Is Tendulkar the second best batsman of all time?

[OriginalCopy]

Is Tendulkar the second best batsman of all time? No ... its impossible to determine the hypotheticals across different eras ... He could be the best batsman of all times ... or may be lesser than the second best ... How could Bradman played his cricket in the scientific era with all his flaws analyzed; who can say ... ? How would Tendulkar have fared against uncovered pitches, crappy bats, and no armour; how can anyone determine that conclusively? Just my personal opinion.

[fineleg]

Patriot, SRT is a diff player today than what he was 2-3 years back. Back then, he was a dead man walking, hardly fit, barely in form, playing to survive. Today he is batting like a dream, slaying all comers, winning games, piling numerous records on the way. Prior to 2008, most of your criticisms about him not being a match winner were justifiable. But in the last 2-3 years to so, I think Sachin has addressed almost all the voids in his CV. Be it 4th innings performances (103* vs Eng, 53* vs Aus, 54 vs SL to name a few), performance in ODI tournament finals (his 100, 90 in CB series), being a prolific scorer in a series (entire 2010), ICC rankings/awards, setting world records (200 in a ODI innings) he's done it all in the last 3 years. So not sure, your criticisms are justified. ------ Lot of people might say, Sachin is able to do these things now because he plays for a superior team. But i dont quite think that explains his superlative performances. Yes, the strength of the team plays a role in the outcome. But Dravid & Laxman won more games with the bat playing with the same team as Sachin in the past. IMHO, what has worked for Sachin is that, he is playing with a diff mindset now. Sachin, as a person, is a perfectionist. He is very very meitculous by nature. As a result he used to over think situations. He used to walk in with too many preconceived thoughts on how he should progress in the innings, what he should accomplish in his innings etc. Players who perform well under pressure, normally dont overthink situations. I think this must have interfered with his performances in the past. This is also the reason why he did not fare well as a leader, as many times as a leader, you just have to trust your team mates and let them do their job and not try to micro manage them thru the match. But the Sachin of today, seems to be playing with an uncluttered mind. It is interesting to recall, that Sachin (after that famous 98 vs Pak in world cup 2003) mentioned that he went into bat in that innings with a blank mind - he had no specific plans for that innings, just wanted to go out & bat. When he approaches his game with that mindset, he seems to perform better. Even during his prime, he always had the game, only his mindset was in question. With that perfectly aligned with his game, he has reached surreal heights this year, which also happens to be his most successful year as a batsman. Goes to show how little things matter even for a great player. He is certainly the best of the modern era batsmen.

Very well put Bumper. You are right, 3 years ago, there were gaps in his CV and there were some doubts (at least in some of our minds on the "greatest modern batsman" tag for tests). He has filled most of those beautifully in the last year or two. Best of the modern batsmen certainly. There were some questions earlier, but he has erased that by filling all the gaps in the CV. Regarding patriot's question on if SRT had scored that 72 at Mohali, we'd never stop hearing abt it in ICF. Even VVS was praised at ICF, but yes it is possible that same achievement by SRT would have meant another few additional threads. But, its ok, as long as he is established as the best batsman, thats the more important thing to focus on.

[patriot]

While SRT is undoubtedly an all time great,SRT is a pure genius when it comes to gulping mediocre attacks. He unmatchable in this aspect. But then he can only score off, whats offered to him. A wayward Mitchell Johnson and 3rd rate support bowling cast that was able to do less damage to Paki batsmen on Eng greentops than the Paki bowlers were able to inflict on the Aussie batters. Facing such attack on Indian pitches...:nice: Now onto the numbers that the brigade doesn't want to see and wants me banned for: Sachin vs Aus when Mcgrath bowling: Avg 36.7 9 matches , 2 tons. http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=default;player_involve=2101;template=results;type=batting Sachin vs Aus when Mcgrath not bowling: Avg 73.12 e 22 matches, 9 tons http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=2;orderby=default;player_involve=2101;player_involve_type=none;template=results;type=batting It is not a coincidence. Think 99 WC, 2003 WC. All the Ind -Aud finals where Mcgrath is playing. What about Lara vs Mcgrath ? Lara has faced Mcgrath in 24 matches unlike 9 for SRT. Avged 46.38 in those 24 matches to SRT's 36.77 in 9 matches http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/52337.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=default;player_involve=2101;template=results;type=batting Yeah...that includes biatch slapping Mcgrath in that historic 4th innings chase. And they say he is Mcgrath's bunny. LOL.

