ravishingravi Posted April 28, 2011 Posted April 28, 2011 ^In my lifetime, it has been the lowest I have seen. Btw I was not talking about Country although even that has hit all time lows. I was talking about the off field problems with players. If you know me, I am not a Pak basher, but if I list down some instances over last say 4-6 years to a person not aware of cricket or history of Pakistan cricket, the obvious question would be how are they still playing or allowed to play. 90s were a great opportunity for Pak cricket. Legacy of Imran was still strong and the team was most talented in the world, but they were happy with tag of "unpredictable".
Ultimate_Game Posted April 28, 2011 Author Posted April 28, 2011 ^^ hahahaha :hysterical: Khayali pulaoo. Thanks for the laugh. Haan mere laal sab kyali pulao :cantstop: Guess they didn't lose to Zim, Eng, SL etc. at home after the advent of neutral umpires. And maybe the fact that a team going 18-4 or so against another team suddenly became 0-5 in the WC games :haha: As Steve Waugh pointed out in his book and as everyone knows Pakis' record was more due to home umpiring than anything else. And the stats suggest the same. Why are people denying that Pak. were a better team in 90s and 80s ? Ball tampering or not they had a stronger team. This decade things have changed substantially and India has soared way ahead. I can't blame Pak. posters taking comfort from past achievements esp. considering the last 4 years for them both in cricketing and non cricketing terms. I disagree with the statement that Pak team were "stronger" in 90s. How do you justify that? They didn't win a series in WI, Aus or SA when they were supposedly so strong. Plus if you factor in their home record after the advent of neutral umpires the story becomes all the more clearer. Pakis actually lost to Zim at home!!! Can you imagine a "great team" losing Test series at home to Zim?
ravishingravi Posted April 28, 2011 Posted April 28, 2011 Haan mere laal sab kyali pulao :cantstop: Guess they didn't lose to Zim, Eng, SL etc. at home after the advent of neutral umpires. And maybe the fact that a team going 18-4 or so against another team suddenly became 0-5 in the WC games :haha: As Steve Waugh pointed out in his book and as everyone knows Pakis' record was more due to home umpiring than anything else. And the stats suggest the same. I disagree with the statement that Pak team were "stronger" in 90s. How do you justify that? They didn't win a series in WI, Aus or SA when they were supposedly so strong. Plus if you factor in their home record after the advent of neutral umpires the story becomes all the more clearer. Pakis actually lost to Zim at home!!! Can you imagine a "great team" losing Test series at home to Zim? They were certainly stronger than the Indian side of 90s who were pure home bullies. I am not saying they were world beaters but they had enough talent in their team to win in all conidtions. They won in England twice in 90s, they drew in SA and they only playe done test series in WI to my knowledge. Man to man they were stronger than India no question.
cricketlover Posted April 28, 2011 Posted April 28, 2011 Haan mere laal sab kyali pulao :cantstop: Guess they didn't lose to Zim, Eng, SL etc. at home after the advent of neutral umpires. And maybe the fact that a team going 18-4 or so against another team suddenly became 0-5 in the WC games :haha: As Steve Waugh pointed out in his book and as everyone knows Pakis' record was more due to home umpiring than anything else. And the stats suggest the same. I disagree with the statement that Pak team were "stronger" in 90s. How do you justify that? They didn't win a series in WI, Aus or SA when they were supposedly so strong. Plus if you factor in their home record after the advent of neutral umpires the story becomes all the more clearer. Pakis actually lost to Zim at home!!! Can you imagine a "great team" losing Test series at home to Zim? whats your point? India lost a series to Zimbabwe too. And being stronger than India doesnt mean whipping Aus or SA. India still havent done that to either teams away despite being no.1
Dhruv200 Posted April 28, 2011 Posted April 28, 2011 whats your point? India lost a series to Zimbabwe too. And being stronger than India doesnt mean whipping Aus or SA. India still havent done that to either teams away despite being no.1 India didnt become no.1 team having home umpires where as pakistan never dominated like India when they were no.1 pakistan still havent won a test series in west indies australia south africa . India already won twice in west indies ( we are talking about strong west indies side not a minnow side:hysterical:)
bhanu Posted April 28, 2011 Posted April 28, 2011 India didnt become no.1 team having home umpires where as pakistan never dominated like India when they were no.1 pakistan still havent won a test series in west indies australia south africa . India already won twice in west indies ( we are talking about strong west indies side not a minnow side:hysterical:) to dominate sum1 u gota play them and in the 90s india barely played pakistan cuz dey were afraid :afraid:
Dhruv200 Posted April 28, 2011 Posted April 28, 2011 to dominate sum1 u gota play them and in the 90s india barely played pakistan cuz dey were afraid :afraid: Oh yea according to ur lahori logic india chickened out india scared may be bradistani brothers would be happy with ur words :hysterical:
jonas10 Posted April 28, 2011 Posted April 28, 2011 whats your point? India lost a series to Zimbabwe too. And being stronger than India doesnt mean whipping Aus or SA. India still havent done that to either teams away despite being no.1 Cricketlover - which test series did India lose to Zimbabwe IN INDIA? FYI the immortal Pakistani team did lose to Zimbabwe in Pakistan in our life time im not talking like 1950s or something.
