Whom do you drop ?

[gator]

In any case, I am not really enjoying a discussion directed at discrediting our greatest ever bowler with a fellow fan. I am out of this.

not my intention to make u feel uncomfortable, Dhonds... i am a big fan of his too... but i jus feel, it is time to move on...

[kumble_rocks]

not my intention to make u feel uncomfortable' date=' Dhonds... i am a big fan of his too... but i jus feel, it is time to move on...[/quote'] Gator , why are you discounting his good overseas performance in the recently concluded SA and Bangladesh series. Let's see after this series where we stand with regards to kumble. Surely , we better have good options instead of Harby who has worse record overseas than kumble.

[gator]

Gator ' date=' why are you discounting his good overseas performance in the recently concluded SA and Bangladesh series. Let's see after this series where we stand with regards to kumble. Surely , we better have good options instead of Harby who has worse record overseas than kumble.[/quote'] his average performance (definitely not ground-breaking) in SA and Bangladesh are like a pee(a) in the ocean, KR.... even i find it hard to face it... Kumble is a big failure overseas... look at Kapil for instance, he has won matches and taken wickets everywhere.... he has had series-winning performances both home and away.... by series winning, i mean 5-6 wkts/match at less than 20 average.... u will see Kumble have performances like tht, only at home... tht is a fact... look at any great bowler in history, u will see them have those series winning performance both home and away....

[The Outsider]

No disrespect to Kapil but :

look at Kapil for instance, he has won matches and taken wickets everywhere

:hysterical::hysterical: Kumble has won twice as many test matches than Kapil in fewer tests.

he has had series-winning performances both home and away.... by series winning, i mean 5-6 wkts/match at less than 20 average

:cantstop::cantstop: Name one!!

[gator]

Quote: look at Kapil for instance, he has won matches and taken wickets everywhere :hysterical::hysterical: Kumble has won twice as many test matches than Kapil in fewer tests.

do u read only half the sentence everytime??? i said - EVERYWHERE. not who has won matches more often... i already conceded, Kumble is the greatest indian bowler....

[The Outsider]

do u read only half the sentence everytime???

Not sure about that but am pretty sure you read just half the post given that you have not responded to your claim of Kapil putting up series winning performances per your definition. Name one, just one series winning (by your definition) performance of Kapil in his entire career of 131 tests.

i said - EVERYWHERE. not who has won matches more often.

Kumble has won 3 times more matches abroad than Kapil abroad at pretty much the same average in fewer tests.

[gator]

Quote: i said - EVERYWHERE. not who has won matches more often. Kumble has won 3 times more matches abroad than Kapil abroad at pretty much the same average in fewer tests.

severe comprehension issues here.... read the above quote.... i said, it is not a question of how often, but performance everywhere.... and u come back and post, kumble has won matches more often than kapil...

[The Outsider]

severe comprehension issues here.... read the above quote.... i said' date=' it is not a question of how often, but performance everywhere.... and u come back and post, kumble has won matches more often than kapil...[/quote'] Why don't you start off with naming one series winning performance by Kapil as defined by you? Performance everywhere? I've already shown how Kumble has won three times more tests than Kapil abroad (read, everywhere) in fewer tests at pretty much the same average and a much better strike rate. But just for pedants here are there averages away (irrespective of match result and discounting how spinners are generally more ineffective abroad and also the general trend of spinners having worse averages than seamers) : Kumble :

[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER](6 ball overs)       Mat    O       R   W   BBI    BBM     Ave  Econ    SR  5 10

unfiltered           116 6013.2 15909 555 10/74  14/149  28.66  2.64  65.0 33  8
filtered              60 2923    8203 230  8/141 12/279  35.66  2.80  76.2  9  1

Kapil :

(6 ball overs) Mat O R W BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 unfiltered 131 4623.2 12867 434 9/83 11/146 29.64 2.78 63.9 23 2 filtered 66 2588.1 7064 215 8/85 8/85 32.85 2.72 72.2 12 0

So, where is your series winner Kapil? Let me bring a quick end to this BS. Kapil was a part of one overseas series win in his entire career in the absence of Kumble and a total of 4 tests over all in which he took a grand total of 16 wickets. Now relax, and go to bed.

[King]

It is ridiculous to even suggest Kumble should be dropped. Kumble provided with 2 crucial wickets on the 1st evening from where the Indian fight back started. Monty on 5th day pitch couldn't do much. Moreover he's been in fantastic form of late too and he has played all his cricket in UK. That tells the story doesn't it? I guess none should be dropped from the team. If Yuvi has to warm the bench, well tough luck. Laxman has done that many times in the past despite proving to be a match winner.

[gator]

It is ridiculous to even suggest Kumble should be dropped. Kumble provided with 2 crucial wickets on the 1st evening from where the Indian fight back started. Monty on 5th day pitch couldn't do much. Moreover he's been in fantastic form of late too and he has played all his cricket in UK. That tells the story doesn't it? I guess none should be dropped from the team. If Yuvi has to warm the bench' date=' well tough luck. Laxman has done that many times in the past despite proving to be a match winner.[/quote'] Ravi... englishmen are weak playerrs of good spin bowling... kumble has not done anything of note compared to the number of times warne or the javelin thrower have won series for their countries overseas... i believe, kumble is an average bowler overseas... i dont know, why people are finding the whole idea so horrifying..... if an average of 35 in overseas matches are match-winning, then :thumbs_up:

[The Outsider]

if an average of 35 in overseas matches are match-winning, then

If your criteria of series winning is an average of 33 by a pace bowler, an average of 35 by a spinner abroad is mayhem. :thumbs_up:

[gator]

Shwetbh, why dont u take some time and look at the difference in stats between kapil and kumble overseas... i dont know, wat u r blabbering cos i see, Kapil has better stats, though they are still average... but then the point is, kumble is definitely not the best overseas bowler, we had....

