Just hoist the damn flag in Lal Chowk!

[coffee_rules]

The ganpathi pandal in every street blasts music all day for a week to 15 days. But I guess we are talking every day all year along. The aarthis have loud dholaks and bells, but rarely on loud speakers, so unless you are living right next to a temple, one cannot hear it from a few blocks away. But a muezzin is calling all people around a km or two radius for prayer. But that's a slippery slope. It is noise pollution even if it happens right next also.

[Baad Indian]

How can female infanticide be linked to Hinduism? Have there been any Hindu Nationalist Leaders advising or provoking people to kill female babies ? There have been a large number of cases of female infanticide being reported among Sikh families as well related to which I read an article in the newspaper sometime back where Sikh leaders condemned such acts and also offered to take care of the babies at the Gurudwaras if there parents arent willing to raise the kids . On the other hands , we all know what Muslim Maulvis have been upto , openly declaring fatwas against women using mobile fones , salman khan doing Ganesh pooja and against famous muslim celebrities like Sania Mirza .

[varun]

When I was brought up female infanticides, it was in the following context (about inflexible ideologies)

Check out the number of female infanticides in rural Asia. This ideology has extracted more lives than the green ideology. Point being: being stubborn and intolerant = bad, being open minded = good

All stubborn ideologies can lead a person to commit crazy acts. Again, this is my whole point. We need to decrease intolerance, and make sure that people don't associate their stubbornly held ideologies with their honor, respect, and their whole life.

If you see the bigger picture, you will realise that the problem isn't just the ideology itself, but the fact that some people consider them to be inflexible, rigid, and intrinsically associated with their honor. (be it jihadist islam, the dowry system, biradari-system, caste system, etc).

[The Outsider]

If you read my post again you will find that I said they (women) are the walking reminder of oppression and radicalism. The logic was pretty simple : more the radicalism amongst the community the more women you will find wearing Burkah because it is not normal for a woman to wear that sort of a dress and women are easy targets for the radical types.

And what does it say about communities which have a female to male sex ratio 20% below the normal? How radicalized are they?

Yes I know you kinda grant a clean chit to your beloved Green ideology and absolve them of any and all crimes but tell us something new. And BTW the Govt has officially banned female infanticide (heck you cant even do gender determination tests in India) .. come back when there is a law against women wearing Burkah.

There might be laws against female infanticide, but the ground realities are totally different. What use is a law if it's not being implemented? What use is a law if 50 million women are classified as 'missing' by a report from UNICEF?

[The Outsider]

Female infanticide has got nothing to do with Hinduism. No Hindu leader condones it, and hardly anyone who kills a female child justifies it using Hinduism. On the other hand there are hardly any mullahs who would condemn burqa or would support reform of laws benefiting Muslim women. Remember Shah Bano.

Female infanticide is murder and illegal and that is why no one openly condones it. However, look at the ground realities and see 50 million missing women and a sex ratio of 0.86 in certain states and it's quite apparent that infanticide along with systematic discrimination against females is a widespread practice. You don't get a 20% difference from the normal female to male ratio, without significant local support. You can categorize it into whatever group you want - Hindu, Sikh, Punjabi, Haryanvi, Rajput, but the bottom line is that it is a widespread practice representing an extreme and twisted ideology. When the country has such huge problems to deal with, it's downright stupid to bring Burqas as signs of oppression and discrimination against women

There is widespread sympathy for terrorist orgainizations like Hamas, Hezbollah even the Taliban and Al Qaeda amongst the Muslim population, and it is purely based on religion.

Source?

[Desi Cartman]

2 issues : Female infanticide : Its very common in Hindu families. If one needs proof then watch out when someone blesses a married woman with sentences like " Putravati bhav , doodo nahao puto falo ". Green : Its quite complex actually , BB is right when he talks about the junoon of Muslim brotherhood ie taking over the world. There is some sachai wrt KP. Its very easy for govt to say that there are no more bombs exploding in Srinagar but whom are the terrorists going to kill when there are no non-muslims left in the area. It was planned and well executed mission to get KPs to move out. They banned Binidis, Sarees , sindoors etc . They put up posters stating that women seen without burqa will be killed. They sent notices to hindu families to move out by certain date. If you believe that all this happened without local support then only allah malik !

[The Outsider]

Its very easy for govt to say that there are no more bombs exploding in Srinagar but whom are the terrorists going to kill when there are no non-muslims left in the area.

Most civilians killed during the militancy were Muslims. The peak of violent insurgency was late 90s to early 00s by which time there were no Hindus left in the valley anyways. Not only civilian casualties, you can also look at infiltration numbers to see that terrorism has declined.

