Lurker Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 Quality of IITians in going down somehow. Primarily it is because of ever increasing number of seats in IIT's and it is set to go down even further with new set of IIT's coming up. Few years back, a seat in IIT's were not guaranteed if you got a JEE rank beyond 1500 and nowadays I hear people talking about JEE rank in 10's of thousands. Second important reason is decreasing quality of JEE question papers. Anybody who has seen Physics question paper of JEE-95 and physics question paper from any of the recent JEE's would understand the difference clearly. Why is this an issue? In a country of a billion population why should there only be 2000 students selected? 2000 number was good for the time IIT were conceived. Today the population is 3-4 times that. Only natural to have more seats now.
Lurker Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 I work for one of these companies & trust me we have had lot of recruits from IITs in the past few years ..one kid i met was on SAP support team ' date=' you have to agree its dissapointing.[/quote'] The quality all around is disappointing. It has little to do with IITs per se me thinks. It has a LOT to do with how the Indian IT giants have operated. Indian IT companies have diluted the quality overall, in terms of intellect as well as role. Every 2nd person is a Manager, every 3rd guy/gal is a so and so Architect. If I had a dollar every time Infy and other giants have sent somebody as an Informatica Architect, or BO architect and then figured out the chap was nothing more than simple developer, I would be a millionaire by now. xxx
The Outsider Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 Quality of IITians in going down somehow. Primarily it is because of ever increasing number of seats in IIT's and it is set to go down even further with new set of IIT's coming up. Few years back, a seat in IIT's were not guaranteed if you got a JEE rank beyond 1500 and nowadays I hear people talking about JEE rank in 10's of thousands. Not at all. The basic aptitude and intelligence level of someone with a JEE rank of 10000 and 100 is roughly the same. Growth in number of IITs can be attributed as a reason, but the underlying factor is not the worse quality of students but the inferior, inexperienced faculty, the lack of an established infrastructure etc. etc. in the newer IITs. If it was a student volume issue, then in top US universities an entering class of 2000 or so is quite common and places like MIT and Harvard would have been admitting inferior students.
Lurker Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 Not at all. The basic aptitude and intelligence level of someone with a JEE rank of 10000 and 100 is roughly the same. Growth in number of IITs can be attributed as a reason' date= but the underlying factor is not the worse quality of students but the inferior, inexperienced faculty, the lack of an established infrastructure etc. etc. in the newer IITs. If it was a student volume issue, then in top US universities an entering class of 2000 or so is quite common and places like MIT and Harvard would have been admitting inferior students. Right on. If anything, I would argue students who come out of RECs are lot more well rounded individual than IITans. For the sake of full disclosure I would admit I am from REC. However I must say that RECs, and 2nd tier college folks like BITS etc are typically folks who are smart without being a nerd, know long off from long leg, have heard of Bon Jovi before coming to US etc. Dont come after me if you are an IITian and you are well rounded. Full marks to you but typical IITian, in my experience, is often a smart and yet disappointing fella. Hard to put in words I suppose. xxx
ganeshran Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 The quality all around is disappointing. It has little to do with IITs per se me thinks. It has a LOT to do with how the Indian IT giants have operated. Indian IT companies have diluted the quality overall, in terms of intellect as well as role. Every 2nd person is a Manager, every 3rd guy/gal is a so and so Architect. If I had a dollar every time Infy and other giants have sent somebody as an Informatica Architect, or BO architect and then figured out the chap was nothing more than simple developer, I would be a millionaire by now. xxx I dont think IT giants have anything to do with the production of semi employable engineers by our system. They are merely making use of the available resource pool in a way as to maximize their profit. In short, what you are describing here is the effect, not the cause. The cause is the education system in the country which lays huge emphasis on rote and marks rather than original research. How many engineering projects actually are based on innovative ideas? Most of them (including mine) was simply a rehash of something which was actually done many times before with slight modifications to produce something which is predictable but of zero intellectual value. The culture of placing over emphasis on marks is what is causing the quality to go down.