[Karan114]

A wayward Mitchell Johnson and 3rd rate support bowling cast that was able to do less damage to Paki batsmen on Eng greentops than the Paki bowlers were able to inflict on the Aussie batters. Facing such attack on Indian pitches...:nice:

How did no.1 match winning Test bat Virender Sehwag go against such attack on Indian pitches, out of interest?

[Raghav_12]

You are right, 3 years ago, there were gaps in his CV and there were some doubts (at least in some of our minds on the "greatest modern batsman" tag for tests). He has filled most of those beautifully in the last year or two. Best of the modern batsmen certainly. There were some questions earlier, but he has erased that by filling all the gaps in the CV.

Completely agree with that. There were definite gaps in his CV some 3 years back. But he filled many of those with performances like in finals of CB series 2008, Chennai 2009 (vs England, where he finished where he had left some 10 years ago and many more so) and many more.

[fineleg]

How did no.1 match winning Test bat Virender Sehwag go against such attack on Indian pitches' date=' out of interest?[/quote'] To be fair, this question is not apt. Reason is Sehwag is wayward at times. He really plays well against good bowlers in Australia, and then some mediocre bowling in Indian pitch, he'll get out. So using Sehwag as a comparison is not too apt, since the guy selfdestructs at times.

[patriot]

How did no.1 match winning Test bat Virender Sehwag go against such attack on Indian pitches' date=' out of interest?[/quote'] He needs a challenge...Bangladesh bores him ..he has been a flop against them. Loved the way he pwned Saffies - Steyn, Morne Morkel and company with a triple Then..pwning Actor and Saqlain in their den with a triple before that. Was the only Indian who scored 2 tons on that disastrous 02 tour to NZ. Can't forget the brutal pwning of Murali Mendis and company. Ask Murali and Mendis which batsmen gives them nightmares in the Indian team. LOL.

[fineleg]

Completely agree with that. There were definite gaps in his CV some 3 years back. But he filled many of those with performances like in finals of CB series 2008' date=' Chennai 2009 (vs England, where he finished where he had left some 10 years ago and many more so) and many more.[/quote'] Yes, the 4th Inn chase, the matches in crunch situations, finishing matches in 4th Inn. He's filled the gaps. Maybe the major tournament win like WC2011 is missing, but he's not responsible singlehandedly to win that. We went far in 2003, but bowlers blew it in the finals.

[CSK Fan]

While SRT is undoubtedly an all time great,SRT is a pure genius when it comes to gulping mediocre attacks. He unmatchable in this aspect. But then he can only score off, whats offered to him. A wayward Mitchell Johnson and 3rd rate support bowling cast that was able to do less damage to Paki batsmen on Eng greentops than the Paki bowlers were able to inflict on the Aussie batters. Facing such attack on Indian pitches...:nice: Now onto the numbers that the brigade doesn't want to see and wants me banned for: Sachin vs Aus when Mcgrath bowling: Avg 36.7 9 matches , 2 tons. http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=default;player_involve=2101;template=results;type=batting Sachin vs Aus when Mcgrath not bowling: Avg 73.12 e 22 matches, 9 tons http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=2;orderby=default;player_involve=2101;player_involve_type=none;template=results;type=batting It is not a coincidence. Think 99 WC, 2003 WC. All the Ind -Aud finals where Mcgrath is playing. What about Lara vs Mcgrath ? Lara has faced Mcgrath in 24 matches unlike 9 for SRT. Avged 46.38 in those 24 matches to SRT's 36.77 in 9 matches http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/52337.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=default;player_involve=2101;template=results;type=batting Yeah...that includes biatch slapping Mcgrath in that historic 4th innings chase. And they say he is Mcgrath's bunny. LOL.