Ultimate_Game Posted April 28, 2011 Author Posted April 28, 2011 whats your point? India lost a series to Zimbabwe too. And being stronger than India doesnt mean whipping Aus or SA. India still havent done that to either teams away despite being no.1 You are comparing apples and oranges. India's away was always dismal until recently and India lost to Zim AWAy. But at home there was no impact on India's record even after neutral umpires as I have stated in one of my other threads (Impact of Neutral umpires on subcontinental teams). But Pak who had such an amazing record at home before neutral umpires suddenly even started losing to sides like Zim at home! This was my point, i.e. the Pakistan team wasn't that great - it was "home umpiring" on the backs of legends like Shakoor Ranas and Hyder Alis that made the team "great". to dominate sum1 u gota play them and in the 90s india barely played pakistan cuz dey were afraid Didn't India play Pakistan 3 times in WC games in 90s and care to remind me what was the outcome? They were certainly stronger than the Indian side of 90s who were pure home bullies. I am not saying they were world beaters but they had enough talent in their team to win in all conidtions. They won in England twice in 90s, they drew in SA and they only playe done test series in WI to my knowledge. Man to man they were stronger than India no question. That may be your opinion but not shared by many. Pakistan may have done well in a couple of series, generally against Eng, but on the other hand they lost at home to the likes of Zim, SL and Eng as well. How can a team who is supposedly so strong lose at home to such opponents? At best Pakistan were inconsistent and unpredictable, nothing less and nothing more. But to portray them as world beaters is a fallacy. Plus if they were so much better than India in 90s how come they played Ind in 3 WC games in 90s and didn't even win one? The truth is Pakistan's records were due to their "home umpiring" and not "great" team. As further evidence the results of Ind-Pak games on neutral venues paint a very different picture than the overall stats boosted by Pak's record in home games in Pak and Sharjah... http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;host=1;host=15;host=16;host=17;host=2;host=23;host=25;host=26;host=29;host=3;host=30;host=4;host=46;host=5;host=8;host=9;opposition=7;orderby=won;team=6;template=results;type=team Since 1985 India and Pakistan have played 40 games on neutral venues (not including Sharjah) and guess what the honors are even. Now how come the record suddenly becomes 18-4 in Sharjah when on neutral territory Pak can't beat India consistently nad have yet to even win a game against India in WC? This is not a small sample we are talking about, it's around 40+ games we are referring to. Anyone who has read "Freakenomics" knows why the stats are tilted in Pak's favor due to Sharjah & home record. After all you won't get those "home umpires" to help bowlers like Aaquib Javed take hattricks or not give Paki batsmen not out (especially LBW) or refuse to call no ball even when the bowlers keep on bowling bouncers which the batsmen can't even reach
Ultimate_Game Posted April 28, 2011 Author Posted April 28, 2011 By the way along with "home umpiring" here's another reason for the "greatness" of Pakistan team in the earlier days... pls note the sources I am quoting are not Indian media and pls feel free to google the related incidents for more details http://legacy.guardian.co.tt/archives/2006-09-26/SA-8.html http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10624473 These articles provide an amazing insight into what went on in Paki cricket at home and why they have a stellar record at home or Sharjah. Here are some of the excerpts from the articles... One of the most bizarre - and blatant - instances of ball tampering occurred during New Zealand's tour of Pakistan in the autumn of 1990. From the off, New Zealand expressed deep reservations about the way that the Pakistan bowlers got the ball to reverse swing, and the appearance of the ball. Most dismissed this as sour grapes as the tour had been in trouble before it started. Several leading New Zealanders opted out of making the trip, leading to Imran Khan also absenting himself after protesting at what he believed would be a "mismatch". And then when the Pakistan Cricket Board suggested appointing neutral umpires, Martin Crowe, New Zealand's captain, said that it had to be "better than having two Pakistani umpires". Unsurprisingly, the PCB did an about-turn and dropped the plan. In the opening Test at Karachi, New Zealand were twice bowled out for under 200 as Pakistan, thanks to 203 from Shoaib Mohammad, won by an innings. In the second Test at Lahore, Martin Crowe remembered that he encountered reverse-swing for the first time on his way to a second-innings hundred. "Six supposed outswingers [from Wasim Akram] suddenly became six lethal inswingers. I had never seen it before and I became curious." During the innings, Crowe dropped a delivery from Abdul Qadir at his