Congrats England -No.1 test side in the world

[wobblydoggy]

That's not the point, and you pretty much know it. I directly refuted your claims about the legitimacy of this side being known as an England team and you're backtracking. Again, there's no shame in it, the ECB are consciously allowing the loophole because they are benefitting from it. I'm merely pointing it out like others have done for a long while. Don't shoot the messenger.

So you do not benefit from a country twenty times our size and a nation in thrall to the game of cricket? We use the rules as they are, all of our players are within the rules, most of the SA so called players all had English lineage. In a world of mass migration this issue is going to become more prevalent not less IMHO

[Fontaine]

So you do not benefit from a country twenty times our size and a nation in thrall to the game of cricket? We use the rules as they are, all of our players are within the rules, most of the SA so called players all had English lineage. In a world of mass migration this issue is going to become more prevalent not less IMHO

That's an incorrect analogy. If you want to go down that route then you might as well argue about the weather conditions that allow cricket in Australia to be played almost throughout the year vs countries like England/Ireland where it's really only possible in spring/summer. Again, WHO is talking about the rules/loopholes? That's not in dispute. The only statement I made was that it's not a English side and I've seen nothing so far to refute that. Especially considering guys like Morgan/KP don't consider/call themselves Englishmen. I thought Atherton's column made that pretty clear. Jonathan Trott is another player who grew up/learned his cricket in SA playing for SA under 19s. His parents aren't English but claim English "descent" from 2 generations ago. You think Trott considers himself an Englishman? Michael Vaughn in his autobiography:

"It was a sad day for English cricket that on my last day against South Africa I saw Jonathan Trott celebrating with South Africa, when the week before he had been our 12th man at Headingley. "I was going into the press conference and I saw him patting them on the back. It hit home what English cricket has become like."

"I suppose you might wish Trott was a bit more English, but after such a brilliant debut it appeared we had found another high-quality batsman."

The same Vaughn who's been so outspoken in his support on this team's ascendency to the top. Again, winning tends to gloss over these issues. I'm not the one changing my opinion as I've held it for quite some time. Guys like Vaughn/Atherton etc clearly have.

[wobblydoggy]

That's an incorrect analogy. If you want to go down that route then you might as well argue about the weather conditions that allow cricket in Australia to be played almost throughout the year vs countries like England/Ireland where it's really only possible in spring/summer. Again, WHO is talking about the rules/loopholes? That's not in dispute. The only statement I made was that it's not a English side and I've seen nothing so far to refute that. Especially considering guys like Morgan/KP don't consider/call themselves Englishmen. I though Atherton's column made that pretty clear.

So answer me this please. What will you think when say a player like Bopara decides if good enough(I dont think he is) that he wants to play for the side of his lineage rather than his birth place?

[Guest Gunner]

So answer me this please. What will you think when say a player like Bopara decides if good enough(I dont think he is) that he wants to play for the side of his lineage rather than his birth place?

I was thinking more along the lines of Steven Finn. I am confident of convincing him that he is from the Punjab!

[wobblydoggy]

I was thinking more along the lines of Steven Finn. I am confident of convincing him that he is from the Punjab!

You can have him, can you convince Dravid that he was born in Watford:winky:

[Fontaine]

So answer me this please. What will you think when say a player like Bopara decides if good enough(I dont think he is) that he wants to play for the side of his lineage rather than his birth place?

It's pretty simple with Bopara because he was born in England, grew up playing cricket in England, went through the English system, played for the under 19 England team. Same as Ian Bell and Cook. These are the only three that actually grew up and learned their cricket in England and played for the under 19 side as far as I know. More importantly Bopara considers himself an English person for many reasons including the previous reasons. That's in complete contrast with guys like Trott/Morgan/KP etc who weren't born/grew up/learned their cricket in England. Again, here's Michael Vaughn:

I do have a problem when the likes of Jonathan Trott (play for England), and (Craig) Kieswetter, who's played for the South African Under-19s. I think in Trott's case he even played for the South Africa A team. "Now that is where I have a problem, that we have almost got a 'ship-in' system of looking at talent, and a lot of them come over for the money. "It's very, very difficult to stop them. I would like to see, in an ideal world, 11 complete Englishmen in the team but I don't think that's ever going to be the case."

And exactly who are you arguing with here? Me or Michael Vaughn/Atherton? That's TWO former England captains who have played for England and have a first hand knowledgeble perspective on this "English" team.

[Sachinism]

But controversial star Kevin Pietersen has inadvertently rekindled the debate over the prevalence of South African-born cricketers in the England set-up by announcing in a throwaway line: ‘I’m not English, I just work here.’

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-2015512/Kevin-Pietersen-claims-adds-concerns-Englands-South-Africans.html You decide whether that's right or wrong

[Fontaine]

I mean to me it's pretty straightforward. KP/Trott/Morgan etc don't call themselves English, didn't grow up in England, didn't learn their cricket in England so how in the world are they English Players? It's like saying Danish Kaneria is from Essex simply because he played there for a few seasons.

[wobblydoggy]

It's pretty simple with Bopara because he was born in England, grew up playing cricket in England, went through the English system, played for the under 19 England team. Same as Ian Bell and Cook. These are the only three that actually grew up and learned their cricket in England and played for the under 19 side as far as I know. More importantly Bopara considers himself an English person for many reasons including the previous reasons. That's in complete contrast with guys like Trott/Morgan/KP etc who weren't born/grew up/learned their cricket in England. Again, here's Michael Vaughn: And exactly who are you arguing with here? Me or Michael Vaughn/Atherton? That's TWO former England captains who have played for England and have a first hand knowledgeble perspective on this "English" team.

