Mohnish Parmar: Hung out by BCCI to dry

[Crookbond]

You tell me from the videos that he is not completely straightening his arm? There is good reason to where long sleeves, and umpires can't keep track of every single action and how would they measure how much they straightened anyways. These players have been taking liberty of lack of technology to monitor there every action, and thumbs up to them for exploiting it. Murli laughed all the way to 800 wickets, whilst Ajmal has became just as lethal as Murli if not more.

Jairam, You're totally within your right to have reservations on Ajmal's action. But the only way to disprove it is scientifically. The ICC has made their argument scientifically and to counter-prove one would require a good enough scientific proof. The last image you posted, unfortunately, doesn't prove enough. It's the angle of the arm at the time of delivery that matters. If that angle is within 15 degrees, it's OK else not. As far as action reports go, even the match referee or opposition team can lodge a complaint against a particular player's bowling action and ICC will take cognizance of it. Btw, This thread isn't about this topic anyway.

[rkt.india]

Lets stay clear of personal remarks. You may be at the receiving end. I will ignore this as of now. You can be called a 'chucker' if you bent your elbow 15 degrees while bowl. Ajmal and all international bowlers are within the 15 degree limit. If not, they wouldn't be allowed to bowl. This 15 degree bowling limit is a HARD RULE, irrespective whether you have a bent arm or bent elbow. You can't "bowl" with a 60 degree arm, you can "start" with a 60 degree arm. While bowling, you should bowl with a 15 degree arm limit PERIOD. In technical terms, it's the degree of "elbow extension" which matters when you bowl not the degree of "elbow abduction". The degree of "elbow abduction" for Ajmal is 25 degrees, there's no limit on it. The degree of "elbow extension" is limited to 15 degrees. No international bowler, in the current format, can bend beyond it. Simple. Ajmal's "elbow extension" is within 15 degrees and hence he's allowed to bowl.

But you cannot check it in a match whether a bowler is going over 15 degree or not. They certainly. If some one bend 10-15 degree then it is very much possible that he will go more than 15 degree too, after all he does not first measure his arm before bowling whether it is 15 degree or more and then bowl. He just bowls whatever he wants does not see if it is 15 or over.

[Crookbond]

But you cannot check it in a match whether a bowler is going over 15 degree or not. They certainly. If some one bend 10-15 degree then it is very much possible that he will go more than 15 degree too' date= after all he does not first measure his arm before bowling whether it is 15 degree or more and then bowl. He just bowls whatever he wants does not see if it is 15 or over.

Perfect but you can't say the other way round too viz. an umpire can't say if a bowler is bowling with lesser than 15 degrees with surety. What do we do then?

[jairamesh]

Perfect but you can't say the other way round too viz. an umpire can't say if a bowler is bowling with lesser than 15 degrees with surety. What do we do then?

Well, there is TV and DRS market to exploit it then! The current portable system is too intrusive for players, i.e. sticking patches of accelerometers/sensors around the body.

[rkt.india]

Perfect but you can't say the other way round too viz. an umpire can't say if a bowler is bowling with lesser than 15 degrees with surety. What do we do then?

lets not have any checks for spinners and give them the Leeway.:giggle:

[Crookbond]

Well, there is TV and DRS market to exploit it then!

:agree: Do you want to be the next Steve Jobs of sport? Good place to start.

[Ultimate_Game]

i think unlike murli or ajmal he can straighten his arm' date=' those two guys have defect in their arm which doesnt allow them to straighten it, murli is via birth and ajmal via an accident has the defect.now i think somebody needs to push this guy downstairs or something.[/quote'] A rule is a rule (15 degrees). You either conform to it or not. "Defects", "genetic abnormalities" or "hyperextended elbows" are just that - excuses. This is international sport we are talking about, not some village match where anything goes. I repeat if likes of Murali, Ajmal and Akhtar have been given a free reign so far, then Parmar needs to be given a fair shot as well. Pity our board brings our promising youngster down while fighting for players from other teams just to get some ICC votes. And it's not as if those teams are thankful in the least - they are the ones who b***h, moan, whinge and rail against BCCI & India at the drop of a hat.

[Ultimate_Game]

Are our pace bowlers utilizing this? We already had Amit Singh and Kamran Khan banned during the IPL without proof on how much they flexed. Also how many must have got stopped through junior, club, academies and first class set-ups by umpires without a proper biomechanical test? Can't help but think the likes of Brett Lee, Tait, Akthar, or Malinga would never make it through an India cricket set-up from youth to first class because at some stage they will be banned for chucking.

Unfortunately true. Our own board is our worst enemy. Now I am beginning to see why our bowling lineup resembles an associate XIs. Coz all our promising/mystery bowlers never got past BCCI's rules of "illegal" bowling action even though at intl level there's no such thing and everything goes. BCCI needs to wake up soon as we run the risk of becoming minnows while every other team is going the chucking - oops "15 degree rule", "hyperextension", "deformity" or "genetic defect" way. BCCI needs to understand that the gap between intl teams is extremely small and there's no way we can be competitive if we have to face chuckers from other teams but our team can have them. So far our batting has bailed us out but for how long? We have lived with this disadvantage for so long and I have no doubts if we had a chucker or two in our team we would have had wins in Aus & SA, maybe one more WC and still be at no. 1 in tests.

