Bumper Posted July 23, 2007 Author Posted July 23, 2007 I know that the big two are the culprits. But lets be realistic here. Dravid is our captain, he'll continue to play. Besides he's allowed a poor run, after a spectacular run of form, not so long ago. Sachin is god. U cant drop him citing performance as a criteria. Our cricket simply doesnt work like that. All he needs to do is score a 100 in this tour. His 4 or 5 other failures will be forgotten & people will hail him as a great again. That'll also renew his lease with the team for another year. Only bakras who can make way for Yuvraj are Dhoni, Laxman & Ganguly. Dhoni has just played an innings of his career so far. Dhoni, (along with Sehwag), stands testimony to the fact that attitude scores over technique 9 out of 10 times. The conditions for batting may have been more friendly in the 4th innings, but NONE of our superstars showed the spine and stomach for a fight that Dhoni exhibited. It would be stupid to drop him now. That leaves us with Ganguly & Laxman. The worse of the two and the team's most favorite bakra Laxman, gotta make way. I dont feel sorry or sympathetic for him. He may not be the worst of our batsmen, but he is not significantly better than any of them either. Plus batting at 6, he's never gonna score more than 30 or 40. Why Yuvraj ? Heck why not ? What have we gotta lose anyways ? If Yuvraj hits par (his avg), the results wont be any poorer. But there is a good chance that he may play a big knock or two. At no. 6, when the ball loses its shine, he wont be as vulnerable and most importantly, he's not one that hangs around. If he spends 2 hours at the crease, he'll have a 50 against his name. Blood Yuvraj now.
gator Posted July 23, 2007 Posted July 23, 2007 the only thing, tht can be changed in the team right now is the inclusion of Sehwag for Jaff and Chawla for Kumble... otherwise, this is the best we got... both have to be flown in mid-series and tht aint gonna happen...
ludhianvi Posted July 23, 2007 Posted July 23, 2007 It seems everybody has sort of kept their places. I think we will see the same batting lineup. The only bit of question is that of Laxman.
Dhondy Posted July 23, 2007 Posted July 23, 2007 the only thing' date=' tht can be changed in the team right now is the inclusion of Sehwag for Jaff and [b']Chawla for Kumble... otherwise, this is the best we got... both have to be flown in mid-series and tht aint gonna happen... I have never heard such utter, unmitigated balderdash in my life. This is up there with your championing of VRV Singh, Gats. Are you alright, Boss?
gator Posted July 23, 2007 Posted July 23, 2007 I have never heard such utter, unmitigated balderdash in my life. This is up there with your championing of VRV Singh, Gats. Are you alright, Boss? Doc... tht is the problem with our mentality of playing our veterans till their limbs drop off... Kumble totally lacked penetration... to sum it up, Monty was far more penetrative against batters who were far more adept at playing spin.... Kumble clearly lacks penetration.... Balderdash is the theory tht spinners cant win matches in England who are one of the lousiest players of spin... Warnie and the Javelin thrower have won matches on their own on english pitches and I am sorry to say, Kumble has a pathetic overseas record... and it doesnt look like, it is improving either... at the most he is jus a stock bowler in these conditions and i dont want one, when we have only 4 bowlers....
coffee_rules Posted July 23, 2007 Posted July 23, 2007 It's the same dilemma Eng faced in 2005. Thorpe or Pieterson. Once Pieterson scored a 50 in the first test...Thorpe retired from test cricket as he knew the selectors would not go for him if that was the only option. We need Laxman or Ganguly to retire for Yuvraj to get in, else DBV/Dravid has to take that hard decision.
kumble_rocks Posted July 23, 2007 Posted July 23, 2007 Doc... tht is the problem with our mentality of playing our veterans till their limbs drop off... Kumble totally lacked penetration... to sum it up' date=' Monty was far more penetrative against batters who were far more adept at playing spin.... Kumble clearly lacks penetration.... Balderdash is the theory tht spinners cant win matches in England who are one of the lousiest players of spin... Warnie and the Javelin thrower have won matches on their own on english pitches and I am sorry to say, [b']Kumble has a pathetic overseas record... and it doesnt look like, it is improving either... at the most he is jus a stock bowler in these conditions and i dont want one, when we have only 4 bowlers.... What are you on about Gats ? Kumble did well in the last two overseas tour. Kumble had a good SA series wherein he averaged 24.71 with the bowl and grabbed 14 wickets and played important role in our victory in the first test. And even in the bangla test series , he averaged 20.80 with the bowl and grabbed 5 wickets although his service was not needed much. And , even in this test , he grabbed the important wickets of well set Strauss and Collingwood.