Dude you do realise that just because his average dips when McGrath is in the team, doesnt necessarily mean that his low average is only because of McGrath. What if Warne or one of the other had bowled a couple of magic balls to him, or what if he had got a couple of poor descisions from the umpires? A 9 match sample is small enough for these things to make a difference For example, SRTs average is very low when playing against Wasim and Waqar. Does that mean they troubled him a lot? They were able to get him out only once each in all the innings he played. Nor did he get out because of pressure applied by them. More often than not, he got out to an agressive shot

[triam]

Patriot, why dont u reply to BossBhai and Mannys threads before going on a different tangent??

[patriot]

Thats not true. I have watched each and every contest between SRT and Mcgrath in tests. He undoubtedly goes into an absolute shell when Mcgrath is bowling and looks to score of others. Mcgrath has dominated him. I challenge Bossbhai to bring up honest ball to ball records for Mcgrath Vs SRT. Honest being the key word here. How many test samples to you need against a single bowler ? 19 ? Fact : Mcgrath has dominated SRT even in India.

Dude you do realise that just because his average dips when McGrath is in the team, doesnt necessarily mean that his low average is only because of McGrath. What if Warne or one of the other had bowled a couple of magic balls to him, or what if he had got a couple of poor descisions from the umpires? A 9 match sample is small enough for these things to make a difference For example, SRTs average is very low when playing against Wasim and Waqar. Does that mean they troubled him a lot? They were able to get him out only once each in all the innings he played. Nor did he get out because of pressure applied by them. More often than not, he got out to an agressive shot

[patriot]

Below are some of the knocks where Baasu played a lot with the tail in tough situations ... Perth http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1991-92/IND_IN_AUS/IND_AUS_T5_01-05FEB1992.html J'burg http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1992-93/IND_IN_RSA/IND_RSA_T2_26-30NOV1992.html Capetown http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1992-93/IND_IN_RSA/IND_RSA_T4_02-06JAN1993.html Edgbaston http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1996/IND_IN_ENG/IND_ENG_T1_06-09JUN1996.html Kanpur vs SAF http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1996-97/RSA_IN_IND/RSA_IND_T3_08-12DEC1996.html Cape Town : http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1996-97/IND_IN_RSA/IND_RSA_T2_02-06JAN1997.html Melbourne : http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/IND_IN_AUS/SCORECARDS/IND_AUS_T2_26-30DEC1999.html Wankhede vs SAF : http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/RSA_IN_IND/SCORECARDS/RSA_IND_T1_24-28FEB2000.html Basin Reserve (On Wonderbra's) : http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2002-03/IND_IN_NZ/SCORECARDS/IND_NZ_T1_12-16DEC2002.html

Having watched each and every India match..I don't need to open any of the scorecards to know that none would be ones where SRT has taken India to a win like his contemporaries below. If you can come up with a single knock that compares in significance and VICTORY to the below.....do write back. :two_thumbs_up: 1) Dravid's in Adelaide in 2003 - 550+ 1st innings score by Aus...At 3 down for not too many Dravid scores 220+ and takes India over the rope in the 4th innings ? 2) 2001 Kolkata Dravid in follow on for a seemingly lost cause? 3) LAxman's last 2 match winning knocks in SL and in Ind against Aus ..in historically lost causes for India ? 4) LAxman Kolkata 2001 ? 5) Lara's 153 and 253 at Bridgetown and Kingston against a rampaging Mcgrath in 98/99?

[CSK Fan]

Thats not true. I have watched each and every contest between SRT and Mcgrath in tests. He undoubtedly goes into an absolute shell when Mcgrath is bowling and looks to score of others. Mcgrath has dominated him. I challenge Bossbhai to bring up honest ball to ball records for Mcgrath Vs SRT. Honest being the key word here. How many test samples to you need against a single bowler 19 ? Fact : Mcgrath has dominated SRT even in India.

