisely why Viru is there, once he get going, it's carnage. It'll be hard to pull the team back from such a position. Hence I prefer Viru over Sunny, albeit marginally.

[Sooda]

vs D Haynes A Gilchrist R Ponting J Kallis B Lara V Richards S Pollock W Akram S Warne M Muralithran G McGrath

[zen]

LOL just because Sehwag is in AT test XI' date=' he becomes an automatic choice for ODI XI? What kind of logic is that?:giggle: Sorry, can't agree with you there. ODI is a different ball game and there's no guarantee that Sehwag is gonna do good against these bowlers. Gangu faced much tougher attacks compared to Sehwag and still Sehwag averages lesser. Just because Laxman did well against quality attacks under pressure in tests, would he make it to the All time ODI XI? [/quote'] Is that what you understood? :giggle: .... Wow, so you thought that I said that since Sehwag is in AT test X1 he should be in ODI X1 too. I must say your comprehension skills are outstanding. So if that's my logic why would I bother starting a thread to pick an AT ODIX1, I could just use my test X1, right! .... Dude, I implied that Sehwag's ability to play pace bowling well isn't in any doubt as he is a successful test opener, and that too of an AT test X1 quality. And that too in response to your this statement "And how can you predict that the likes of Sehwag is gonna thrive against the pace attack?" .... If being an AT test XI quality opener doesn't show a players ability to play pace to you well then nothing will. And Sehwag doesn't have a bad record in ODIs. In fact he is one of the main reasons for Ind good performances of late. But as I said in one of my posts that picking an ATX1 isn't about just stats. If it were than 'Statsguru' would be picking one by default. Appears as if your Ganguly love has blinded you. Talk to someone else to express your love for Ganguly and show how great he is. I won't be entertaining you further on this :P

And about PP approach, once you lay a good platform in the first 10 overs, then the pressure automatically shifts to the opposition. That's precisely why Viru is there, once he get going, it's carnage. It'll be hard to pull the team back from such a position. Hence I prefer Viru over Sunny, albeit marginally.

*yawn*

[zen]

vs D Haynes A Gilchrist R Ponting J Kallis B Lara V Richards S Pollock W Akram S Warne M Muralithran G McGrath

I haven't seen Sir Viv Richards bat so low before in any type of X1. But I guess there is always a first time :P

[zen]

My fav (besides Ind) would be the WI ATX1 - Haynes - Greenidge - Lara - Richards - Sobers (played 1 or 2 ODIs :P ) - Lloyd .... Hooper / Gayle (for bowling utility as well) .... X - Dujon - Marshall - Ambrose - Holding - Garner (considered by many as the best ODI bowler)

[zen]

My fav (besides Ind) would be the WI ATX1 - Haynes - Greenidge - Lara - Richards - Sobers (played 1 or 2 ODIs :P ) - Lloyd .... Hooper / Gayle (for bowling utility as well) .... X - Dujon - Marshall - Ambrose - Holding - Garner (considered by many as the best ODI bowler)

When I see AT11 like that^ and when I see Ind fans include the likes of Yuvi (that too at #4 or #5) and Jadeja in their X1 then it makes me go :nervous: and :crazy4: :P

[ZodiaC]

Is that what you understood? :giggle: .... Wow' date=' so you thought that I said that since Sehwag is in AT test X1 he should be in ODI X1 too. I must say your comprehension skills are outstanding. So if that's my logic why would I bother starting a thread to pick an AT ODIX1, I could just use my test X1, right! .... Dude, I implied that Sehwag's ability to play pace bowling well isn't in any doubt as he is a successful test opener, and that too of an AT test X1 quality. And that too in response to your this statement "And how can you predict that the likes of Sehwag is gonna thrive against the pace attack?" .... If being an AT test XI quality opener doesn't show a players ability to play pace to you well then nothing will. And Sehwag doesn't have a bad record in ODIs. In fact he is one of the main reasons for Ind good performances of late. But as I said in one of my posts that picking an ATX1 isn't about just stats. If it were than 'Statsguru' would be picking one by default.