[seedhi]

Female infanticide is murder and illegal and that is why no one openly condones it. However, look at the ground realities and see 50 million missing women and a sex ratio of 0.86 in certain states and it's quite apparent that infanticide along with systematic discrimination against females is a widespread practice. You don't get a 20% difference from the normal female to male ratio, without significant local support. You can categorize it into whatever group you want - Hindu, Sikh, Punjabi, Haryanvi, Rajput, but the bottom line is that it is a widespread practice representing an extreme and twisted ideology. When the country has such huge problems to deal with, it's downright stupid to bring Burqas as signs of oppression and discrimination against women

What sort of logic is this? We are talking of a mainstream Islamic ideology which institutionalizes in various forms discrimination against women, non-muslims etc. By the way, non-muslim women in India fare much much better than muslim women in terms of freedom to work, education, health etc.

Source?

You need source for the fact that Hamas and Hezbollah (whose proxies have been catapulted to power in Gaza and Lebanon) have widespread support? The entire Taliban and Al Qaeda machinery is dependent on support from pakistan.

[The Outsider]

What sort of logic is this? We are talking of a mainstream Islamic ideology which institutionalizes in various forms discrimination against women, non-muslims etc.

No, we are not. We are talking about the fact that extremists cause huge harm irrespective of the ideology they follow. And the harm caused by Burqa clad women is miniscule compared to other extreme social evils which discriminate against women.

By the way, non-muslim women in India fare much much better than muslim women in terms of freedom to work, education, health etc.

Why wouldn't they when 50 million of them have been systematically eliminated from the statistics?

You need source for the fact that Hamas and Hezbollah (whose proxies have been catapulted to power in Gaza and Lebanon) have widespread support? The entire Taliban and Al Qaeda machinery is dependent on support from pakistan.

We are talking about Indian Muslims in case you have not followed the thread. Please substantiate your claim that Indian Muslims offer widespread support to Taliban and Al Qaida.

[seedhi]

And what does it say about communities which have a female to male sex ratio 20% below the normal? How radicalized are they? There might be laws against female infanticide, but the ground realities are totally different. What use is a law if it's not being implemented? What use is a law if 50 million women are classified as 'missing' by a report from UNICEF?

By the way, most of the "missing" women have not been"killed" .. they were aborted. The abortion rate in the West is much higher than in India. Does that make US/Europe even more radical? Either way this has got nothing to do with Hinduism, for example it is hardly prevalent in South India. Punjab, Haryana and Rajasthan are the places where it is prevalent due to a patriarchal society. On the other hand Islam has institutionalized discrimination against women in matters of personal law, divorce etc. No to mention the treatment to non-Muslims that they prescribe.

[The Outsider]

By the way, most of the "missing" women have not been"killed" .. they were aborted. The abortion rate in the West is much higher than in India. Does that make US/Europe even more radical?

Never said that the entire 50 million is a result on female infanticide - it's a result of a systematic discrimination against women on a completely different scale than whining about Burqas. Do people in the West discriminate between male/female while opting for an abortion?

Either way this has got nothing to do with Hinduism, for example it is hardly prevalent in South India. Punjab, Haryana and Rajasthan are the places where it is prevalent due to a patriarchal society. On the other hand Islam has institutionalized discrimination against women in matters of personal law, divorce etc. No to mention the treatment to non-Muslims that they prescribe.

As I said, it doesn't matter which category you want to put this barbaric practice under - Hindu, Punjabi, Haryanvi, Rajput. Every community will say on the face that they abhor the practice. Look at the reality, fix it, and then we can talk about trivial things like wearing a Burqa and I will fully support making it illegal. But the crux of discrimination against women in India is not the Burqa, but a whole gamut of other practices.

[seedhi]

No' date=' we are not. We are talking about the fact that extremists cause huge harm irrespective of the ideology they follow. And the harm caused by Burqa clad women is miniscule compared to other extreme social evils which discriminate against women.[/quote']The difference being that burqa has been accepted as a mainstream practice in Islam and any campaign against it is opposed by mullahs. And you just cannot separate the ideology from the extremists. You cannot separate Nazism from the acts perpetrated by the Nazis in Germany, communism from the horrors in Soviet Russia or North Korea, and Islam from whatever it has inspired.

Why wouldn't they when 50 million of them have been systematically eliminated from the statistics?

Are you suggesting that female foeticide is the reason why non-muslim women fare better in development indices? The difference betwen muslim and non-muslim women is evident even in south India.

We are talking about Indian Muslims in case you have not followed the thread. Please substantiate your claim that Indian Muslims offer widespread support to Taliban and Al Qaida.

