chainsmoker1985 Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 Regardless of what you say I cannot agree that Wasim Akram knows how to coach PACE. Very, very few coaches understand this least of all someone who bowled himself with an unusual action that was untaught. Before you can educate others you have to know how the apply that to another person. Wasim, a great bowler he was, cannot coach PACE. Secondly, as with batting, fielding, wicket-keeping...technique is the most important thing and the SKILL level of the player. To suggest that fitness is the most important part is madness. Fitness is a function of fast bowling and if you bowl enough you will be fit. You get skill from bowling not from the gym. If we follow your logic, the best cricketers will be athletes, weight lifters and body builders. But we can see that the best bowlers like Lee, Anderson and Steyn are not strong or big muscles. The point here that I was trying to convey- as a bowler, definitely you will be doing enough bowling and you will be learning about skills of bowling. There was no need to mention about it. But, even learning about all those skills would be incomplete without proper fitness. If you don't have the proper fitness and strength in your body, then even your skills doesn't matter that much. So, skills and fitness are both equally important. The biggest example is Munaf Patel. That guy in my opinion had tremendous potential, not only pace wise, but as an overall bowler. I remember his first series against England, how he troubled Englishmen with his swing and reverse swing. But, this guy is still just an ordinary bowler in international cricket and has played only 13 tests and 70 ODIs. One more point that I wanted to make was- We Indians are not natural athletes so the importance of fitness is even more for people like us.
CG Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 The point here that I was trying to convey- as a bowler, definitely you will be doing enough bowling and you will be learning about skills of bowling. There was no need to mention about it. But, even learning about all those skills would be incomplete without proper fitness. If you don't have the proper fitness and strength in your body, then even your skills doesn't matter that much. So, skills and fitness are both equally important. The biggest example is Munaf Patel. That guy in my opinion had tremendous potential, not only pace wise, but as an overall bowler. I remember his first series against England, how he troubled Englishmen with his swing and reverse swing. But, this guy is still just an ordinary bowler in international cricket and has played only 13 tests and 70 ODIs. One more point that I wanted to make was- We Indians are not natural athletes so the importance of fitness is even more for people like us. Isn't the job of a physical trainer.
ChanaLal Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 TA Sekar should just be appointed' date=' he has the best record with fast bowling coaching. All over the world, people look to Dennis Lillee and him as THE best men for fast bowling coaching[/quote'] Not so. Just google world's best fast bowling coach and see which coaches comes up: LINK
ChanaLal Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 I disagree with you. Even though I'm not too fond of pak cricketers' date=' Wasim post-retirement has become a very good mentor and coach. If you need any proof of his effectiveness, just look at what he has done with Shami Ahmed in a few months with KKR. That guy is one to watch out for. Plus, throughout the Aussie series the tv crew often showed the aussie bowlers talking to him (mitchell starc was a prominent one). He knows the nuances of pace bowling better than most 'experts' at the moment.[/quote'] 1. Ask Wasim how pace is generated and he believes you are born with it 2. If you think that by 'listening' to people talk you can convert that into better bowling without understanding what to physiologically do then you are mistaken 3. Wasim doesn't understand, know or coach pace biomechanics I agree Wasim has a value for the 'mental' aspect of cricket and can help with confidence. But please don't tell us Wasim can COACH pace bowling because he isn't a pace bowling coach... he is an advisor. It isn't the 'nuances' of fast bowling I am talking about here..EVERY international or former first class fast bowler has that and can pass it on. I am talking about coach speed and pace into our phaaaast bowlers. That takes time, knowledge, understanding and an impeccable grasp of how to generate pace from each action. Wasim doesn't have that.