feet and bent down to pick it up and lob it back to the bowler. "It was totally mutilated on one side with two or three deep scratches gouged out," he said. "I complained to the umpires but they did nothing." Later in the day the ball went out of shape and was changed. As it was thrown to the boundary by the umpires, Willie Watson and Mark Priest rushed to intercept it. "It bore no resemblance to a cricket ball," Crowe claimed. The pair took it back to the changing-room but, so Crowe noted, Intikhab Alam, the Pakistan manager, came in and took it and it was never seen again. Ian Taylor, the New Zealand manager, made an official complaint at the end of the match, but it was dismissed with the officials stating that the condition of the ball resulted from a rough outfield and advertising hoardings. "We accepted that Pakistan were the better team," Crowe added, "but we were not going to accept what they were doing with the ball." Chris Pringle, at the time New Zealand's opening bowler, decided to take the law into his own hands. "There was something going on," he recalled in his autobiography Save The Last Ball For Me. "And whether what I did was the right or wrong way to make the ball look as it did in the next Test, I had to try it." After another resounding defeat at Lahore, several of the New Zealanders experimented in the nets with scoring one side of an old ball with bottle tops. "With that technique, even guys like Mark Greatbatch and Martin Crowe were swinging the ball miles in the air," Pringle wrote. "We practised long and hard in the nets and were quite excited about the results we were getting with it." Crowe admitted that he ran in to bowl his normal inswingers "only to see the ball curve the other way ... I'd never bowled outswingers in my life!" On the morning of the first day of the final Test at Faisalabad, Pringle decided to put what he had learned into practice. He found an old bottle top, cut it into quarters, covered the serrated edge with tape, leaving a sharp point exposed. At the first drinks interval the umpires did not ask to look at the ball and, with Pakistan making sedate progress, Pringle started scratching the ball with the bottle top. Pakistan crashed from 35 for 0 to 102 all out. Pringle finished with his Test-best figures of 7 for 52. "Neither umpire showed any concern or took any notice in what we were doing even though, at the end of the innings, the ball was very scratched," Pringle noted. "One side was shiny but there were lots of grooves and lines and deep gouges on the other side. It was so obvious. It was ripped to shreds ... one side of the ball had been demolished. The umpires were walking across to each other and talking quite a lot. I sensed that they could tell what was going on ... but they didn't want to get involved in anything controversial." However, while the men in white remained implacable, others were wise to what was happening. Pringle recalled that as he left the stadium after taking his seven wickets on the first day, a local dignitary tapped him on the shoulder and said: "Pringle, it is fair now. Both teams are cheating." Although the umpires did not check the ball during each session, they did have it during intervals and at the close. And as the game wore on, Pringle became deliberately obvious in an attempt to get a reaction, even gouging the ball as he talked to the umpire. Still nothing was said. So eagerly was he vandalizing the ball that at one stage he cut himself on the jagged bottle top. Even the sight of a bowler with blood freely flowing from a sliced finger did not cause any disquiet as far as the officials were concerned. Pringle finished with 11 for 152 after taking 2 for 190 in the first two matches I'd love to know what Shahid Afridi was actually trying to achieve by biting the ball during Pakistan's one-day match against Australia in Perth. Afridi has offered no real explanation and it remains a mystery. Occasionally players bite off loose bits of string and I thought he might use something like that as an excuse. The resulting uproar has reignited the debate about ball tampering. Some famous figures have suggested over the years that bowlers be allowed to doctor the ball more than they are now allowed, but I believe the rules are about right as they stand. Players are allowed to shine the ball, but not rough it up. To change this rule would be dangerous because where would the ball doctoring stop? The umpires would have a very difficult time trying to control the situation. Of course a New Zealand team I was in performed a very famous bit of ball tampering in Pakistan, retribution for what the home team had been doing. Chris Pringle was the major beneficiary in that 1990 test in Faisalabad, taking 11 wickets after we went to work with a bottle top. We had practised roughing the ball up with the bottle top in the nets before the test and I even managed to get some devastating late swing on the ball. Pakistan were the masters of ball tampering, and got away with it for 15 or 20 years because no one really knew what was going on.