Brainfade Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 Right on. If anything, I would argue students who come out of RECs are lot more well rounded individual than IITans. For the sake of full disclosure I would admit I am from REC. However I must say that RECs, and 2nd tier college folks like BITS etc are typically folks who are smart without being a nerd, know long off from long leg, have heard of Bon Jovi before coming to US etc. Dont come after me if you are an IITian and you are well rounded. Full marks to you but typical IITian, in my experience, is often a smart and yet disappointing fella. Hard to put in words I suppose. xxx Most folks here are painting with broad brushes. Lurker, I am not sure that first sentence works. I have no dog in this fight (am neither an IITian nor a BITS/REC..ian ... heck, I am not even an engineer). But, I have a collection of friends, cousins, colleagues and former roommates who are one of the ...ians. Some of them are RECians and are unadulterated, annoying nerds; some are IITians and are the most well-rounded folks I've seen ....... you see the point. Gross generalizations like this just don't work. Back to the OP, does anyone know what Narayana Murthy meant when he said "inferior?" What were his criteria? Analytical abilities? General IQ? As always, the devil is in the details.
Lurker Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 I dont think IT giants have anything to do with the production of semi employable engineers by our system. They are merely making use of the available resource pool in a way as to maximize their profit. In short' date= what you are describing here is the effect, not the cause. The cause is the education system in the country which lays huge emphasis on rote and marks rather than original research. How many engineering projects actually are based on innovative ideas? Most of them (including mine) was simply a rehash of something which was actually done many times before with slight modifications to produce something which is predictable but of zero intellectual value. The culture of placing over emphasis on marks is what is causing the quality to go down. In case of IT I would argue the responsibility has a lot to do with the IT giants of India. When you allege that they are merely making use of available talent to maximize the profit the question is how are they making use of it? Would you go to a Doctor, for example, when he is an intern? Or go to a lawyer who turns out to be a Paralegal? So how come a Junior Software Developer gets cloaked as Software Architect and then shipped?? The answer is easy, Infosys can pose a 4-6 years experience guy as Architect, bump up his hourly rate from 50$ to 75$ an hour, "maximize" the profit, and dilute the quality of project as also make sure in many cases such projects fail. Frankly, is this even a secret? Folks who work in IT know exactly what I am talking about. The good guys, in Infosys or otherwise, would perhaps agree with me even more because it is ultimately they who are screwed from both sides and have to burn midnight oil to salvage projects in many cases. xxx
ganeshran Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 Not quite' date=' his criticism is strictly against Narayan Murthy. Exact words being - It [i']is ironic when someone who runs a body shopping company and calls it hi-tech, makes sweeping comments on the quality of IIT students. Where is he questioning the employees here? IMO when he calls the company a body shop, it actually is a criticism on the quality of all the employees being fit for cheap outsourcing projects which is not the case. Though there are many such projects, Infy still has a lot of brilliant minds working for it and has research projects as well, just that they get lost in the huge pool of mediocrity which ironically is the revenue earner for the company. But that is just my interpretation of the tweet and someone else could interpret it differently. My point is that Bhagat is shooting the messenger here. NRN made the comments in his personal capacity - not as someone who is even in charge of Infy now. Instead of saying whether he agrees/disagrees with the comment on the IIT standards going down, he gets defensive and criticizes infy to get even.
Lurker Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 Most folks here are painting with broad brushes. Lurker, I am not sure that first sentence works. I have no dog in this fight (am neither an IITian nor a BITS/REC..ian ... heck, I am not even an engineer). But, I have a collection of friends, cousins, colleagues and former roommates who are one of the ...ians. And some of them are RECians and are unadulterated, annoying nerds; some are IITians and are the most well-rounded folks I've seen ....... you see the point. Gross generalizations like this just don't work. Back to the OP, does anyone know what Narayana Murthy meant when he said "inferior?" What were his criteria? Analytical abilities? General IQ? As always, the devil is in the details. Point taken CA. I have no gripes against IITians, heck I am supporting them here and castigating Murthy and Infosys. But to the larger question of quality of education and the students we churn out as a nation the question remains that we end up looking at folks who tend to be one dimensional and push them through royal grail to be another brick in the wall.
