Is Tendulkar the second best batsman of all time?

[patriot]

Depends on how many chances he got,which you classify as dire straits, right? As Boss Bhai pointed out, most of the times when he is in, it will not be called a dire strait. Even the Chennai test we lost to Pakistan, if Sachin had stayed we would have won comfortably, just like the Chennai chase against england or in the last test. Then you wouldn't have called the situation a 'dire strait' and it wouldn't have still counted in favor of Sachin Also, isnt the whole thread about Sachin being no2 after Bradman? So if you admit his consistancy(consistancy and not perfection in every dept), would you also admit that the OP is right?

Absolutely not. His consistency is amazing he is definitely No.2 after Bradman as far as consistency is concerned. No doubt. It is his temperament in high pressure situations that I have no confidence in. There have been countless occasions where he has had the chance and failed us. Can Quickly recollect that 4th innings chase the the final and series deciding match in Chennai in that 2001 series against Aus. He scored a ton in our 1st innings ( after a 120 odd opening partnership between Das and Ramesh) and whenAus were on the rampage in the all important 4th innings, which was the series deciding innings he failed yet again. SEE WHAT LAXY DID...AS USUAL IN THAT MATCH WHEN THE PRESSURE PUMP WAS REALLY ON IN THE ALL IMPORTANT SERIES DECIDING INNINGS: http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63921.html If not for that brave partnership between Dighe and Bhajji...all the great work by Bhajji, VVS, RSD and SRT himself would have come to knot and we would have lost the series. Make SRT face Ambrose, Mcgrath, Donald and Akram on a really tricky pitch in a charity time pass match , he will bat like GOD. Absolutely. But when the pressure is on BIG TIME ...for a long time he will make the most chewtiya bowlers seem like legends. That is why he is NOT No.2

[Raghav_12]

That is why he is NOT No.2

Who is no. 2?

[CSK Fan]

Absolutely not. Make SRT face Ambrose, Mcgrath, Donald and Akram on a really tricky pitch in a charity time pass match , he will bat like GOD. Absolutely. But when the pressure is on BIG TIME ...for a long time he will make the most chewtiya bowlers seem like legends. That is why he is NOT No.2

Wrong, wrong and wrong. How do you define pressure pal? By all accoiunt by every cricketer, coach ex-cricketer who has met Sachin, there is no cricketer in the whole world who lives every moment of his life under such enormous pressure and expectations like Sachin does. These are facts and I can bring quotes to back it up. Yet he has deliverd so much! Do you mean to say he succeds under some pressure and fails under a different one? Does that even make sense to you? Pressure is not some stupid selective criteria you bring. Pressure is highly subjective. Are you seriously telling me that in the Chennai test where he got out, he didn't feel pressure on 0, he didn't feel pressure on 50, he didnt feel pressure on 100, he didn't feel pressure at 130, but suddenly he felt pressure at the exact score he got out? In that innings or in similar ones which you classify as his failures, at no point did he feel uncomfortable or try anything different till he got out. At most time he got unplayable deliveries. So the implication you are trying to prove that it was pressure which got his wicket is entirely up to your imagination. He would have been out to the same delivery even if he was batting first Do you seriously think Laxman was under presure in the last match he won? It was one of his best kncoks but he was under the least pressure of all our top order batsmen. The field was completely spread out, there were no catching fielders and the Aussies weren't even trying to get him out. The only way he could get out was by himself. What pressure?. Ishant was under 100 times more pressure than him because Aussies were going for the kill with him. And he is not even a batsmen yet he played out more deleviries than Laxman. So is Ishant also a better bat than Sachin? So with that knock does Ishant prove himself to be better than Sehwag using your logic and Sehwag can never measure upto Ishant until he plays a sterling knock like him? P.S - Stop bringing up selective innings to describe as Sachin's failure. If he had succeded in the same match you would have described it as not being a pressure innings. There are countless such selective examples of failures from Dravid, Laxman, Sehwag and Ponting to!

[patriot]

Who is no. 2?