ChanaLal Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 Isn't the job of a physical trainer. 100%. If we have a bowling coach talking about fitness, then he is doing the wrong role. What next? The team doctor teaching our bowers how to bowl good yorkers?
chainsmoker1985 Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 1. Ask Wasim how pace is generated and he believes you are born with it 2. If you think that by 'listening' to people talk you can convert that into better bowling without understanding what to physiologically do then you are mistaken 3. Wasim doesn't understand, know or coach pace biomechanics I agree Wasim has a value for the 'mental' aspect of cricket and can help with confidence. But please don't tell us Wasim can COACH pace bowling because he isn't a pace bowling coach... he is an advisor. It isn't the 'nuances' of fast bowling I am talking about here..EVERY international or former first class fast bowler has that and can pass it on. I am talking about coach speed and pace into our phaaaast bowlers. That takes time, knowledge, understanding and an impeccable grasp of how to generate pace from each action. Wasim doesn't have that. Yar, you have wrong perception over here about Wasim Akram. He is an excellent coach, not only from 'mental boost' aspect but as an overall bowling bio-mechanics, skills or advising players about right things as well. And he is saying the right thing that you are born with pace or you are a natural pacer. What is wrong in that? You can convert a 125 k bowler to a 135 k bowler max. Similarly, to become a genuine pacer, you first needs to be a 90 mph bowler. Secondly, he is an Asian as well and he understands the mentality of Indian players quite well. Whenever we appoint some white coach for our bowlers, the first thing that come to our minds is, can that guy be able to adjust with our players or can our players be able to adjust with that person? There is no such problem with Wasim Akram. IMO, Wasim Akram is one of the best bowling coaches in the world going around.
chainsmoker1985 Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 100%. If we have a bowling coach talking about fitness' date=' then he is doing the wrong role. What next? The team doctor teaching our bowers how to bowl good yorkers?[/quote'] You again mistook me over here. I was not backing the appointment of Joe Dawes. We can't say anything about him atm. That we will be able to find out whether he is a good coach or not, with the course of time. I was saying that Joe has right mindset that he is giving equal importance to fitness and physique of players as well apart from bowling skills. That may be the duty of fitness trainer or doctor but a bowling coach just cannot ignore or deny the importance of fitness as well.
ChanaLal Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 Yar' date=' you have wrong perception over here about Wasim Akram. He is an excellent coach, not only from 'mental boost' aspect but as an overall bowling bio-mechanics, skills or advising players about right things as well. [b']And he is saying the right thing that you are born with pace or you are a natural pacer. What is wrong in that? You can convert a 125 k bowler to a 135 k bowler max. Similarly, to become a genuine pacer, you first needs to be a 90 mph bowler. Secondly, he is an Asian as well and he understands the mentality of Indian players quite well. Whenever we appoint some white coach for our bowlers, the first thing that come to our minds is, can that guy be able to adjust with our players or can our players be able to adjust with that person? There is no such problem with Wasim Akram. IMO, Wasim Akram is one of the best bowling coaches in the world going around. And he is saying the right thing that you are born with pace or you are a natural pacer. What is wrong in that? :WTF: You are not born a doctor, lawyer, formula one racing driver, biologist, stocks and shares trader etc etc etc.. these are processes that can be learned. Humans are process based learners and when you break down fast bowling into processes, you can teach pace into bowlers. You can bowl faster, jump higher, throw further, hit harder - by having coaches who KNOW what to do and how to do it. I am not sure Wasim knows this from his comments. That is my point.
chainsmoker1985 Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 And he is saying the right thing that you are born with pace or you are a natural pacer. What is wrong in that? :WTF: You are not born a doctor, lawyer, formula one racing driver, biologist, stocks and shares trader etc etc etc.. these are processes that can be learned. Humans are process based learners and when you break down fast bowling into processes, you can teach pace into bowlers. You can bowl faster, jump higher, throw further, hit harder - by having coaches who KNOW what to do and how to do it. I am not sure Wasim knows this from his comments. That is my point. Hey bhagwan !! :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: Bhai, koi isko 'born with pace' ka matlab samjhao. He is taking it literally word by word. About, your second doubt(you can.....how to do it), I already answered it yar. Here it is Yar' date=' you have wrong perception over here about Wasim Akram. He is an excellent coach, not only from 'mental boost' aspect but as an overall bowling bio-mechanics, skills or advising players about right things as well. And he is saying the right thing that you are born with pace or you are a natural pacer. What is wrong in that? [b']You can convert a 125 k bowler to a 135 k bowler max. Similarly, to become a genuine pacer, you first needs to be a 90 mph bowler. You can't convert 128 k bowler into 150k bowler. Thats the whole point.