Did I say he had a bad record in ODIs? But still he has that tendency to get out early to seam attack, watch any of his innings and mostly he's tentative against fast bowling early on. Be it Mortaza or Steyn. Plus he's a bit vulnerable to the short balls directed at his body. I can't still get how you can predict he'll do well against Marshall & co. He did face some formidable attacks but nothing as threatening as Marshall, Holding etc. Raina might do well against Randiv and Mendis but that doesn't necessarily mean he'd do good against Saqlain or Warnie. Hope you get my point. Plus test matches suits him as his odd mistimed shots/slogs once its past the infield may go for fours but in ODIs its less likely that he'd get away with them.

Appears as if your Ganguly love has blinded you. Talk to someone else to express your love for Ganguly and show how great he is. I won't be entertaining you further on this :P *yawn*

LOL Yeah sure.

[zen]

Did I say he had a bad record in ODIs? But still he has that tendency to get out early to seam attack, watch any of his innings and mostly he's tentative against fast bowling early on. Be it Mortaza or Steyn. Plus he's a bit vulnerable to the short balls directed at his body. I can't still get how you can predict he'll do well against Marshall & co. He did face some formidable attacks but nothing as threatening as Marshall, Holding etc. Raina might do well against Randiv and Mendis but that doesn't necessarily mean he'd do good against Saqlain or Warnie. Hope you get my point. Plus test matches suits him as his odd mistimed shots/slogs once its past the infield may go for fours but in ODIs its less likely that he'd get away with them.

If that's the case why do you have Sehwag opening in your team? And if Sehwag's success is so hard to predict why are you saying this:

And about PP approach, once you lay a good platform in the first 10 overs, then the pressure automatically shifts to the opposition. That's precisely why Viru is there, once he get going, it's carnage. It'll be hard to pull the team back from such a position. Hence I prefer Viru over Sunny, albeit marginally.

[ZodiaC]

If that's the case why do you have Sehwag opening in your team? And if Sehwag's success is so hard to predict why are you saying this:

Because that's the gamble I'm willing to take, the kind of start he gets us off to. We have plenty of solid middle order batsmen to get runs even if he falls early. Hence the choice.

[zen]

Because that's the gamble I'm willing to take' date=' the kind of start he gets us off to. We have plenty of solid middle order batsmen to get runs even if he falls early. Hence the choice.[/quote'] The point is not whether you are gambling. But why gambling on him. Is it because he has the quailty and ability to be successful against those bowlers? If yes, then there isn't a point in discussing in circles :winky: Enough said!

[ZodiaC]

The point is not whether you are gambling. But why gambling on him. Is it because he has the quailty and ability to be successful against those bowlers? If yes, then there isn't a point in discussing in circles :winky: Enough said!

Because he's the only one who makes it to the All time XI & can make full use of the fielding restrictions. Doesn't necessarily mean that he's flawless against the pace bowlers. Got it? BTW gone way too off topic. Lets keep things simple here: Who's faced better pace attack? - Dada Who fares better in pace friendly conditions (SA, WI, Aus, Eng)? - Dada Who averages better as an opener? - Dada And still Sehwag makes it to your XI easily and dada doesn't. Sorry, I can't just seem to understand your logic here.

[zen]

Because he's the only one who makes it to the All time XI & can make full use of the fielding restrictions. Doesn't necessarily mean that he's flawless against the pace bowlers. Got it? BTW gone way too off topic. Lets keep things simple here: Who's faced better pace attack? - Dada Who fares better in pace friendly conditions (SA, WI, Aus, Eng)? - Dada Who averages better as an opener? - Dada And still Sehwag makes it to your XI easily and dada doesn't. Sorry, I can't just seem to understand your logic here.