You are missing my point. I was saying what if Bopara had not wanted to play for England and wanted to play for India and was good enough?

[wobblydoggy]

I mean to me it's pretty straightforward. KP/Trott/Morgan etc don't call themselves English, didn't grow up in England, didn't learn their cricket in England so how in the world are they English Players? It's like saying Danish Kaneria is from Essex simply because he played there for a few seasons.

But what about an Indian lad who was born here but mum and dad were born in India?

[Fontaine]

You are missing my point. I was saying what if Bopara had not wanted to play for England and wanted to play for India and was good enough?

Why should I address your hypothetical question when you've failed to address any of my points regarding KP/Trott/Morgan and the reality of the situation?

[wobblydoggy]

Why should I address your hypothetical question when you've failed to address any of my points regarding KP/Trott/Morgan and the reality of the situation?

By asking you that question I am addressing your points. I am pointing out that the player himself has a say in where he wishes to play in the modern game and what you or I think of that matters little unless rules are changed

[Fontaine]

By asking you that question I am addressing your points. I am pointing out that the player himself has a say in where he wishes to play in the modern game and what you or I think of that matters little unless rules are changed

You've addressed nothing here. I've already stated that the rules/regulations aren't in question. I'll completely state that a player passes the criteria for selection has that choice. Furthermore, I've also congratulated this team on it's sucess and have said they are the best team in the world, however, they are not an English side and again I've seen nothing so far to refute that. No one in their right mind can say guys like KP/Trott/Morgan are English or a product of growing up in the English system. They simply chose to play in England for $$$$ reasons or to play test cricket when they didn't have that opportunity in Ireland. Pretty simple stuff really and I'm not alone in saying that when guys like Atherton/Vaughn have directly questioned that and even a selector like Ashley Giles has voiced it in the same manner that the kolpak players aren't a product of the English system but foreign players.

[Fontaine]

And really I can see why the ECB doesn't do anything about closing the loophole and promoting more English talent. It's no secret that when it comes to batting England's system is outdated and old when compared to the new methods batsmen prefer using now with high backlifts and all the focus on quicker batspeed/bottom hand etc. Young English players are taught to play in a much different orthodox manner. Or do you think the likes of Morgan learned his batting in England? Or KP learned to be so unorthodox, batting outside his crease etc in England? :hysterical:

[wobblydoggy]

You've addressed nothing here. I've already stated that the rules/regulations aren't in question. I'll completely state that a player passes the criteria for selection has that choice. Furthermore, I've also congratulated this team on it's sucess and have said they are the best team in the world, however, they are not an English side and again I've seen nothing so far to refute that. No one in their right mind can say guys like KP/Trott/Morgan are English or a product of growing up in the English system. They simply chose to play in England for $$$$ reasons or to play test cricket when they didn't have that opportunity in Ireland. Pretty simple stuff really and I'm not alone in saying that when guys like Atherton/Vaughn have directly questioned that and even a selector like Ashley Giles has voiced it in the same manner that the kolpak players aren't a product of the English system but foreign players.

I disagree

[daryl1985]

You are missing my point. I was saying what if Bopara had not wanted to play for England and wanted to play for India and was good enough?

Bopara is 100% ethnically Indian as a far as i know so i would not have a problem. However, Joanthan Trott apparently has an Irish Grandmother and is blatantly a Saffer at heart. Eoin Morgan is 100% Irish and i know who he will be supporting when England play Ireland in the Six Nations early next year. I was born in England and used to support both England and India (having a slight preference for India) but their selection policy has turned me off them and nowadays i support India 100% when the teams play each other. When England play other teams i still want them to win but am not that fussed if they lose.

[Sachinism]

Didn't Swann last year say British Asians should be supporting England? And the part he didn't say 'South African teens should continue to support England'

[Fontaine]

I was born in England and used to support both England and India (having a slight preference for India) but their selection policy has turned me off them and nowadays i support India 100% when the teams play each other. When England play other teams i still want them to win but am not that fussed if they lose.

You're not alone, Atherton/Vaughn/Giles among many others have voiced similar concerns in public, on the record in the media when England were struggling 2/3 years ago. Until now when this side is atop the rankings (and deservedly so), all those cracks are forgotten about. Well at least this way Ireland/SA have something to celebrate about too! :--D And that's pretty much my point. England fans think "their" team has reached the top of the test rankings. You don't think Morgan's Irish family/friends in Ireland and KP/Trott's family/friends/former coaches will be celebrating too in SA?? :hysterical:

[wobblydoggy]

Didn't Swann last year say British Asians should be supporting England? And the part he didn't say 'South African teens should continue to support England'

There is something over here called the 'Tebbit Test' He was a fairly rightwing conservative who said the allegiance to our nation by immigrants could be fairly accurately measured by sitting in a crowd at a test match against India or pakistan. Personally having sat in many, I agree with him, very few immigrants or the children of immigrants from those two countries support Englan, the country thatr has given them a chance to thrive. It is very sad IMHO, but it is the way it is, so I agree with Swann

[Sarkar]

There is something over here called the 'Tebbit Test' He was a fairly rightwing conservative who said the allegiance to our nation by immigrants could be fairly accurately measured by sitting in a crowd at a test match against India or pakistan. Personally having sat in many, I agree with him, very few immigrants or the children of immigrants from those two countries support Englan, the country thatr has given them a chance to thrive. It is very sad IMHO, but it is the way it is, so I agree with Swann

the tit bit test