[Crookbond]

A rule is a rule (15 degrees). You either conform to it or not. "Defects"' date=' "genetic abnormalities" or "hyperextended elbows" are just that - excuses. This is international sport we are talking about, not some village match where anything goes. I repeat if likes of Murali, Ajmal and Akhtar have been given a free reign so far, then Parmar needs to be given a fair shot as well. Pity our board brings our promising youngster down while fighting for players from other teams just to get some ICC votes. And it's not as if those teams are thankful in the least - they are the ones who b***h, moan, whinge and rail against BCCI & India at the drop of a hat.[/quote'] U_G, I have no problem if you want to teach bowler to bowl with a bent arm - absolutely fine, it's within the rules. I was trying to exactly show the same point that 15 degree is a hard rule. No international bowler bends his elbow more than this limit - defect or no defect - unlike what 'bajrang' was suggesting. I have two questions here - How much was Parmar chucking? It would be great to get to the depths of the matter rather than commenting superficially AND What do we do (in a hypothetical case) if the rules change due to some technology proving otherwise?

[Ultimate_Game]

U_G, I have no problem if you want to teach bowler to bowl with a bent arm - absolutely fine, it's within the rules. I was trying to exactly show the same point that 15 degree is a hard rule. No international bowler bends his elbow more than this limit - defect or no defect - unlike what 'bajrang' was suggesting. I have two questions here - How much was Parmar chucking? It would be great to get to the depths of the matter rather than commenting superficially AND What do we do (in a hypothetical case) if the rules change due to some technology proving otherwise?

To me Parmar was no worse than Murali or Ajmal but the disappointing part was that BCCI intervened and didn't even allow him to go the "laborotary test" way to show he doesn't chuck. I doubt any bowler will ever be deemed to be throwing if Murali & Ajmal haven't been found to be chucking. Parmar should have been sent to the same lab/institute for tests.

[Crookbond]

To me Parmar was no worse than Murali or Ajmal but the disappointing part was that BCCI intervened and didn't even allow him to go the "laborotary test" way to show he doesn't chuck. I doubt any bowler will ever be deemed to be throwing if Murali & Ajmal haven't been found to be chucking. Parmar should have been sent to the same lab/institute for tests.

I would kind-of have to agree with you there. If the BCCI is indeed planning to take a moral high ground, I think there are other avenues to do so. TBH, I feel the BCCI has done this to wash their hands off the matter. Btw, chucking has been a big problem in Indian domestic cricket for the past decade or so. The issue here is that umpires report a bowler in a game. The BCCI goes "only" by the umpire report. I think chucking still needs to be handled on a case by case basis.

[Ultimate_Game]

I would kind-of have to agree with you there. If the BCCI is indeed planning to take a moral high ground' date=' I think there are other avenues to do so. TBH, [b']I feel the BCCI has done this to wash their hands off the matter. Btw, chucking has been a big problem in Indian domestic cricket for the past decade or so. The issue here is that umpires report a bowler in a game. The BCCI goes "only" by the umpire report. I think chucking still needs to be handled on a case by case basis.

This is exactly what I think and what bothers me. Backing Parmar wouldn't have done anything for BCCI - no extra votes at the ICC voting table and nothing in return revenue-wise. BCCI has become solely a business entity and doesn't care about the game or players per se. It's all about money and power. Backing Parmar would have cost them money as they would have had to send him to Aus, get the tests etc. Why would they spend that much money when they in fact cancelled the A tours last year just to save money/expenses?

[Crookbond]

lets not have any checks for spinners and give them the Leeway.:giggle:

Lab tests are the only way to prove and it is happening. So, lets agree with the gold standard and that is that. I and you may disagree but lab tests in the current scenario are the only way to ascertain a chucker. Definitely not the naked eye.

[Ultimate_Game]

I would play any spinner/bowler with good stats in intl matches. Let ICC report them and get them tested. I am sure BCCI can back the players then. We shouldn't be nipping our youngsters in the bud ourselves.

[Crookbond]

I would play any spinner/bowler with good stats in intl matches. Let ICC report them and get them tested. I am sure BCCI can back the players then. We shouldn't be nipping our youngsters in the bud ourselves.

Provided they are under 15 degree limits, we should give these guys our full support definitely. No two words about it. U_G, What about my second question?

[Ultimate_Game]

Provided they are under 15 degree limits, we should give these guys our full support definitely. No two words about it. U_G, What about my second question?