What do you mean EVEN in India? Do you mean only in India? Because he has a healthy average of 46.33 against McGrath in Australia with scores of 61, 0, 116, 52, 45 and 4 in the 6 innings he played there. His average in India goes down basicaly because of one series he played in 2004 against McGrath while carrying his injury. As for ball by ball records, I don't think we have that for as far back as most of these matches. You remember him going into a shell because you remember his games from his injury period where he used to go into a shell against each and every bowler

[CSK Fan]

Having watched each and every India match..I don't need to open any of the scorecards to know that none would be ones where SRT has taken India to a win like his contemporaries below. If you can come up with a single knock that compares in significance and VICTORY to the below.....do write back. :two_thumbs_up: 1) Dravid's in Adelaide in 2003 - 550+ 1st innings score by Aus...At 3 down for not too many Dravid scores 220+ and takes India over the rope in the 4th innings ? 2) 2001 Kolkata Dravid in follow on for a seemingly lost cause? 3) LAxman's last 2 match winning knocks in SL and in Ind against Aus ..in historically lost causes for India ? 4) LAxman Kolkata 2001 ? 5) Lara's 153 and 253 at Bridgetown and Kingston against a rampaging Mcgrath in 98/99?

Changing goalposts again. And to think I was trying to argue reasonably with you. Do you believe Laxman's 2001 knock would have resulted a win if it was not for Harbhajan sterling performance in the same match? Even if Laxman had scored a 400 in that match, it would still have been drawn or lost if not for Harbhajjan's bowling heroics too. Can you point to a similar match where SRT scored and a bolwer took a hattrick and we still lost? Also, what Dravid did in Adeliede, isnt that exactly what Sachin did in the last match against Aus? Score a doule 100 and lead his team to a win Don't you seriously realise that you have lost all arguing points and are just making a fool of yourself or are you just trying to save a bit of face? Either case its not working In any sports, there are always some underdogs/under-rated players who give rare memorable performances and turn some matches on their head when least expected. These moments remain in our memory for long and are cherised by their fans. But no one is fool enough to believe(or no one till now) that this makes them better than players who perform consistantly over a long period of time and win games clinically and professionaly, instead of just waiting for those rare, near disaster moments to shine. And any true connesiuer will always bet on a race horse with a consistant speed record and not on the dark one which came from behind to win one or two lost races

[patriot]

He was defensive against Mcgrath even in the 2001 series..and looked to just play him off. If you remember the entire series well..you would know what I am talking about. But, I do agree he was not at his physical best in the 2004/5 series

What do you mean EVEN in India? Do you mean only in India? Because he has a healthy average of 46.33 against McGrath in Australia with scores of 61, 0, 116, 52, 45 and 4 in the 6 innings he played there. His average in India goes down basicaly because of one series he played in 2004 against McGrath while carrying his injury. As for ball by ball records, I don't think we have that for as far back as most of these matches. You remember him going into a shell because you remember his games from his injury period where he used to go into a shell against each and every bowler

[patriot]