I did not mention Indian Muslims. I was talking of Muslims globally, because that would be a more complete picture of what all Islam has inspired.

[The Outsider]

The difference being that burqa has been accepted as a mainstream practice in Islam and any campaign against it is opposed by mullahs. And you just cannot separate the ideology from the extremists. You cannot separate Nazism from the acts perpetrated by the Nazis in Germany, communism from the horrors in Soviet Russia or North Korea, and Islam from whatever it has inspired.

The numbers tell me that dead and missing women are also accepted as a mainstream practice in certain areas of India. Please explain how a 20% below the normal female to male ratio can arise if it's not a mainstream practice? Also, tell me which ideology has inspired the systematic elimination of females?

Are you suggesting that female foeticide is the reason why non-muslim women fare better in development indices? The difference betwen muslim and non-muslim women is evident even in south India.

You tell me. I haven't seen the numbers, but won't adding 50 million missing women alter the statistics?

I did not mention Indian Muslims. I was talking of Muslims globally, because that would be a more complete picture of what all Islam has inspired.

Then it should hold true in India as well - so please provide an authentic source stating that Taliban and Al Qaida have widespread support amongst Indian Muslims?

[seedhi]

Never said that the entire 50 million is a result on female infanticide - it's a result of a systematic discrimination against women on a completely different scale than whining about Burqas.

I think you have completely missed the point. From a religious point of view, female foeticide is a non-issue because no religious leader condones it. On the other hand Islam prescribes the burqa, and it is representative of a whole gamut of issues in Islam with women that has led to a situation where practically in every sphere the development of non-muslim women is more than muslim.

Do people in the West discriminate between male/female while opting for an abortion?

No, but aborting a boy is as heinous as a girl. I am not in favour of either.

As I said, it doesn't matter which category you want to put this barbaric practice under - Hindu, Punjabi, Haryanvi, Rajput.Every community will say on the face that they abhor the practice. Look at the reality, fix it, and then we can talk about trivial things like wearing a Burqa and I will fully support making it illegal. But the crux of discrimination against women in India is not the Burqa, but a whole gamut of other practices.

Thats the point. It is possible that 500 years ago people in what is Punjab/Haryana/Rajasthan today may not have condemned female infanticide and other discrimination. But as time changed and due to reform movements people's attitudes changed and this led to various legislation and awareness. In the case of burqa and other practices in Islam there is no evidence of such a reformative process. If anything hardline Islam is making a resurgence.

[The Outsider]

I think you have completely missed the point. From a religious point of view, female foeticide is a non-issue because no religious leader condones it. On the other hand Islam prescribes the burqa, and it is representative of a whole gamut of issues in Islam with women that has led to a situation where practically in every sphere the development of non-muslim women is more than muslim.

LOL! If it's a non issue, why is there a female to male ratio of 0.86 in certain states? Do you really expect religious or institutional leaders to start supporting murder in public?

No, but aborting a boy is as heinous as a girl. I am not in favour of either.

Irrelevant. The discussion is on women oppression and discrimination, not about the merits of abortion.

Thats the point. It is possible that 500 years ago people in what is Punjab/Haryana/Rajasthan today may not have condemned female infanticide and other discrimination. But as time changed and due to reform movements people's attitudes changed and this led to various legislation and awareness. In the case of burqa and other practices in Islam there is no evidence of such a reformative process. If anything hardline Islam is making a resurgence.

So, if there is such a widespread awareness against discrimination of females in Punjab, Haryana, and Rajasthan why do the ground realities paint a completely different picture? You call a 20% lower than normal female to male ratio a proof of reforms?

[seedhi]

The numbers tell me that dead and missing women are also accepted as a mainstream practice in certain areas of India. Please explain how a 20% below the normal female to male ratio can arise if it's not a mainstream practice?

Dead and missing women are as accepted in India as dead and missing boys and girls are accepted in the West. Women are more discriminated in India than in west. Religious leaders in India condemn it.

Also, tell me which ideology has inspired the systematic elimination of females?

Just now you were claiming it doesnt matter to which ideology we ascribe this phenomenon to.

You tell me. I haven't seen the numbers, but won't adding 50 million missing women alter the statistics?

It wasnt me but you claimed that the difference between the development of muslim and non-muslim women is due to female foeticide. Why dont you give proof? I simply stated a fact.

Then it should hold true in India as well - so please provide an authentic source stating that Taliban and Al Qaida have widespread support amongst Indian Muslims?

Err .. why should it hold true for Muslims in India? At different places the Islamic ideology has given birth to different issues. But the inspiration has always come from the scriptures, sunnah etc.

