Mariyam Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Vijay you are confusing between two very distinct issues here. 1) Should suicide be a crime? 2) Is it acceptable that a person take his own life? On the first point, In my previous posts in this thread, I've given you reasons why the law equated suicide to a crime. My personal view, is that I agree with the law. Not strongly agree, but agree nevertheless. According to the Indian constitution, the right to life ( a subset of the right to freedom) does not include the right to die. Mariyam, your argument is coming across as someone who wants to judge people for their act. Per you it is cowardly, per you it is against God's will, per you the individual has an obligation towards others and that obligation is more important than the individual's happiness. Maybe when you look at it from the perspective of the individual itself you may realize why life is more harmful than death. There are no absolutes in this experiential universe, Mariyam. Even suicide is a prisoner to those four variables - t,s,p,c. Where is all this coming from? I have never invoked God in any of my points here. Neither have I called a suicide-er a coward. Nor am I judging anyone. I am giving you a viewpoint, that is from the perspective of a society/samaj/state and not the 'erring' individual. And this viewpoint has nothing whatsoever to do with my religious beliefs. :omg: So Mariyam, who has the right to your life? Allah? Jesus? Krishna? If a kid suicides it is because he has been brought up by his parents to believe that if he flunks 10th then he is worthless. In such a case, taking your angle about suicide affecting loved ones, I think it is fair punishment for the "loved ones" to have brought their kid up in such a way. ps: I personally find Krishna, and Jesus as cool dudes. Sid per me was a cool psycho rocker and Mo was very troubled Like I said before, freedom of choice doesn't mean you can kill yourself. People close to you also have a right to your life. This simply isn't a Abrhamaic vs non Abrahamic vs Mayan philosophy discussion at all. An(yet another) analogy: You stay on the 2nd floor of a 20 floor residential tower and have a peculiar habit of collecting and burning garbage in your home. On the day the housing society meets ( if not before), the secretary is going to ask you: Vijay Saab, yeh kya ho raha hai? Aap apne ghar kachra ikhatta karte ho, aur yehan hamare bacche bimar pad rahe hein. Dusve maley tak badbu aati hai. Hum apne gharon mein bhi saans nahi le sakte. Do you think, you can repeat this "my life, my house, my kachra" ghisipiti line to them and get away with it? You can't break the walls and support pillars of your home, it would endanger the entire edifice? Its similar in case of a suicide, except that the damage may not be do evidently tangible. What about the mother who dies heart broken when she hears that her son has committed suicide because his girlfriend ditched him? And so on....
Vijay.Sharma Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Vijay you are confusing between two very distinct issues here. 1) Should suicide be a crime? 2) Is it acceptable that a person take his own life? On the first point, In my previous posts in this thread, I've given you reasons why the law equated suicide to a crime. My personal view, is that I agree with the law. Not strongly agree, but agree nevertheless. According to the Indian constitution, the right to life ( a subset of the right to freedom) does not include the right to die.The problem, Mariyam, is that both those points are very interwoven to be addressed separately. A crime necessarily is an unacceptable thingy in society by large (the corollary is not true always though). Yes, it is acceptable if a person take his own life. And therefore, it is must not be a crime. Where is all this coming from? I have never invoked God in any of my points here. Neither have I called a suicide-er a coward. Nor am I judging anyone. I am giving you a viewpoint' date=' that is from the perspective of a society/samaj/state and not the 'erring' individual. And this viewpoint has [i']nothing whatsoever to do with my religious beliefs.You have not stated it explicitly but it is what I have inferred from whatever you have expressed. Your insistence that an individual, immaterial of the pain he or she is in, has done a crime to his/her loved ones by taking his/her life has judgment written all over it. If you aren't judging the individual for the act then what are you doing? Like I said before' date=' freedom of choice doesn't mean you can kill yourself. People close to you also have a right to your life.[/quote']Sez who? Maybe your personal viewpoint's evolution has nothing to do with Abrahamic faiths. However, the viewpoint in itself is very consistent with Abrahamic faiths and that is what I meant. Sorry Mariyam, it is again an irrelevant analogy.
f.b.m Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 For the first time since the creation of the universe, I genuinely appreciate what you have posted.. Edit - Mariyam, in fact consider this case. A year or two ago I read about a horrific case in Germany(?). A guy had imprisoned his daughter for donkeys years in the basement of his house and raped her and begot children thru her. She did not see sunlight for like 15-20 years. She was chained all the while in her basement. Let's suppose she had access to a sharp enough knife. And before she got pregnant the first time, let's say she got the guts to kill herself. And she ended her life because she could not bare the daily rape by her father and being imprisoned in a hell hole. Did she commit a crime? Which "loved one" did she betray / disappoint? Her rapist father? (her mother was long dead) I await your answers to the above scenario and then you can tell me if "suicide is a crime" can be an absolute law It was in Austria and his name is Joseph Fritzl.