I wouldn't worry too much about the technology to determine chuckers. We haven't been able to agree on much simpler technology just to determine catches/edges and LBW (DRS) so the technology to determine whether a bowler is chucking which will involve 3 dimensional modeling is far too away - at least 15 years or so. We can't just wait for that technology to arrive and concede such an enormous advantage for so long. I say get the chuckers/mystery bowlers in ASAP and put the onus on ICC to prove: i) The bowlers chuck, and ii) To justify why these youngsters chuck and not Murali/Ajmal/Akhtar.

[jairamesh]

This is the sad bit about this Parmar and BCCI's presumed cost cutting policy. Parmar was never sent for a test to that lab in Australia. BCCI's decision to ban Parmar and request he amend his action was solely based on a report from Australia along with umpires' reports and videos of his action. But Parmar never went to that specialist lab in Australia like Murli, Ajmal, Tait, Lee, Bhajji, etc to validate his action. BCCI probably took the decision based on "just another inconsequential domestic player, hence we will wait for someone who is less of a risk". Really to see the likes Parmar and Kamran Khan left in the lurch is rather sad. Remember BCCI don't even have specialist team of their own to judge a player's action and decide whether to clear him or not, it's all based on umpires' and opposition players' verdicts.

[bajrang]

Lets stay clear of personal remarks. You may be at the receiving end. I will ignore this as of now. You can be called a 'chucker' if you bent your elbow 15 degrees while bowl. Ajmal and all international bowlers are within the 15 degree limit. If not, they wouldn't be allowed to bowl. This 15 degree bowling limit is a HARD RULE, irrespective whether you have a bent arm or bent elbow. You can't "bowl" with a 60 degree arm, you can "start" with a 60 degree arm. While bowling, you should bowl with a 15 degree arm limit PERIOD. In technical terms, it's the degree of "elbow extension" which matters when you bowl not the degree of "elbow abduction". The degree of "elbow abduction" for Ajmal is 25 degrees, there's no limit on it. The degree of "elbow extension" is limited to 15 degrees. No international bowler, in the current format, can bend beyond it. Simple. Ajmal's "elbow extension" is within 15 degrees and hence he's allowed to bowl.

NO!! its not. read the article again, its 15 degree

In an interview on the ICC website, Richardson added: "In Saeed Ajmal's case he has a 15-degree angle of elbow abduction."

http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan-v-england-2012/content/story/552462.html and i think u deserve those personal remark as u put no effort behind what u write.

[Ultimate_Game]

This is the sad bit about this Parmar and BCCI's presumed cost cutting policy. Parmar was never sent for a test to that lab in Australia. BCCI's decision to ban Parmar and request he amend his action was solely based on a report from Australia along with umpires' reports and videos of his action. But Parmar never went to that specialist lab in Australia like Murli, Ajmal, Tait, Lee, Bhajji, etc to validate his action. BCCI probably took the decision based on "just another inconsequential domestic player, hence we will wait for someone who is less of a risk". Really to see the likes Parmar and Kamran Khan left in the lurch is rather sad. Remember BCCI don't even have specialist team of their own to judge a player's action and decide whether to clear him or not, it's all based on umpires' and opposition players' verdicts.

Totally agree and it's no wonder that BCCi is struggling to find decent bowlers to such an extent that they have to post ads in newspapers like despos. Serves them right but eventually it's the youngsters (cricketers) and Indian fans who suffer, not the suits in BCCI who are millionaires many times over and don't give a shyte to players, fans or the team.

[Crookbond]

NO!! its not. read the article again, its 15 degree http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan-v-england-2012/content/story/552462.html and i think u deserve those personal remark as u put no effort behind what u write.

Since, you're playing hide-and-seek here's a snip from the same link -

The ICC's level of tolerance of 15 degrees relates to the degree of elbow extension that is permitted in the bowling action, ie. the amount by which the arm is straightening," Pakistan team manager Naveed Akram Cheema said. "Previous tests conducted on the action of Saeed Ajmal show that the degree of elbow extension is well within ICC's tolerance levels." "Saeed Ajmal was referring to the angle of elbow abduction, ie. the angle of the upper arm to the forearm and not the degree of elbow extension. This angle is approximately 23 degrees in Saeed's case.

This is consistent with what I said -

In technical terms, it's the degree of "elbow extension" which matters when you bowl not the degree of "elbow abduction". The degree of "elbow abduction" for Ajmal is 25 degrees, there's no limit on it. The degree of "elbow extension" is limited to 15 degrees. No international bowler, in the current format, can bend beyond it. Simple. Ajmal's "elbow extension" is within 15 degrees and hence he's allowed to bowl.

Now, go back read the complete article and check the context of ICC's statement and cry out loud. Let me see what you can come up with.

and i think u deserve those personal remark as u put no effort behind what u write.

Listen mate, you can think whatever you want to but make sure you check your fingers before typing it on a public forum. You're no one to judge what effort I put or not. I am once again taking the moral ground here and discarding your personal remark. It may not happen henceforth. It's the second time I am putting forth a polite request, there may not be a third tiime.