[The Outsider]

Dead and missing women are as accepted in India as dead and missing boys and girls are accepted in the West. Women are more discriminated in India than in west. Religious leaders in India condemn it.

Yeah, women are discriminated more in India, we all know that. Which discrimination is worse - the one which forces them to wear a Burqa or the one which kills and/or eliminates them systematically?

Just now you were claiming it doesnt matter to which ideology we ascribe this phenomenon to.

I was. But since you did not agree with me, I asked you which ideology is responsible for the phenomenon?

It wasnt me but you claimed that the difference between the development of muslim and non-muslim women is due to female foeticide. Why dont you give proof? I simply stated a fact.

Okay. Give me the statistics for your claim and I will accordingly factor in the 50 million and present you with the numbers based on some rudimentary calculations.

Err .. why should it hold true for Muslims in India? At different places the Islamic ideology has given birth to different issues. But the inspiration has always come from the scriptures, sunnah etc.

Why shouldn't it hold true for Muslims in India? You were the one painting Muslims with a generic brush. What makes Indian Muslims different? And, if you are talking about Muslims outside India that's irrelevant to the discussion. If you have any credible sources stating there is widespread support for Taliban and Al Qaida, please post it here.

[seedhi]

LOL! If it's a non issue' date=' why is there a female to male ratio of 0.86 in certain states? Do you really expect religious or institutional leaders to start supporting murder in public? [/quote']It is a non issue religiously. It has more to do with the patriarchal society in those places. Look the skewed sex ratio is an issue even in pakistani punjab http://economics-files.pomona.edu/GarySmith/Econ190/PakistanSexRatio.pdf . It has nothing to do with religion, rather the social structure.

Irrelevant. The discussion is on women oppression and discrimination, not about the merits of abortion.

Yes, so suggesting that sex selective abortions is akin to social acceptance of killing girls is like suggesting that abortion is akin to acceptance of killing children in general. I agree discrimination should be discussed, not abortion itself.

So, if there is such a widespread awareness against discrimination of females in Punjab, Haryana, and Rajasthan why do the ground realities paint a completely different picture? You call a 20% lower than normal female to male ratio a proof of reforms?

As I said this is not a religious matter. Sex ratio in pakistan is similar to that in India.

[The Outsider]

It is a non issue religiously. It has more to do with the patriarchal society in those places. Look the skewed sex ratio is an issue even in pakistani punjab http://economics-files.pomona.edu/GarySmith/Econ190/PakistanSexRatio.pdf . It has nothing to do with religion, rather the social structure.

Again, completely irrelevant. Looks like you have nothing to say and are just throwing random red herrings around. Let me restate - it doesn't matter which ideology is responsible for the skewed sex ratio : 1. As a social problem it's downright stupid to bring oppression of women through Burqas into the frame when such a huge discrimination problem exists through other means. 2. Your example of Pakistan should imply according to your reasoning, that Pakistanis are not religious at all because the Quran prohibits female infanticide. 3. This only shows that any ideology followed to the extreme results in a lot of problems.

Yes, so suggesting that sex selective abortions is akin to social acceptance of killing girls is like suggesting that abortion is akin to acceptance of killing children in general. I agree discrimination should be discussed, not abortion itself.

Then discuss discrimination - why are you bringing irrelevant things like abortion rates in the West into the discussion?

As I said this is not a religious matter. Sex ratio in pakistan is similar to that in India.

Not sure how many times I have to state it to get through - if you don't want to take it as a religious matter, don't. It does not change the fact that it is much much bigger issue than Burqa clad women.

[seedhi]

Yeah' date=' women are discriminated more in India, we all know that. Which discrimination is worse - the one which forces them to wear a Burqa or the one which kills and/or eliminates them systematically?[/quote']The Burqa thing is a religious issue, female foeticide isnt. Malaria kills many more people than AIDS, but do we stop talking about AIDS?

I was. But since you did not agree with me, I asked you which ideology is responsible for the phenomenon?

Its due to the patriarchal structure of the society in south asia. pakistan's sex ration is similar to Indias, so its not a religious issue.

Okay. Give me the statistics for your claim and I will accordingly factor in the 50 million and present you with the numbers based on some rudimentary calculations.

Everything is in percentages. How does factoring in 50 million change the percentage. And you can look up the Sachar committee report, it has such statistics, or the census 2001.

Why shouldn't it hold true for Muslims in India? You were the one painting Muslims with a generic brush. What makes Indian Muslims different? And, if you are talking about Muslims outside India that's irrelevant to the discussion. If you have any credible sources stating there is widespread support for Taliban and Al Qaida, please post it here.

If the discussion is about Indian Muslims then what I said is irrelevant, but if the discussion is on Islam then it is relevant.