CG Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 Hey bhagwan !! :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: Bhai, koi isko 'born with pace' ka matlab samjhao. He is taking it literally word by word. About, your second doubt(you can.....how to do it), I already answered it yar. Here it is You can't convert 128 k bowler into 150k bowler. Thats the whole point. You can but it would require huge amount of training and discipline.Look at finn guy was 130k when he started now he is 150k,same with ishant.Regarding akram i would not want a guy who speaks rubbish day in day out ,One day he says youngsters should be given a chance next he says bring back the senior players ,he blasted bhajji in england tour and now suddenly wants him back in australia he is a joke.
ChanaLal Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 Hey bhagwan !! :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: Bhai, koi isko 'born with pace' ka matlab samjhao. He is taking it literally word by word. About, your second doubt(you can.....how to do it), I already answered it yar. Here it is You can't convert 128 k bowler into 150k bowler. Thats the whole point. Depends on the coach bhai. Wasim cannot so says it is not possible. TA Shekar cannot so says pace it not important. Eric Simmons doesn't think you can. Venky Prasad doesn't have any answers. If you listen to these guys then you will believe it too. Sounds like you listen to the nay sayers. 400 years ago people said the Earth was FLAT. 150 years ago people said man cannot fly. 100 years ago people didn't believe anyone could design a car to run faster than a horse. 50 years ago people said it is impossible to put a man on the moon. 40 years ago doctors said smoking was GOOD for you. 30 years ago people said running faster than 10 seconds for 100m was not possible. 20 years ago people said scoring at more than 8 an over was very difficult. 10 years ago people said a ball swings due to cloud cover. Compared to the above, today we have similar people saying you born with pace or not and cannot coach it. :hysterical:
mhr123 Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 Hey bhagwan !! :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: Bhai, koi isko 'born with pace' ka matlab samjhao. He is taking it literally word by word. About, your second doubt(you can.....how to do it), I already answered it yar. Here it is You can't convert 128 k bowler into 150k bowler. Thats the whole point. Just look at Imran Khan's carrier... he started as a medium pacer and played few matches but was clobbered to all part of the ground.. when he was dropped he changed his complete bowling style (look at his pre and post bowling style) ... did lot of workout .. came back with strong bowling muscles... and this changed him from a military medium to a most feared fast bowler of his time..
Trundler27 Posted February 16, 2012 Author Posted February 16, 2012 so now the argument has shifted to whether a bowling coach can help 'increase the pace of a bowler'. Here's my opinion: A bowling coach should ideally locate the strength of a bowler and help him get better at that. For ex. if ishant's strength is getting disconcerting bounce from a short of good length, then a coach should help him do that 99% of the time in a match situation (which he doesn't do even 50% of the time currently). Once he gets good at it, the pace will improve for sure coz he is natually a 140ish pace bowler. Ideally a bowling attack needs variety in terms of pace, bounce, swing, seam, and spin. That is what a bowling coach should strive to achieve. And YES, certain guys are born with the natural tendency to bowl phaaast and maintain that pace naturally without having to put in 'extra effort'. A coach can not help you do that. Guys like Finn had that ability but weren't probably using it. Hence you see how he easily maintains a pace of 145+ without much trouble. Same is the case with Umesh.