India-KXIP fan Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 You could send them to a metal institution and keep them until they are ready to go back no matter how long it takes. But sometimes a person may be kept too long or unfairly so a 1 year jail sounds better. Keep it the way it is. Euthanasia on the other hand is pathetic.
Lurker Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 I choose the perspective of the individual. If the individual feels he has no business living this life then he should have the freedom to die. Really? Isn't that extremely apathetic of you(and us)? Look, a lot of such discussions are very much academic. We say things that we perhaps wouldnt in real life. Very few times we have a situation where we have some actual experience about this. This particular thread has one such person. DC has been brutally honest in stating he was depressed at times and even contemplated the thought. I for one would stand to see whatever could be done to make sure he doesnt do it. And if that means even using religion as a tool I would use it, yeah. You seem to leave it to him to do what he intends to do. That, to me, sounds apathetic and kinda inhuman Vijay (no offense of course). Sorry DC, didnt mean to bring you into this mate. :((
DomainK Posted January 23, 2012 Author Posted January 23, 2012 "Freedom to die" is a bullshit concept. It's like freedom to do drugs. There are things that the society has to discourage. There is no doubt that suicide is bad and should be discouraged. But sending to jail after a failed suicide attempt makes no sense to me.
yoda Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 You can abuse yourself to an extreme with poor eating habits and bad health habits like smoking and take yourself close to death, but can't actually commit the final act. There is something wrong with the picture. Either your life is totally protected by the state, which means keeping you healthy by controlling what you eat, drink or smoke or don't bother at all. If you are going to let the person handle his body for all practical purposes, how does it help to just prevent the one final act?
Alchemist Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 I think, for a person who is so depressed that he wants to end his life, a glimmer of HOPE is more important than FEAR of prison. So instead of puthing people under fear, we should give them hope. Because, afterall, HOPE is the only thing that keeps us going. everybody deep inside hopes for better future and tries to align their present actions with it.
Vijay.Sharma Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Really? Isn't that extremely apathetic of you(and us)? Look, a lot of such discussions are very much academic. We say things that we perhaps wouldnt in real life. Very few times we have a situation where we have some actual experience about this. This particular thread has one such person. DC has been brutally honest in stating he was depressed at times and even contemplated the thought. I for one would stand to see whatever could be done to make sure he doesnt do it. And if that means even using religion as a tool I would use it, yeah. You seem to leave it to him to do what he intends to do. That, to me, sounds apathetic and kinda inhuman Vijay (no offense of course). Sorry DC, didnt mean to bring you into this mate. :((Lurks, you haven't understood t,s,p,c reference at all. Also this discussion is not about what we must do to prevent a fellow human from committing suicide. This discussion is about the act of suicide. I am not saying encourage it, I am not saying be apathetic to it, I am not saying don't talk them out of it, and I am not even saying go help them do it. You have represented me totally out of context here, Lurks. My stance is this - Suicide cannot be treated as an absolute crime. Worse still, even if it is treated as a crime, jail is not the solution.