I am not changing goal posts. My intuition of SRT falls pretty much in line with how Wisden have classified great knocks - only I am not able to put it eloquently in as many words. You tell me honestly if you disagree with their criteria or if something else must be done to alter the criteria. The Selection Criteria http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2001/jul/30select.htm Test Rating for Batting - A detailed note on the calculations 1. Batting Base points The Batting Base points are given for Runs scored. This Index is given a weightage of around 30%. Brian Lara, for his 375, gets the highest Index value. 2. Pitch Index Rhis index is determined based on the Runs scored in a match and number of wickets, which have fallen. Normalizing is done to take care of wide variations. Additional normalization is done to reflect the pre-WW1 situation with uncovered pitches. 3. Bowling Quality Index The Bowling Quality Index is based on the quality of bowlers who have bowled in the innings. A minimum of 4 and a maximum of 5 bowlers are taken for determining this Index value. Care is taken that the fifth bowler (e-g, Richards) does not lower the Index determination adversely. 4. Percentage of Score Index This reflects the % of team runs scored by the batsman. Surprisingly, Bannerman's 166 in the first test ever is still the highest % score in a completed innings. 5. Point of Entry Index This index reflects the entry point and distinguishes between 5 for 1, 27 for 2, 35 for 3 etc. For the first innings of the test, the index is absolute. For the other three innings, the Index is linked to a target score, exact for the last innings and national for the other two. 6. After point of Entry Index This index reflects the difference between entering at, say, 10 for 2 with a third wicket partnership of 100 and entering at 10 for 2 and the score going down to 20 for ¾. 7. Wkts falling while at crease Index This index reflect the number of wickets seen through by the batsman. An opening batsman, carrying his bat through, gets the highest value. 8. Support Index This reflects the support received by the batsman while he played his innings. 9. Shepherding of Tail enders Index This index is based on the way the batsman has nursed the 8-11 batsmen and built partnerships. The highest value is given for a batsman who has been involved in 4 signigicant partnerships. 10. Highest score Index This is the lowest rated parameter and is given to the innings if the same is the highest for the team. 11. Match Status Index This is complex index, which reflects the status of the match. The highest value is given to a successful and close fourth innings chase (Lara's 153*) or a great match-winning innings after a follow-on (Laxman's 281). 12. Result contribution Index. This index is based on the sum of the 11 index values and reflects the value of the players contribution, through the considered innings, to the match result. The match should be a win (x points) or a draw (0.3x points) for this index value to be allocated. Additional weightage is given for away wins. In addition, the Index values, which are calculated, are downsized proportionately if the innings is less than 100.

Changing goalposts again. And to think I was trying to argue reasonably with you. Do you believe Laxman's 2001 knock would have resulted a win if it was not for Harbhajan sterling performance in the same match? Can you point to a similar match where SRT scored and a bolwer took a hattrick and we still lost? Also' date= what Dravid did in Adeliede, isnt that exactly what Sachin did in the last match against Aus? Score a doule 100 and lead his team to a win Don't you seriously realise that you have lost all arguing points and are just making a fool of yourself or are you just trying to save a bit of face? Either case its not working

[Raghav_12]

He was defensive against Mcgrath even in the 2001 series..and looked to just play him off. If you remember the entire series well..you would know what I am talking about. But, I do agree he was not at his physical best in the 2004/5 series

What is wrong if he is showing respect to one of the all time great bowlers? If you had watched 99/00 Aus-Ind series downunder, you wouldn't have your doubt about his ability to play Mc'Grath (and that was the series where atleast three times, out of 6, he was out on dubious umpiring decisions). By the way I rate Curtley Ambrose over McGrath and in matches involving Ambrose Sachin averages more than 55. That is enough testimony for any sane person on whether he can play class fast bowling or not.

[CSK Fan]