No batsman has everything and can be said as someone having no chinks. Few contenders who were very consistent but played superbly under pressure: Sunny Gavaskar IVAR Sehwag - If he has thumping tours of South Africa and England and continues what he has been doing for 3 more years would firmly be my No.2 He has a huge flaw in being hopeless in the 4th innings, which is his only shortcoming but a big short coming admittedly. But no batter in the history of test cricket has tweaked the approach to test match batting so badly. No batter is even close to his ability to change test matches so quickly. And see his consistency. So far he has beaten both Gavaskar and Tendulkar in approaching , 3K , 4K, 5K, 6K and 7K runs in least number of innings.

[patriot]

Wrong' date=' wrong and wrong. How do you define pressure pal? By all accoiunt by every cricketer, coach ex-cricketer who has met Sachin, there is no cricketer in the whole world who lives every moment of his life under such enormous pressure and expectations like Sachin does. These are facts and I can bring quotes to back it up. Yet he has deliverd so much! [b']Do you mean to say he succeds under some pressure and fails under a different one? Does that even make sense to you? Pressure is not some stupid selective criteria you bring. Pressure is highly subjective. Are you seriously telling me that in the Chennai test where he got out, he didn't feel pressure on 0, he didn't feel pressure on 50, he didnt feel pressure on 100, he didn't feel pressure at 130, but suddenly he felt pressure at the exact score he got out? In that innings or in similar ones which you classify as his failures, at no point did he feel uncomfortable or try anything different till he got out. At most time he got unplayable deliveries. So the implication you are trying to prove that it was pressure which got his wicket is entirely up to your imagination. He would have been out to the same delivery even if he was batting first Do you seriously think Laxman was under presure in the last match he won? It was one of his best kncoks but he was under the least pressure of all our top order batsmen. The field was completely spread out, there were no catching fielders and the Aussies weren't even trying to get him out. The only way he could get out was by himself. What pressure?. Ishant was under 100 times more pressure than him because Aussies were going for the kill with him. And he is not even a batsmen yet he played out more deleviries than Laxman. So is Ishant also a better bat than Sachin? So with that knock does Ishant prove himself to be better than Sehwag using your logic and Sehwag can never measure upto Ishant until he plays a sterling knock like him? P.S - Stop bringing up selective innings to describe as Sachin's failure. If he had succeded in the same match you would have described it as not being a pressure innings. There are countless such selective examples of failures from Dravid, Laxman, Sehwag and Ponting to!

I am not !! Pressure is seriously on ..in a 4th innings series decider. Pressure is seriously on when batting with the tail and still some away from the target. Pressure is on when you are at 70/3 chasing an opposition 1st innings total of 550. I am not being selective - these are just facts. If you think they are very subjective, let us just agree to disagree.

[CSK Fan]

No batsman has everything and can be said as someone having no chinks. Few contenders who were very consistent but played superbly under pressure: Sunny Gavaskar IVAR Sehwag - If he has thumping tours of South Africa and England and continues what he has been doing for 3 more years would firmly be my No.2 He has a huge flaw in being hopeless in the 4th innings, which is his only shortcoming but a big short coming admittedly. But no batter in the history of test cricket has tweaked the approach to test match batting so badly. No batter is even close to his ability to change test matches so quickly. And see his consistency. So far he has beaten both Gavaskar and Tendulkar in approaching , 3K , 4K, 5K, 6K and 7K runs in least number of innings.

Not belittling Sehwag but how much of an impact has he had on India's win recently?(quite aq bit I know) More than Sachin? We won 2-0 even with him hardly contributing. So strike rate and 'turning things on its head' might not be the only correct or effective approach to test match cricket or the only things to use to rate a cricketer. Once again you are focusing on selctive parts of batting(strike rates or pressure innings) and are forgetting these things are only a part of batting and there are scores of other parts which make a batsman complete You don't ace your baord exams by top scoring in 2 subjects and flunking in the rest. a complete student will have a good measure of most. Just becaue someone scores more in your favoirtue parameter doesn't make him overall a better bat

[CSK Fan]

I am not !! Pressure is seriously on ..in a 4th innings series decider. Pressure is seriously on when batting with the tail and still some away from the target. Pressure is on when you are at 70/3 chasing an opposition 1st innings total of 550. I am not being selective - these are just facts. If you think they are very subjective, let us just agree to disagree.