Lurker Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 IMO when he calls the company a body shop' date= it actually is a criticism on the quality of all the employees being fit for cheap outsourcing projects which is not the case. Though there are many such projects, Infy still has a lot of brilliant minds working for it and has research projects as well, just that they get lost in the huge pool of mediocrity which ironically is the revenue earner for the company. But that is just my interpretation of the tweet and someone else could interpret it differently. My point is that Bhagat is shooting the messenger here. NRN made the comments in his personal capacity - not as someone who is even in charge of Infy now. Instead of saying whether he agrees/disagrees with the comment on the IIT standards going down, he gets defensive and criticizes infy to get even. Bodyshoppers are typically folks who provide headcounts. Someone who can put foots on the ground without adding much overall value. Outsourcing is only one aspect of it Ganesh.
Brainfade Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 IMO when he calls the company a body shop, it actually is a criticism on the quality of all the employees being fit for cheap outsourcing projects which is not the case. Though there are many such projects, Infy still has a lot of brilliant minds working for it and has research projects as well, just that they get lost in the huge pool of mediocrity which ironically is the revenue earner for the company. But that is just my interpretation of the tweet and someone else could interpret it differently. My point is that Bhagat is shooting the messenger here. NRN made the comments in his personal capacity - not as someone who is even in charge of Infy now. Instead of saying whether he agrees/disagrees with the comment on the IIT standards going down, he gets defensive and criticizes infy to get even. Maybe an objective question to ask Narayan Murthy would have been "Do you also think that current Infy-ians are inferior to the ones from a decade ago?"
seedhi Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 As a nation' date=' India has to tackle problems at all levels. We can not go like - lets solve the healthcare/primary education before anything, until then we won't bother about improving quality of higher education.[/quote']All I am saying is that disproportionate attention is given to IITs/IIMs. Their contribution to higher education in India is negligible (in terms of student intake). I am not saying they should not exist, there is place for them, but the tendency of HRD ministers to spend a lot of time micro-managing these elite institutions is wrong. The real problems of education are in the villages, small towns and among the poor in India. Even in higher education, effort needs to be made to improve the state of local colleges/institutes and under funded/staffed universities. Instead of tinkering with JEE/CAT, cut offs etc the actual challenges need to tackled.
Yoda-esque Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 IMO when he calls the company a body shop' date= it actually is a criticism on the quality of all the employees being fit for cheap outsourcing projects which is not the case. Though there are many such projects, Infy still has a lot of brilliant minds working for it and has research projects as well, just that they get lost in the huge pool of mediocrity which ironically is the revenue earner for the company. But that is just my interpretation of the tweet and someone else could interpret it differently. My point is that Bhagat is shooting the messenger here. NRN made the comments in his personal capacity - not as someone who is even in charge of Infy now. Instead of saying whether he agrees/disagrees with the comment on the IIT standards going down, he gets defensive and criticizes infy to get even. In the same vein as Murthy when he criticizes the student's ability by saying that IITs are diluted. Maybe an objective question to ask Narayan Murthy would have been "Do you also think that current Infy-ians are inferior to the ones from a decade ago?" Of course,they are:winky:
ganeshran Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 In case of IT I would argue the responsibility has a lot to do with the IT giants of India. When you allege that they are merely making use of available talent to maximize the profit the question is how are they making use of it? Would you go to a Doctor, for example, when he is an intern? Or go to a lawyer who turns out to be a Paralegal? So how come a Junior Software Developer gets cloaked as Software Architect and then shipped?? The answer is easy, Infosys can pose a 4-6 years experience guy as Architect, bump up his hourly rate from 50$ to 75$ an hour, "maximize" the profit, and dilute the quality of project as also make sure in many cases such projects fail. Frankly, is this even a secret? Folks who work in IT know exactly what I am talking about. The good guys, in Infosys or otherwise, would perhaps agree with me even more because it is ultimately they who are screwed from both sides and have to burn midnight oil to salvage projects in many cases. xxx This is completely true, and that is hugely responsible for the sub optimal quality of many projects being undertaken in Indian software companies. However the junior software engineer's (many, not all) tryst with mediocrity begins in college, not in the IT company. Till we reform our education system to churn out people who are interested to learn, this is always going to be the case. People are happy to take up roles of Architect and Manager within a few years of joining the company - because coding is not something which they are fully proficient in and neither are they comfortable doing it. This lack of interest is something which is cultivated in the college, it is merely expressed in the IT company.
ganeshran Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 Maybe an objective question to ask Narayan Murthy would have been "Do you also think that current Infy-ians are inferior to the ones from a decade ago?" Yes (as a percentage) of course they are. I am pretty sure NRN would agree with you there as well. In the same vein as Murthy when he criticizes the student's ability by saying that IITs are diluted. My objection with Bhagat statement is that his reaction came off looking as defensive rather than a constructive argument. Infy's dropping standards have nothing to do with IIT standards - Infy is certainly not a destination for most IIT graduates. NRN's concern was with the quality going down in the premier educational institution of the country which is supposed to provide our best technical talent pool.