After writing so many posts still if you don't understand my PoV then whose fault is it? :haha: See below:

At the end of the day, ATX1 are not just about stats but also about a player's talent, temprement and technique. Sehwag may not have an earth shattering avg in ODIs but he is probably one of the better batsmen equipped to take an AT bowling attack of the opposition. Relying purely on stats could be misleading as someone could have excellent stats on the basis of playing some weaker teams. Also when you pick a player, you have to put him in same period as others to judge him. This is more of an imiganation process. So a Yuvraj Singh is either playing in the 80s with Gavaskar, Amarnath or a Gavaskar, Amarnath is playing in the 2000s with Yuvraj. I don't see a how Yuvraj could come up better than either in any period! You can't assume Gavaskar to play the same in 2000s like he would in 1970s! On the other hand, a Sehwag, in my book, would be good enough in most period so he would make in to my 11. When it comes to AT11, guys like Yuvi or the Sachin-Ganguy opening partnership appears over-ratted to me. Since picking an AT11 is also an imigainaray process, let's take a look at some of the bowling attack in their best form (each and every bowler is bowling at his best), with our batsmen in their best form as well: - WI: Marshall, Holding, Garner and Ambrose - Aus: Lillee, McGrath, Thompson and Warne - Pak: Imran, Wasim, Waqar and Akthar/Saqlain I don't see how a Yuvi even in his best form would be successful against these guys bowling in their best form. I can't see Ganguly being successful batting in the top 3 against these attacks either. At the end of the day, you have to pick high quality players in the 11. Which is why guys like Tendulkar, Dravid, Gavaskar, Sehwag, Kapil, Kumble and Srinath easily make the cut in my 11. Based on pure quality and ability to play pacers well under pressure, Amarnath makes a case for himself. The guy was also MoM in both SF and F in WC'83.

That's a good question but the answer to that is simple, i.e. Sehwag is a successful test opener, who would also make it to the AT test X1. So there is not really much to doubt Sehwag's ability. As I said before, selecting someone for ATX1 is not just about stats.

And Sehwag doesn't have a bad record in ODIs. In fact he is one of the main reasons for Ind good performances of late. But as I said in one of my posts that picking an ATX1 isn't about just stats. If it were than 'Statsguru' would be picking one by default.

In short against best of bowlers (mainly quicks and the point is already explained earlier) across the era bowling at their best, I see Sehwag to be better equipped to handle them than someone like Ganguly. Why? 1. Sehwag makes it to the AT test X1 as an opener "thus" showing his prowess in handling the quicks as well as new ball well 2. Sehwag is also a good stroke player and a match winner As I said, I would probably consider Ganguly for #5 or #6 position, also because he can also be used to bowl out a few overs. For me, the top 4 of an At11 should be extraordinary batsmen with proven ability against pace. Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Dravid and Sehwag are probably the top 4 batsmen that the country has produced. 3 of them play in the top 3 in tests, which is the most demanding of all formats and as I said shows your prowess. Though given your past record, you probably won't understand what's being said. And you are aslo more likely to take the two points I made above in isolotion. So it's better that we agree to disagree. I don't want to come b/w you and Ganguly :P

[zen]

Who's faced better pace attack? - Dada Who fares better in pace friendly conditions (SA, WI, Aus, Eng)? - Dada Who averages better as an opener? - Dada

If that's your line of argument then I have nothing to say. You probably don't even understand the difference b/w playing one or two quality bowlers in isolotation and playing an attack with 4 quality bowlers. For more on that you could contact Miandad on why he wasn't that successful against the WI as he was against some of the other sides. I haven't seen the stats because as I said before AT11 don't get picked based on stats alone. If that were the case then why bother with this thread, let the statsguru pick the 11

[thevortex]

Why has nobody considered Srikkanth? :) Him and Sehwag opening would be - if nothing else - an extremely interesting proposition for every spectator.

[thevortex]

It is extremely interesting to see how most teams featured here have Kumble but almost none of them have Harbhajan. Telling! And I agree certainly.