So was the pressure more on Laxman or was it on Ishant. Maybe not at the start of the chase but towards the end. There were fielders surrounding him, Aussies were targeting his wicket and Laxman was in superb form. He would feel like he let down the team if he gave his wicket away. So does that make Ishant a better bat than Sachin and Sehwag? BTW the pressure is also on when you are 5 down on a Perth or a Johansburg wicket. Sachin has succeded in those scenarios. Do you mean to say he fails only under certain kinds of pressure? Arn't you being subjective about the definition of 'pressure;?

[Raghav_12]

No batsman has everything and can be said as someone having no chinks. Few contenders who were very consistent but played superbly under pressure: Sunny Gavaskar IVAR Sehwag - If he has thumping tours of South Africa and England and continues what he has been doing for 3 more years would firmly be my No.2 He has a huge flaw in being hopeless in the 4th innings, which is his only shortcoming but a big short coming admittedly. But no batter in the history of test cricket has tweaked the approach to test match batting so badly. No batter is even close to his ability to change test matches so quickly. And see his consistency. So far he has beaten both Gavaskar and Tendulkar in approaching , 3K , 4K, 5K, 6K and 7K runs in least number of innings.

I knew you will not give clear answer of this question becuase then onus will be on you to defend that person. You are kind of person who like to go in a boxing ring as invisible fighter so that you always attacking other fighter without worrying about defending yourself. Contrary other person, can never attack and always have to defend himself. You should not be looking for such advantages. You mentioned Sehwag as being no. 2. Can you give one example where he came in "dire straits" and played innings like Lara's 153? Where he shepherded tail against rampaging say McGrath? PS - Personally I have no problem in Sehwag becoming all time no. 2. That means India will continue to have great batting line up even after Sachin's retirement.

[gaurav92]

See Patriot the innings from VVS at mohali was no doubt a match winning one, but why do you deny the fact that it was Sachin's 98 that made us chase that modest target ? May be because your parameters of judgement say that it wasn't an innings under pressure, isn't it ? It was an innings that was played after a good partnership between Dravid and Sehwag and so there was no pressure on him ? Patriot, there was pressure pumping all the time, the pressure of chasing 450+ total in the 2nd innings, and knowing that there isn't much batting to come.Also the pressure of winning the opener Test in an Ind/Aus series.....You think pressure is only there in a fourth innings chase ? But the fact is, there is pressure on the batsmen anytime he is batting. MTC quoted rightly that VVS was under least pressure and batting with tail is perhaps a little advantageous for VVS.The opposition doesn't try and get him out, he bats with tail right through, and the tail wags a little, VVS scores a good 50 (without pressure in your words), and you come up here and say it was an innings under pressure, at the same time if SRT does the same, you come and say that the field was spread out, and the opposition went defensive against him..blah blah blah.Don't you think that its a double standard while judging ? You also pointed out that Sehwag is no.2 ahead of Sachin and may be even Gavaskar, alright ? Now can you please tell me, how many matches have they won for us in the fourth innings pressure chase ?I can't think of many.Yes they have played some great knocks in the first innings, but so has Sachin, in fact Sachin's average has been better than them in Tests, and in fact Sachin has got way better average than Sehwag in second innings.See you are comparing two batsman with completely different batting styles, temperament and mindsets. To sum it up, Sachin has got something which both Veeru and VVS don't possess, but you never complain that, do you ? You just say that Sachin is not like a VVS and Sehwag and Dravid, Dude every individual is different and I don't think that VVS and Veeru can ever be like Sachin, so stop this discussion here itself, its getting too far stretched out for nothing.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[littlemaster1982]

What about chasing 479 and we are 37/2 with 3 n00bs in the batting lineup ... ? I'am guessing since the total was 21 runs short of 500 it doesnt count ...

But, but, the scoreline was 346/3 at one time, so there was no pressure on Sachin. Check this post: http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1199899&postcount=89

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[akshayxyz]

