Ram Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 I have seen with my own eyes colleagues of mine who quit their jobs (they didn’t get laid off, they voluntarily quit) towards the end of 2008 and live on unemployment benefits for more than a year. This whole logic of ‘Well, whenever there’s a system, there’s bound to be abuse and fraud’ does not hold water in my opinion. There’s absolutely no excuse to give young, able bodied men and women monthly checks to look out for themselves. However, the story's different for the elderly and destitute, which is why i am a big supporter of medicare, medicaid, foodstamps and other programs of similar nature.
EnterTheVoid Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 Do you get the cases of single mothers with 10 kids using the "baby bonus" payments to buy Plasma TV's? If not that, bloody dole bludgers using my tax dollars to go on holidays that even I can't afford :wall:
G_B_ Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 Or just wiki it. It's not about the extent of the welfare state. It is about abuse and fraud. It happens with individual welfare recipients as well as with corporate welfare recipients. and you think that does not happen in other developed countries? Come to the uk my friend, I will show you somali asylum seekers have 7 children and living well without working. I have been to France and the Nordic countries and they have people living like kings, forget iphones. Trust me, the USA is nowhere near the welfare of western europe or even countries like your neighbour to the north canada. Be happy with that. Once you become a developed state there are certain responsibilities. They are not perfect i agree. But they are the hallmark of a civilised society even if they dont seem fair. Look at one of my neighbours in the uk, he is a fat mothertrucker. Clearly I have to pay for his medical expenses through my taxes. Despite his weight issues the parade blimp, keeps eating McDonalds and probably will need weight reduction operation at taxpayer expense. Thats just the way it is.
cricket_usa Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 there will always be people who slip through the cracks and exploit the system. Ie you cant design a system which is 100% perfect. Even i would like a society where everybody chipped in. But thats not possible. You talk about welfare but what about the richest who have off shore accounts and dont pay taxes. They use the same roads and other services middle class americans use right? The point being the richest and the poorest always find ways to work the system. Its always the middle who cant wriggle out. I agree with you 100%. I think GE paid 0 income tax in the US. Their lawyers showed they made a loss in the US but they made profit world wide.
G_B_ Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 Why are you always resorting to comparisons? If someone says the US is like this, your default, knee-jerk reaction is Oh Europe is like that. Let me tell you I dont care what goes on in Europe, I dont live there. However, I do live in the US and pay my taxes and it is but natural to think that the money I am giving into the system is being wasted on frivolous expenditure and bloated entitlement programs that foster a culture of laziness and lack of accountability. I am not against contributing to the system By all means increase my taxes if you want. My lifestyle wont be impacted much if 5, even 10% more taxes. However, you must guarantee that the money is going to be used for substantive purposes. its not just europe my friend,even your neighbour to the north has a bigger welfare state. Japan Hong Kong etc Australia new zealand I would classify over the top defence expenditure as the biggest bloated expense. I mean the F22 program cost more than any welfare king or queen. and its not a knee jerk reaction. You can google the amount of money the usa spends on welfare as a % of the total budget. Its honestly not much. Thats hardcore stats.
Brainfade Posted December 19, 2011 Author Posted December 19, 2011 and you think that does not happen in other developed countries? Am sure it does. My sister lives in the UK and I get anecdotes from her when I visit. I have seen the free public housing etc., and know exactly what you are talking about. That does not make it right or acceptable. And it does not take away my right to whine about it on a message board when I am on break :-)!
G_B_ Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 I agree with you 100%. I think GE paid 0 income tax in the US. Their lawyers showed they made a loss in the US but they made profit world wide. and there ya go. GE takes advantage of American infra paid for by American tax payers. Yet contributes nothing. The only winners are its stakeholders in this case being the shareholders via dividends or stock price. So they are corporate welfare companies and their shareholders are on welfare indirectly. No matter how much you ***** about it. The top 10% and bottom 10% in any civilized developed soceity will take advantage. The middle will always pay. You can vote republican or the "God save the f-ucking queen" party and it will still be the same.
Ram Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 its not just europe my friend,even your neighbour to the north has a bigger welfare state. Japan Hong Kong etc Australia new zealand I would classify over the top defence expenditure as the biggest bloated expense. I mean the F22 program cost more than any welfare king or queen. and its not a knee jerk reaction. You can google the amount of money the usa spends on welfare as a % of the total budget. Its honestly not much. Thats hardcore stats. And I do not support the raptor program either, nor the preposterously illegal and immoral iraq war or any of the other DoD's misadventures.