I am not changing goal posts. My intuition of SRT falls pretty much in line with how Wisden have classified great knocks - only I am not able to put it eloquently in as many words. You tell me honestly if you disagree with their criteria or if something else must be done to alter the criteria. The Selection Criteria http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2001/jul/30select.htm Test Rating for Batting - A detailed note on the calculations 1. Batting Base points The Batting Base points are given for Runs scored. This Index is given a weightage of around 30%. Brian Lara, for his 375, gets the highest Index value. 2. Pitch Index Rhis index is determined based on the Runs scored in a match and number of wickets, which have fallen. Normalizing is done to take care of wide variations. Additional normalization is done to reflect the pre-WW1 situation with uncovered pitches. 3. Bowling Quality Index The Bowling Quality Index is based on the quality of bowlers who have bowled in the innings. A minimum of 4 and a maximum of 5 bowlers are taken for determining this Index value. Care is taken that the fifth bowler (e-g, Richards) does not lower the Index determination adversely. 4. Percentage of Score Index This reflects the % of team runs scored by the batsman. Surprisingly, Bannerman's 166 in the first test ever is still the highest % score in a completed innings. 5. Point of Entry Index This index reflects the entry point and distinguishes between 5 for 1, 27 for 2, 35 for 3 etc. For the first innings of the test, the index is absolute. For the other three innings, the Index is linked to a target score, exact for the last innings and national for the other two. 6. After point of Entry Index This index reflects the difference between entering at, say, 10 for 2 with a third wicket partnership of 100 and entering at 10 for 2 and the score going down to 20 for ¾. 7. Wkts falling while at crease Index This index reflect the number of wickets seen through by the batsman. An opening batsman, carrying his bat through, gets the highest value. 8. Support Index This reflects the support received by the batsman while he played his innings. 9. Shepherding of Tail enders Index This index is based on the way the batsman has nursed the 8-11 batsmen and built partnerships. The highest value is given for a batsman who has been involved in 4 signigicant partnerships. 10. Highest score Index This is the lowest rated parameter and is given to the innings if the same is the highest for the team. 11. Match Status Index This is complex index, which reflects the status of the match. The highest value is given to a successful and close fourth innings chase (Lara's 153*) or a great match-winning innings after a follow-on (Laxman's 281). 12. Result contribution Index. This index is based on the sum of the 11 index values and reflects the value of the players contribution, through the considered innings, to the match result. The match should be a win (x points) or a draw (0.3x points) for this index value to be allocated. Additional weightage is given for away wins. In addition, the Index values, which are calculated, are downsized proportionately if the innings is less than 100.

Without going into specific details of the quoted post, which I will delve into later, wasn't the whole purpose of the above to chose one sterling knock and not to rate batsmen on their overall career? Wasn't Sachin rated second best batsmen of all time by the same Wisden on a different set of parameters? http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2002/dec/13wisden.htm

[Raghav_12]

Having watched each and every India match..I don't need to open any of the scorecards to know that none would be ones where SRT has taken India to a win like his contemporaries below. If you can come up with a single knock that compares in significance and VICTORY to the below.....do write back. :two_thumbs_up: 1) Dravid's in Adelaide in 2003 - 550+ 1st innings score by Aus...At 3 down for not too many Dravid scores 220+ and takes India over the rope in the 4th innings ? 2) 2001 Kolkata Dravid in follow on for a seemingly lost cause? 3) LAxman's last 2 match winning knocks in SL and in Ind against Aus ..in historically lost causes for India ? 4) LAxman Kolkata 2001 ? 5) Lara's 153 and 253 at Bridgetown and Kingston against a rampaging Mcgrath in 98/99?

You have not answered my one of earlier questions. Can you point out one batting performance from RD or VVS Laxman where they did, what Monty Panesar could do in Cardiff in 2009?I mean have they ever saved their country from defeat when team was nine down, defeat was looming large, Australians were rampaging, match was opening test of a very very important series. (I can exaggerate situation a bit more as per your liking). If you can tell even one of such instances, I would admit that Sachin in not a great player (isn't it that you arguing for?)

[patriot]

Without going into specific details of the quoted post' date=' which I will delve into later, wasn't the whole purpose of the above to chose one sterling knock and not to rate batsmen on their overall career? Wasn't Sachin rated second best batsmen of all time by the same Wisden on a different set of paramenters?[/quote'] Agreed 100 %. This is for a singular knock, not for career. For career he was rated 2nd best by Wisden. And my point is that this Wisden rating was done in 2001 - I think he had played his best knocks already. Nothing of SRT that I have seen post 2001 compares to SRT circa 96-99. And he did it against some great attacks. ALthough he was not able to take India over the line even then by the stated parameters For 7-8 years then, Ponting was the most dominant bat. SRT has reigned supreme for the last 3 years - but where are the champion bowlers ? He is only going to go down on the WISDEN ratings.