Alchemist Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 This is completely true, and that is hugely responsible for the sub optimal quality of many projects being undertaken in Indian software companies. However the junior software engineer's (many, not all) tryst with mediocrity begins in college, not in the IT company. Till we reform our education system to churn out people who are interested to learn, this is always going to be the case. People are happy to take up roles of Architect and Manager within a few years of joining the company - because coding is not something which they are fully proficient in and neither are they comfortable doing it. This lack of interest is something which is cultivated in the college, it is merely expressed in the IT company. No where in your argument do you point blame towards the individual themselves. What about the engineers themselves ? Why don't they decide to be better ? Or having more money , no matter how, means being better ? IMO, students don't lose interest because of the education system, but because of the fact that a company like infosys or any other is going to hire them even if they are mediocre. In my college, Infosys used to come in on placement day and hire by lot. Most of the hired people would be bench warmers. And they were happy with that. I think, some blame does fall upon students as individuals and what choices they decide to make.
Lurker Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 What about the engineers themselves ? Why don't they decide to be better ? Or having more money , no matter how, means being better ? IMO, students don't lose interest because of the education system, but because of the fact that a company like infosys or any other is going to hire them even if they are mediocre. In my college, Infosys used to come in on placement day and hire by lot. Most of the hired people would be bench warmers. And they were happy with that. I think, some blame does fall upon students as individuals and what choices they decide to make. This is actually a very good point. As a whole, I feel the quality of folks, in IT, has dwindled. Now it is down to a lot of reasons of course. One of the key being the whole google-generation where people get answers online in matter of minutes instead of struggling for days and hours and challenging themselves. Then there is a case to be made of shorter attention span at work, thanks to facebook, twitter, internet where people simply dont pay as much attention. You also have softwares maturing so instead of a database guy spending 10 years to be a DBA you now have fresh off the college guys using the GUI. There is equally a case to be made that life simply has become easier for the newer generation. In 2000, or thereabouts, if TCS sent you to US they paid you $1850. Infosys and Wipro were little better. Today the salary would be twice that. So maybe easier access to money has also affected the drive to excel? Dont know but your point about individuals also need to be accountable is very pertinent. xx
Raghav_12 Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 Not at all. The basic aptitude and intelligence level of someone with a JEE rank of 10000 and 100 is roughly the same. Growth in number of IITs can be attributed as a reason' date= but the underlying factor is not the worse quality of students but the inferior, inexperienced faculty, the lack of an established infrastructure etc. etc. in the newer IITs. If it was a student volume issue, then in top US universities an entering class of 2000 or so is quite common and places like MIT and Harvard would have been admitting inferior students. You can't be serious about this. JEE rank 100 is equivalent to 10000? You better ask any IITian who would have spent 4 years in that set-up, you would know the real situation.
Raghav_12 Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 Right on. If anything, I would argue students who come out of RECs are lot more well rounded individual than IITans. For the sake of full disclosure I would admit I am from REC. However I must say that RECs, and 2nd tier college folks like BITS etc are typically folks who are smart without being a nerd, know long off from long leg, have heard of Bon Jovi before coming to US etc. Dont come after me if you are an IITian and you are well rounded. Full marks to you but typical IITian, in my experience, is often a smart and yet disappointing fella. Hard to put in words I suppose. xxx Haha.. What a gross generalization. One notion which I developed from my interactions that I had with REC guys- which I had plenty- that they have this life long bitterness about not being able to make it to IIT and they keep on taking swipe at IIT's and IITians, just to feel good about themselves that they didn't miss anything in life. You once again confirmed that notion. Now, if you truly believe in what you wrote here, I hope you advice everybody to chose REC's over IIT.
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