There have been too many references to the "chennai chase 1999" Has anyone considered this partnership data - http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63828.html?innings=4;view=fow 6th 136 44.2 3.06 NR Mongia SR Tendulkar 5/82 (41.5) 6/218 (86.1) 7th 36 5.4 6.35 SR Tendulkar SB Joshi 6/218 (86.1) 7/254 (91.5) Until Mongia was there India were very much in hunt @RR of 3 or so. The moment he got out, and Joshi came. Sachin, with all the pain and fatigue, sensed the impending collapse and shot up run rate to 6+. Joshi played 8 run/ 20 ball innings. Some one can work out how many balls Sachin played out of those 34 deliveries and scored how many of those 36 runs. That too on a pitch like that, against bowlers like those, with pain and fatigue that much, with expectations that high. And yet people continue to dig out that one so-called-failure-to-finish to show Sachin down? According to you all arm-chair experts what should he have done - to take the game to finish? Shielding the tail - you say? Is increasing RR not the other way sheilding the tail? Then how much of tail shielding did VVS had to do in Mohali until Ojha came in? He played with almost no pressure, as he was 'injured' and most people had lost hope. It was better-than-nothing situation for him. As someone mentioned Ishant had more pressure than VVS. And when Ojha came in, the pressure was clearly visible on VVS and everyone on the field. How many times have you seen Sachin losing temper like that in similar / worse situations? Sachin has played to many matches, innings and has been in variety of situations more than once. With simple probability there are bound to be some 'failures' - that does not hide the fact that more often than not he has succeeded than most others. And there is at least one type of situation no one else has ever faced - the burden of expectations of billion people and still delivered at highest level.

[akshayxyz]

Also - in the partnership of 136 between Mongia and Sachin - mongia scored 52. At a run rate 3.06 (higher than other previous partnerships between top order batsmen) and Mongia's strike rate was 38.5 (less than 3 r.p.o.). Shame on you guys, who continue to refer to that innings as Sachin's failure - he more than succeeded - rest of the team failed. And since its a team game - team lost.

[yoda]

Also - in the partnership of 136 between Mongia and Sachin - mongia scored 52. At a run rate 3.06 (higher than other previous partnerships between top order batsmen) and Mongia's strike rate was 38.5 (less than 3 r.p.o.). Shame on you guys, who continue to refer to that innings as Sachin's failure - he more than succeeded - rest of the team failed. And since its a team game - team lost.

oh please, it is a team game, yet HE more than succeeded even though the team lost? when your team loses, no one succeeds, even if you are named GOD.

[akshayxyz]

Lets compare - Sachin's 136 out (failure) with Lara's so much hailed 153* match winning knock at bridgetown. Lara's knock: http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63839.html One good partnership of 133 runs with JC Adams - who played 38 runs/125 deliveries at RR of 3.2. That's comparable to Sachin's 136 partnership with Mongia - who played 52 / 135.. Both are similar until this point. After that - 10 runs with Jacobs in 3.4 overs @RR 2.7. Jacobs made 5 out in 12 deliveries. Assuming no extras Lara made 5 in other 10 deliveries. So did Lara shield or try anything special there? At similar stage - Sachin played with SB Joshi - tried to finish the game - scoring bulk of 34 runs in partnership with Joshi @ RR higher than 6+. You know what happened to India's innings after that. Lets look at Lara's monumental effort after that stage. 54 runs partnership with Ambrose - 17.4 overs @RR of 3.05. Ambrose played 39 deliveries. ( about 6.3 overs)!. So did Lara shield Ambrose? After Ambrose departed they (with Walsh) scored 9 runs in 10 balls. Out of that Walsh played 5 balls. What about shielding the tail here? This is almost exactly same as VVS @ mohali - but none convincingly better than Sachin @chennai@1999

[akshayxyz]

oh please, it is a team game, yet HE more than succeeded even though the team lost? when your team loses, no one succeeds, even if you are named GOD.

Exactly - then why he continues to be blamed for that defeat? My post was in response to people who continue going after Sachin's skin - that he failed to finish in 1999@Chennai and use it as nuclear weapon against his 4th innings/pressure situation performance!!

[yoda]

Exactly - then why he continues to be blamed for that defeat? My post was in response to people who continue going after Sachin's skin - that he failed to finish in 1999@Chennai and use it as nuclear weapon against his 4th innings/pressure situation performance!!

Well if you have a top order batsman who is there towards the end, the expectation is that he takes the team through to safety. It is standard expectation from any regular bat, not just Sachin. Over expectation may be, but that's just the way it is.

[Mohan470]

Sachin is the Best........:two_thumbs_up:

[King Tendulkar]

^ Thats what Viv Richards says as well:two_thumbs_up: In fact Viv says Sachin is best CRICKETER EVER!