Bumper Posted April 28, 2011 Posted April 28, 2011 Most of Indian fans are celebrating the WC win like there's no tomorrow but deep in their hearts know that they may win WCs but they lost the one match that counted and which they would give anything to win. That's right folks I am talking about the Kitply Cup. To many Indian fans it was a bitter pill to swallow and the memories still refuse to die. Said one Indian fan with a painful expression on his face "WC win is nice but I wish we had won the Kitply Cup". Such emotions were widespread and I doubt the Kitply Cup loss will ever be covered by this, or any future, WC win. Some of the fans from other parts of the world may not be aware of the context behind that all important game. I doubt it but to clarify the context, and cricket is nothing without context, for ppl who are not aware of the game let me give you the background. Normally cricket games between India and Pakistan are seldom low profile but this game was something to behold. Even Wisden's classification of the game as "Biggest cricket game ever played" doesn't do justice to the game. Without further ado here's the complete story... It had been quite a while since Pak team had won an important game against their arch rivals. After those glorious wins in the deserts of Sharjah which every world cricket fan still talks about nostaligically and which Wisden has termed "epitome of cricketing brilliance", Pak had begun slipping in the WCs. Surely 92 was an aberration, 96 was luck, 99 was clearly "fixed" but after 2003 Pak couldn't hide away from the fact that India was getting the upper hand in crucial games. Not since 1985 World Championship of Cricket loss to India had Pakistan found itself in such a situation. And after the 2007 WC fiasco and T20 final loss to India Kitply Cup was the moment of truth for both the teams. In anticipation of widespread talk of the game the game was covered by nearly all major media world wide including BBC and CNN. India, captained by MS Dhoni, were the clear favorites but the tag doesn't mean much in an Indo-Pak game. In one of the greatest upsets in cricketing history and a tale which comes second only to David slaying Goliath (which some cricket watchers still debate), Pakistan came out on top. That win totally changed the dynamics of the rivalry with Pakistan on top for the next few years at least. For Indian fans it was the moment of bitter truth and many effigies of MS Dhoni were burnt that night. In Pakistan scenes couldn't be more different with impromptu processions being carried out in all parts of Pakistan. There were all night parties to celebrate the historic win and you could be forgiven to think you had walked in the middle of a war going by amount of gun firing. The revelry lasted a week and hardly anyone went to work for much longer. In fact schools and colleges were closed for 2 weeks after the win. There was open top bus ride for the victorious team with banners like "Pakistan - Kitply Cup Champions" adorning the streets with fans dancing on the streets. Experts from both India and Pakistan agree that it was a watershed moment in Indo Pak rivalry. As per Pakistan experts the win was even more memorable as it came on the back of great performances by youngsters such as Misbah ul Haq and Shahid Afridi. Well renowned Pakistan expert Aamer Sohail said "India can have the WCs but we would prefer to have important wins like Kitply Cup which show that India still can't measure up to Pakistan when it matters such as Sharjah and Kitply Cup". Pakistani fans were even more vociferous in their support for their team. Said one fan "Misbah has redeemed himself after that T20 Cup final shot and these are the moments I will always cherish". Another fan butted in saying "This is what matters most to us and we are the champions" and broke out in an impromptu dance in the middle of the street and quickly joined by others. Indian experts still look at the game as an opportunity lost and what might have been. Bishen Singh Bedi said "It was clear we weren't ready for the big game. BCCI, leadership team and Dhoni should all take the blame for such an ignominious defeat. The cricket team should not be allowed to enter India again and should be dropped in the Bay of Bengal". And this was one of the more restrained reaction from Indian experts and fans. The change in this great rivalry can be summed up by this exchange between the fans of the two teams... Ind fan: Hamare paas 2 World Cups, 1 Champions Trophy, 1 20 Cup aur Test No. 1 ranking hai Pak fan: Hamaare paas Kitply Cup hai There are no comebacks for such a brutal response and who can blame Pakistan fans! After all there have been 10 world cups but only one Kitply cup. :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: Absolutely brilliant Ultimate_Game! Thoroughly enjoyable read. I'd suggest you add a delusion meter to the OP to graphically illustrate the padosee mindset.