Lurker Posted July 23, 2007 Posted July 23, 2007 Gator is not entirely wrong KR/Dhondy. Kumble ended up the Test with 140-3. Hardly worthy of a good spinner. The fact is Kumble had never performed in England, even half as good as Warne or Murali. Kumble is India's best bowler. We need him to have a Test match figure of 150/7 or 150/8 if India has to press for a win. If Kumble dishes out 140/3 I daresay get in Bhajji or Chawla.
gator Posted July 23, 2007 Posted July 23, 2007 my point is not, tht Kumble is a useless bowler... point, he is not a match-winner oveaseas.... period... all the excuses of unhelpful pitches dont hold water, cos on the same pitches against English Bunnies, Warne and Murali have won matches on their own.... forget winning matches, against the english batters, he looks far less penetrative than even Monty against far better spin players.... lets stick to debating those 2 points...
Dhondy Posted July 23, 2007 Posted July 23, 2007 Doc... tht is the problem with our mentality of playing our veterans till their limbs drop off... Kumble totally lacked penetration... to sum it up' date=' Monty was far more penetrative against batters who were far more adept at playing spin.... Kumble clearly lacks penetration.... Balderdash is the theory tht spinners cant win matches in England who are one of the lousiest players of spin... Warnie and the Javelin thrower have won matches on their own on english pitches and I am sorry to say, Kumble has a pathetic overseas record... and it doesnt look like, it is improving either... at the most he is jus a stock bowler in these conditions and i dont want one, when we have only 4 bowlers....[/quote'] Utter rubbish, Gats. You know pretty well that he's lifted his game hugely in the last three years. Here are his series performances in the last 5 outings overseas against non-minnows. Australia 2003/4- 3 Tests, 24 wickets@ 29.58. Pakistan 2004- 3 Tests, 15 wickets@ 25.93 Pakistan 2006- 3 Tests, 9 wickets@ 69.88 West Indies 2006, 4 Tests, 23 wickets @ 28.6 South Africa 2007, 3 Tests, 14 wickets @ 24.71 Let's not have this kind of slander of a great player again please, Gats.
gator Posted July 23, 2007 Posted July 23, 2007 all power to u, Doc.... if those stats above reflect some kinda greatness...
Dhondy Posted July 23, 2007 Posted July 23, 2007 Nope, you are being obdurate, Gats. Those are overseas stats. Compare that with any other spinner in the history of Indian cricket, or a pacer if you like, and tell me the man is ready to be replaced.
kabira Posted July 23, 2007 Posted July 23, 2007 With two left armers from our side and one from English side, we need offspiner as well.
gator Posted July 23, 2007 Posted July 23, 2007 Nope, you are being obdurate, Gats. Those are overseas stats. Compare that with any other spinner in the history of Indian cricket, or a pacer if you like, and tell me the man is ready to be replaced. why cant he be compared to his peers from other countries on those same pitches, Dhonds... Afterall, we are supposed to be the Mecca of spin bowling...
Dhondy Posted July 23, 2007 Posted July 23, 2007 Absolutely Gats. Look up Murali's stats on his last trip to Australia, SA, Pakistan and WI and post them here. Let's have some facts from you.
gator Posted July 23, 2007 Posted July 23, 2007 Murali won SL a test in England against a very similar batting lineup last year in similar conditions.... do u agree???
Dhondy Posted July 23, 2007 Posted July 23, 2007 Gats, you know I am not one for cicular arguments. We'll compare Murali and Kumble's England stats after this series. If you want to have a debate, post the stats of Warne and Murali away from home on their last five series against non minnows, and then we can have a debate.
gator Posted July 23, 2007 Posted July 23, 2007 Absolutely Gats. Look up Murali's stats on his last trip to Australia, SA, Pakistan and WI and post them here. Let's have some facts from you. Since there is an english tour going on and I have specifically called for Kumble's head on this tour, I think it will make sense to compare him against his peers in England in similar conditions, especially them being one of the poorest players of spin bowling in the world along with south Africa.... Warne has 129 wickets from 22 matches at an average of 22.... Kumble has 25 wickets from 8 tests at an average of "hold ur breath" 45... ( Can you do worse? ) Murali has 48 wickets from 6 tests at an average of 19..... Lets look at the second tier spinners now.... Vettori has 14 wickets in 6 tests at an average of 32... (mediocre) chandra has 31 wickets in 9 tests at average of 33.... (mediocre) Mushtaq has 32 wickets from 8 tests at an average of 28... ( Above average) Our own maninder singh has 12 wickets from 3 tests at an average of "hold ur breath" 15... ( Best, but least sample size).... Now, why do u believe, there are no spin bowlers in india who can fare better than the worst of this list....
Dhondy Posted July 23, 2007 Posted July 23, 2007 Selective stats. You have deliberately included the English tours, knowing very well that Kumble last toured 5 years ago, when he was indeed a mediocre bowler overseas. He's improved by leaps and bounds since that Aussie tour in 2003. In any case, I am not really enjoying a discussion directed at discrediting our greatest ever bowler with a fellow fan. I am out of this.
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