Lurker Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 My stance is this - Suicide cannot be treated as an absolute crime. Worse still' date= even if it is treated as a crime, jail is not the solution. Frankly I couldnt care less about the crime and punishment in case of suicide attempt. After life has beaten down someone so bad that his soul is in tatters, to the extent that he decides to take his own life, does it then matter what society punishes him a bit more? Hardly. My stance is that people will have situations in life where they develop suicidal tendencies. And when they do, we as human beings have this responsibility to be human and understanding. This whole notion of freedom to die is what I am against. You made that line, so not sure how I took it out of context. But if we are both saying the same thing its all good then :winky:
Lurker Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 I think' date=' for a person who is so depressed that he wants to end his life, a glimmer of HOPE is more important than FEAR of prison. So instead of puthing people under fear, we should give them hope. [b']Because, afterall, HOPE is the only thing that keeps us going. everybody deep inside hopes for better future and tries to align their present actions with it. ++++ Did you plagiarise my post :hmmm::hmmm: http://indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1793111&postcount=18 Kidding mate, happy to see we both agree
Singham Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Though the population in Kerala is only 3.1% of the national population the nearly 10% of the total suicide in India is taking place in Kerala. ****ing retards. http://www.ksmha.org/suicide.htm
Sachinism Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 You can abuse yourself to an extreme with poor eating habits and bad health habits like smoking and take yourself close to death, but can't actually commit the final act. There is something wrong with the picture. Either your life is totally protected by the state, which means keeping you healthy by controlling what you eat, drink or smoke or don't bother at all. If you are going to let the person handle his body for all practical purposes, how does it help to just prevent the one final act? Society requires you to die slowly, so they can squeeze you for everything you have
Lurker Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Though the population in Kerala is only 3.1% of the national population the nearly 10% of the total suicide in India is taking place in Kerala. ****ing retards. http://www.ksmha.org/suicide.htm Isnt Kerela the only state in the nation with sex ratio in favor of women? Women can do that to you :giggle::giggle: Sorry :((
Desi Cartman Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Really? Isn't that extremely apathetic of you(and us)? Look, a lot of such discussions are very much academic. We say things that we perhaps wouldnt in real life. Very few times we have a situation where we have some actual experience about this. This particular thread has one such person. DC has been brutally honest in stating he was depressed at times and even contemplated the thought. I for one would stand to see whatever could be done to make sure he doesnt do it. And if that means even using religion as a tool I would use it, yeah. You seem to leave it to him to do what he intends to do. That, to me, sounds apathetic and kinda inhuman Vijay (no offense of course). Sorry DC, didnt mean to bring you into this mate. :(( oh I never shy away from discussing depression because people who have never suffered from it have NO idea what it is. I use the phrase " its almost like brain has a brain of its own" meaning its completely out of control. Yes you are 100% right about support, its the only thing which made me come out of it. I took 4 months off from work, used to work from home for 2-3 days a week, had a great manager who used to call me at 11am to find out if I will be coming in for a meeting. Every time I thought of suicide I just imagined how my family members will feel. Now 2 main points: 1. One doesnt owe his life to society, in fact society makes it difficult for him to end his misery. Society should help people by letting them go if the patient wants to due to medical reasons. Its like Gay marriage, all fun and dandy to say I am for it or against it but does it really matter what your opinion is unless you are gay yourself ? 2. Religion: I see depression as an awakening. One wants to end his life as he realizes it doesnt mean anything. There is no god and in the end its all going to end into nothingness so there is no point in discussing what we are discussing and there is no point watching cricket. Its all meaningless. Dare I say, most people who are OTT religious are depressed themselves. When you realize that your life doesnt mean anything you look at others to explain to you what it means and you are ready to except that there is a god sitting on himalya with ganga coming out of his head or there was a guy 2000 years ago who was born to a virgin lady and bossbhai's favorite Mohammad and his splitting of moon in half. Do you think any sane person would believe all this ? can eating vegetarian food on Tuesdays make your life and after life better ? -- this is what most depressed people ask .. if they can convince themselves to buy these theories then they become religious but IMO are still depressed. PS: I mean the ones who go above and beyond in just believing a theory. I am talking about people who live for religion or are scared of god for life, since Im here I might hang on and experience it.. trust me this is what got me going again in life.
Desi Cartman Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Though the population in Kerala is only 3.1% of the national population the nearly 10% of the total suicide in India is taking place in Kerala. ****ing retards. http://www.ksmha.org/suicide.htm :headshake: BTW they also have 100% literacy which might have something to do with high expectations from life hence more disappointments
Lurker Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 oh I never shy away from discussing depression because people who have never suffered from it have NO idea what it is. I use the phrase " its almost like brain has a brain of its own" meaning its completely out of control. Yes you are 100% right about support, its the only thing which made me come out of it. I took 4 months off from work, used to work from home for 2-3 days a week, had a great manager who used to call me at 11am to find out if I will be coming in for a meeting. Every time I thought of suicide I just imagined how my family members will feel. Now 2 main points: 1. One doesnt owe his life to society, in fact society makes it difficult for him to end his misery. Society should help people by letting them go if the patient wants to due to medical reasons. Its like Gay marriage, all fun and dandy to say I am for it or against it but does it really matter what your opinion is unless you are gay yourself ? 2. Religion: I see depression as an awakening. One wants to end his life as he realizes it doesnt mean anything. There is no god and in the end its all going to end into nothingness so there is no point in discussing what we are discussing and there is no point watching cricket. Its all meaningless. Dare I say, most people who are OTT religious are depressed themselves. When you realize that your life doesnt mean anything you look at others to explain to you what it means and you are ready to except that there is a god sitting on himalya with ganga coming out of his head or there was a guy 2000 years ago who was born to a virgin lady and bossbhai's favorite Mohammad and his splitting of moon in half. Do you think any sane person would believe all this ? can eating vegetarian food on Tuesdays make your life and after life better ? -- this is what most depressed people ask .. if they can convince themselves to buy these theories then they become religious but IMO are still depressed. PS: I mean the ones who go above and beyond in just believing a theory. I am talking about people who live for religion or are scared of god for life, since Im here I might hang on and experience it.. trust me this is what got me going again in life. :hatsoff::hatsoff: to you DC. Hang in there, it gets better from here You raise some good points in there mate. Some of your thoughts reminded me of a line from Naseeruddin Shah in Lootere - Maut to yun hi badnaam hai, jaan to zindagi le leti hai. I liked how you linked awakening to depression. Yes it is fascinating how helplessness can make you question the convetional wisdom. The wordings like - Jo hota hai acche ke liye hota hai, Upparwaale ke khel bas wo hi jaanta hai yada yada do precious little to comfort. If anything it would make the person more aggressive I would think. So what did work for you? You mentioned the support system. Was it more family based? Parents? Siblings? Or someone close? You dont have to respond if it gets too personal.