G_B_ Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 Am sure it does. My sister lives in the UK and I get anecdotes from her when I visit. I have seen the free public housing etc.' date=' and know exactly what you are talking about. That does not make it right or acceptable. And it does not take away my right to whine about it on a message board when I am on break :-)![/quote'] the plus side of that if we dont have the levels of crime in the uk as the usa. In the nordic countries crime rates are even lower. The downside is that I have to pay more taxes. But i have a safety net over my head god forbid something goes wrong.
cricket_usa Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 I think health care is a basic need that need to be met in a developed country. Even in a country like India people have options, they can either go to govt hospitals and get free treatment or go to private hospitals if they have money. I am not saying they both are in the same level, but atleast people have options. What options do people in US have? You are Sh*t out of luck if you don't have insurance. They need to have a single payer options where the govt pays for the health care for people and if you a rich republican you can buy your own insurance.
cricket_usa Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 I say more regulation, lower defence spending, increase local spending on health care and cut foreign aids. Hope Obama would move more to the left in the second term. Increase my taxes and give me a better safety net.
G_B_ Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 And I do not support the raptor program either' date=' nor the preposterously illegal and immoral iraq war or any of the other DoD's misadventures.[/quote'] and yet they happen on a regular basis. People talk my friend about Iraq being expensive, but Vietnam was way way more bloody and expensive a war as was Korea. Justified maybe, but expensive. All i am saying is that the USA has a better system than most other developed countries when it comes to welfare. Dont moan about the few who take advantage. There will never be a perfect system. What europe and canada spend on social programs, your right makes the populace lazy. Kids in the uk are much less driven than their american counterparts. What America spends on wars costs a lot of money. We all have our positive and negative points.
Brainfade Posted December 19, 2011 Author Posted December 19, 2011 and there ya go. GE takes advantage of American infra paid for by American tax payers. Yet contributes nothing. GE = Government Electric. Their personal and corporate links to big government are incredible. Moreover they virtually own NBC and MSNBC. This is what happens when the federal government tries to drive everything from healthcare to housing.
cricket_usa Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 Iraq war cost 1 trillion and health care reform cost 954 billion in 10 years.
G_B_ Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 GE = Government Electric. Their personal and corporate links to big government are incredible. Moreover they virtually own NBC and MSNBC. This is what happens when the federal government tries to drive everything from healthcare to housing. There is also Government Sachs. :cantstop: dont tell me they are pro big government. Yet seem to benefit from the government. Fannie and Freddie were plain greedy. and for all you had the republican administration of GW Bush. Thats not even mentioning the oil companies and wars. even regan for that matter. Did not really care about fiscal deficits. Raised taxes too.
Brainfade Posted December 19, 2011 Author Posted December 19, 2011 Iraq war cost 1 trillion and health care reform cost 954 billion in 10 years. And I have spoken up against both.
cricket_usa Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 GE = Government Electric. Their personal and corporate links to big government are incredible. Moreover they virtually own NBC and MSNBC. This is what happens when the federal government tries to drive everything from healthcare to housing. So what about haliburton? They made lot of money on Iraq war and moved to Dubai so they don't have to pay US tax.
cricket_usa Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 And I have spoken up against both. Health care saves life, war kills.
Lurker Posted December 19, 2011 Posted December 19, 2011 http://thecollegeconservative.com/2011/12/13/my-time-at-walmart-why-we-need-serious-welfare-reform/ The key question/trend CA is not the (mis)use of Government help(or dole). The bigger question to me is whether people are turning against each other?? Of late looks like US is looking at beginning of its end, similar to Europe. No its not pessmist in me but the us versus them discussions that I have seen aplenty growing up in India. Perhaps related, or maybe not, what is your take on the huge gap in salary/wages between say that of Cop/Firemen/Teacher..heck even College Professor these days with say even an IT guy these days (forget Bankers, Financial geeks etc). Whats your opinion on somebody maintaining law and order or saving lives making a fraction of what folks like me do an daily basis? :om::om:
Brainfade Posted December 19, 2011 Author Posted December 19, 2011 Health care saves life' date=' war kills.[/quote'] Healthcare in the hands of the government is not the solution. Big HMOs? Government idea. Fail. Tax subsidies on Employer-based health coverage? Government idea. Fail. The big behemoth just got bigger with PPACA - we just created a monster HMO - the federal government. Any law that excluded defensive-medicine reform (tort reform) and cost reductions at the front-end of medical care is not worth the paper it was written on. Am I saying that the pre-PPACA system worked? No. But PPACA is not the answer. The excrement will hit the blades in 2014. http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2011/08/10/obamacare-bombshell-did-the-government-underestimate-the-costs-of-ppacas-exchanges-by-hundreds-of-billions/
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