[gator]

If your criteria of series winning is an average of 33 by a pace bowler' date=' an average of 35 by a spinner abroad is mayhem. :thumbs_up:[/quote'] read my posts carefully.... i implied, even kapil has a better overseas record in terms of closeness to series winning figures... against non-minnows, kumble has an overseas average of 37 and kapil has an average of 32.8..... tht is a **** load of difference... one is decent and the other is ahem...

[The Outsider]

why dont u take some time and look at the difference in stats between kapil and kumble overseas... i dont know, wat u r blabbering cos i see, Kapil has better stats, though they are still average... but then the point is, kumble is definitely not the best overseas bowler, we had....

Let's start with Kapil being a series winner abroad shall we? Kapil has better stats? How so? A couple of points better in average for a pace bowler compared to a spinner is not better. If we forget Murali, who is a cheat by your definition and an unparalleled genius by mine, either way not part of the normal scheme of things it's blatantly obvious that fast bowlers and spinners considered of the same pedigree differ in averages by a good 3-4 RPO. Just given that differential and not accounting for more favorable conditions for pace bowling away, Kumble comes out to be the comprehensive winner between him and Kapil.

[The Outsider]

i implied, even kapil has a better overseas record in terms of closeness to series winning figures... against non-minnows,

Can you back the following up :

look at Kapil for instance, he has won matches and taken wickets everywhere.... he has had series-winning performances both home and away.... by series winning, i mean 5-6 wkts/match at less than 20 average..

[yoda]

Kumble is untouchable right now, probably more than even Dravid. Chawla needs to be played alongside so that he can take over at some point. Present day chawla is only fit to take advice from Kumble and possiblt play along, not replace him in the active roster.

[King]

Ravi... englishmen are weak playerrs of good spin bowling... kumble has not done anything of note compared to the number of times warne or the javelin thrower have won series for their countries overseas... i believe' date=' kumble is an average bowler overseas... i dont know, why people are finding the whole idea so horrifying..... if an average of 35 in overseas matches are match-winning, then :thumbs_up:[/quote'] Kumble is still not persisted with because he has the form of mid 90s when he used to struggle overseas. If he struggled that consistently by now he would have been dropped. It's as simple as that. Unlike Tendulkar, Rahul or Ganguly Kumble gets no favour either from fans or from the selection. He is one non controversial player and if he is still the number one bowler for India that is because of his consistent record. BTW Dhondy put together Anil's performance over the last few years, didn't you check that? Just to remind you (I know you already know this) Kumble was not the first choice spinner when Ganguly was the captain Harbhajan was the first choice spinner and only because he was injured did Anil got a chance to play in Australia. I'm sure you will already know how well he's done since then. I think you should give Anil a bit of leeway considering the number of matches he wins for India.

[King Tendulkar]

Its easy. Tendulkar is embrassing himself and the team' date=' drop him.[/quote'] O dear some people never learn! I sense serious egg on face coming up

[CC1981]

Far more maddening is our inflexibility in the lineup.Dravid is clearly struggling at top & Laxman is a very competent #3 - and averages 48+ in that position. Just over a year ago he got a 100 & a 50 in the same match batting at 3. Dravid shuffling down the order is not such a bad thing in the short term. Gives him a better chance to regain his form & guide the tail. I'd take it a step further and play Ganguly at #4 and Tendulkar at #5- the little master is fast losing membership of the 'masters club on recent form' and he too would benifit comming down the order. Ganguly showed excellent fight & improvisation in this test and i hope you guys noticed that Ganguly wasn't particularly bothered in either of his innings. He didn't go on for a big one but his batting was one of the more assured ones from the Indian batting lineup. Yuvvy can come in at #7 if Dhoni is dropped but i do not think our batting lineup needs anything more than a 'revamp' by re-arranging the batting order a bit. Though i'd give Yuvvy a better chance than Dhoni against the pacers, he's gonna be a walking wicket against Monty. So Yuvvy-Dhoni is a tossup really and if anyone is to be dropped, I'd drop Dhoni for next test. Dhoni is the logical choice- our side is playing two keepers and lets bite the bullet, gamble on us batting first (that way karthik gets a breather between batting & keeping) and ask karthik to carry the extra burden of keeping for a test. We could also switch in RP for Powar for the next test, depending on our pitch assessment. RP did well this test but if the ball is not going to seam, RP is going to be totally useless (ie, if its an English flat-top). Including Powar might also go a bit ways to releive pressure on our ailing batting lineup. Our next test roster should read: Jaffer Karthik Laxman Ganguly Tendulkar Dravid Dhoni/Yuvraj Kumble Khan Sreesanth RP/Powar

[Chandan]

Because the current batting lineup isnt good enuff to win a test match on current form. I would like to try Yuvraj. He too can score 50 runs in two innings like Laxman did' date=' but offers more hope to me[/quote'] Would you have said the same thing after this match too?