asterix Posted April 28, 2011 Posted April 28, 2011 By the way along with "home umpiring" here's another reason for the "greatness" of Pakistan team in the earlier days... pls note the sources I am quoting are not Indian media and pls feel free to google the related incidents for more details http://legacy.guardian.co.tt/archives/2006-09-26/SA-8.html http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10624473 These articles provide an amazing insight into what went on in Paki cricket at home and why they have a stellar record at home or Sharjah. Here are some of the excerpts from the articles... :omg: :headshake: @ Paki Cheaters..
Ultimate_Game Posted April 28, 2011 Author Posted April 28, 2011 :omg: :headshake: @ Paki Cheaters.. Essentially if you take away "home umpiring" and "ball tampering" all Pakis are left with is the Kitply Cup :cantstop:
THX_1138 Posted April 28, 2011 Posted April 28, 2011 Haan mere laal sab kyali pulao :cantstop: Guess they didn't lose to Zim, Eng, SL etc. at home after the advent of neutral umpires. And maybe the fact that a team going 18-4 or so against another team suddenly became 0-5 in the WC games :haha: As Steve Waugh pointed out in his book and as everyone knows Pakis' record was more due to home umpiring than anything else. And the stats suggest the same. I disagree with the statement that Pak team were "stronger" in 90s. How do you justify that? They didn't win a series in WI, Aus or SA when they were supposedly so strong. Plus if you factor in their home record after the advent of neutral umpires the story becomes all the more clearer. Pakis actually lost to Zim at home!!! Can you imagine a "great team" losing Test series at home to Zim? they had imran, waqar and wasim in the ranks. aquib javed joined in the fun at times too... we had venkatpathy raju, narendra hirwani, and doda ganesh in our ranks. were it not for some dazling innings from sachin in sharjah and at home (both) against australia, ganguly's mavericks in toronto and towards the end of the decade (and of course in bangladesh), and a combined effort of our spinners and azhar to defeat england 3-0 and south africa 2-1 at home, we had absolutely nothing to cheer for in the 90s. heck between 1996 and 2002, sri lanka enjoyed a a positive win-loss ratio against us.
Ultimate_Game Posted April 28, 2011 Author Posted April 28, 2011 they had imran, waqar and wasim in the ranks. aquib javed joined in the fun at times too... we had venkatpathy raju, narendra hirwani, and doda ganesh in our ranks. were it not for some dazling innings from sachin in sharjah and at home (both) against australia, ganguly's mavericks in toronto and towards the end of the decade (and of course in bangladesh), and a combined effort of our spinners and azhar to defeat england 3-0 and south africa 2-1 at home, we had absolutely nothing to cheer for in the 90s. heck between 1996 and 2002, sri lanka enjoyed a a positive win-loss ratio against us. That's the whole point! Even with players of the caliber of Dodda Ganeshs, Hrishikesh Kanetkars, Jacob Martins etc. we did decently well. If pakistan had so called great players how come they didn't achieve much? Truth is their record was due to "home umpiring" and "ball tampering" as without it they wouldn't be nearly as good as the records make them out to be.
bhanu Posted April 28, 2011 Posted April 28, 2011 Didn't India play Pakistan 3 times in WC games in 90s and care to remind me what was the outcome? BAWHAHAHAHA
Ultimate_Game Posted April 29, 2011 Author Posted April 29, 2011 Didn't India play Pakistan 3 times in WC games in 90s and care to remind me what was the outcome? BAWHAHAHAHA I know it must hurt... plus there have been 2 more matches added since And I'm not even counting the T20 Cup results :haha:
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