chainsmoker1985 Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 Depends on the coach bhai. Wasim cannot so says it is not possible. TA Shekar cannot so says pace it not important. Eric Simmons doesn't think you can. Venky Prasad doesn't have any answers. If you listen to these guys then you will believe it too. Sounds like you listen to the nay sayers. 400 years ago people said the Earth was FLAT. 150 years ago people said man cannot fly. 100 years ago people didn't believe anyone could design a car to run faster than a horse. 50 years ago people said it is impossible to put a man on the moon. 40 years ago doctors said smoking was GOOD for you. 30 years ago people said running faster than 10 seconds for 100m was not possible. 20 years ago people said scoring at more than 8 an over was very difficult. 10 years ago people said a ball swings due to cloud cover. Compared to the above, today we have similar people saying you born with pace or not and cannot coach it. :hysterical: But where are those miraculous coaches who can convert 128 k bowlers to 150 k bowler? Yes there are exceptions everywhere. We can't keep on insisting to find such coaches who are exceptional. So, whatever we have in our hand, Wasim was the best choice.
chainsmoker1985 Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 Just look at Imran Khan's carrier... he started as a medium pacer and played few matches but was clobbered to all part of the ground.. when he was dropped he changed his complete bowling style (look at his pre and post bowling style) ... did lot of workout .. came back with strong bowling muscles... and this changed him from a military medium to a most feared fast bowler of his time.. I agree but he was still not an out and out fast bowler. He was 140 k bowler. You can search about him on google or youtube. He was not a 150 k bowler. Your example of Imran Khan is again proving my point. You can add maximum of 10-12 ks in your bowling by training and fitness but not more than that. To become an out and out fast bowler, you first need to be a 90 mph bowler.
ChanaLal Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 I agree but he was still not an out and out fast bowler. He was 140 k bowler. You can search about him on google or youtube. He was not a 150 k bowler. Your example of Imran Khan is again proving my point. You can add maximum of 10-12 ks in your bowling by training and fitness but not more than that. To become an out and out fast bowler, you first need to be a 90 mph bowler. ...and the Earth is flat right bhai? :giggle:
adhishwar Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 He is overrated for me because he has not done what is required of a bowling coach which is to refine the fast bowlers. He has been mainly doing hunting all around India to find young guys with potential and pick them and bring them to MRF but they have not molded them. Most of these guys who went to MRF were all finds like Zak, Munaf, Pathan, Aaron, etc. I have seen enough fast bowlers coming from MRF who are so unfinished and raw even after so many years of coaching. What is the use of coaching when they cannot even refine their basics like bowling action and runup. Varun Aaron has been attending MRF since the age of 15 when Shekhar found him in a hunt at the age of 15, but his bowling action and runup still are very unrefined, same thing is with PK Dharma from Tamilandu, and Rituraj Singh another example. Academies in India are useless and overrated because there is no full time academy where player stay and learn the art for a month or 2 , but they just organize camp for 2 weeks at a stretch 1-2 times a year which is not good enough to make and refine a fast bowler. For your info, TA Sekar has quit MRF 4 years ago. Still to date, all Indian fast bowlers consider him as their best coach. Ask any Indian fast bowler about him they'd say he is the best coach. And what do you mean by unrefined?
adhishwar Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 He better be good. If India doesn't have a consistent 155ks bowler in the next 2 yrs' date=' I would sack this and hire TA Sekar. Donno why do we have to go outside India and lick people up, when we have experienced people like TA Sekar, who has trained the best and fastest bowlers on the planet[/quote'] Can't agree more with you!!
saneindian Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 He's already been written off even before he's started working with the bowlers. Thats a great way to start a coaching career. The little that I have read on Dawes tells me he will be a good guide for the bowlers and will surely make them more skillful. I would be more than happy if he can help sustain the pace our fast bowlers bowl at and add a few helpful skills like the yorkers, varying their length, sticking to a consistent line etc over a period of time rather than converting a 90 mph bowler to a 160 kmph beast who spends more time in the hospitals than on cricket fields.
rkt.india Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 For your info' date=' TA Sekar has quit MRF 4 years ago. Still to date, all Indian fast bowlers consider him as their best coach. Ask any Indian fast bowler about him they'd say he is the best coach. And what do you mean by unrefined?[/quote'] Yes..I know he quit MRF 4 years ago but most of the bowlers I took name were coached by him at MRF.
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