Desi Cartman Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 :hatsoff::hatsoff: to you DC. Hang in there, it gets better from here You raise some good points in there mate. Some of your thoughts reminded me of a line from Naseeruddin Shah in Lootere - Maut to yun hi badnaam hai, jaan to zindagi le leti hai. I liked how you linked awakening to depression. Yes it is fascinating how helplessness can make you question the convetional wisdom. The wordings like - Jo hota hai acche ke liye hota hai, Upparwaale ke khel bas wo hi jaanta hai yada yada do precious little to comfort. If anything it would make the person more aggressive I would think. So what did work for you? You mentioned the support system. Was it more family based? Parents? Siblings? Or someone close? You dont have to respond if it gets too personal. Since I was aware of mental illnesses I was able to get the treatment started pretty early and that was the key because even when medication didnt work, there was someone telling me that its not all bad.. its just an illness and it can be cured. The problem is that there is no one medication for depression, it took the doc 2 years to find one which made a difference and till then it was family, friends, my openness about the illness and knowing that I cant give up for my loved ones.. plus I always wanted to experience being a husband ( :hysterical: not too smart I guess), a father, grow old etc. My parents and siblings know about the illness and knew how to help, so I guess awareness and not treating it as "Pagal ho gaya" was the key. It was always about being there for me and supporting me, not judging me and not crying in front me or feeling sorry for me. Funny thing is that you can not cure someone of depression. You can help them fight it and sedate them when they are low ... give them time to learn to fight it. Then it depends on how bad it is ,support system, financial help etc
Lurker Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Since I was aware of mental illnesses I was able to get the treatment started pretty early and that was the key because even when medication didnt work, there was someone telling me that its not all bad.. its just an illness and it can be cured. The problem is that there is no one medication for depression, it took the doc 2 years to find one which made a difference and till then it was family, friends, my openness about the illness and knowing that I cant give up for my loved ones.. plus I always wanted to experience being a husband ( :hysterical: not too smart I guess), a father, grow old etc. My parents and siblings know about the illness and knew how to help, so I guess awareness and not treating it as "Pagal ho gaya" was the key. It was always about being there for me and supporting me, not judging me and not crying in front me or feeling sorry for me. Funny thing is that you can not cure someone of depression. You can help them fight it and sedate them when they are low ... give them time to learn to fight it. Then it depends on how bad it is ,support system, financial help etc Good on you Desibaba :--D and :hatsoff: to your family for being so understanding. Thats the key, isn't it? Specially in a country like ours where depression is almost always looked down upon. A lot of what you said I can only imagine, but I can not. Imagine someone having non-stop sneezing for 2 years and Doctors being unable to find whats causing it? And thats only a sneezing act. What do you do when its in the mind? How you do battle your own self? :( Well looks like you did. Good for you mate
Desi Cartman Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Good on you Desibaba :--D and :hatsoff: to your family for being so understanding. Thats the key, isn't it? Specially in a country like ours where depression is almost always looked down upon. A lot of what you said I can only imagine, but I can not. Imagine someone having non-stop sneezing for 2 years and Doctors being unable to find whats causing it? And thats only a sneezing act. What do you do when its in the mind? How you do battle your own self? :( Well looks like you did. Good for you mate Its funny when people who dont know shyt about mental illness make fun of them or say they are being lazy or can never recover. I mean people really have no clue but everyone has an opinion regarding mental illness. Some of educated people I have met think once you get into depression then later or sooner you'll jump from a building. :--D
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