kumble_rocks Posted August 8, 2007 Posted August 8, 2007 Its got nothing to do with morals ( but with consequences ).... and the moral part was answered in post # 39 ... i.e Thackeray was never accused of having any .... even by mistake. Its your own imagination. But since this topic relates to communal riots and Gandhi was very famous for his actions in riots I bought him up ... Fair ? Now shall I make a list of questions that you never answered ? :haha: Let's do this one more time and then I will call it a day , For the record , in your moral compass are Gandhi and Thackerey equal ?
kumble_rocks Posted August 8, 2007 Posted August 8, 2007 Now shall I make a list of questions that you never answered ? :haha: And If I make my list , believe me it will surely open up the Pandora's Box ! :haha:
Lurker Posted August 8, 2007 Posted August 8, 2007 Fascinating article and very pertinent to Shrikishna report, quite unlike right wingers like BB who would obviously not say anything on the subject but hogwash with Gandhi.... The conspiracy of silence has followed the conspiracy of terror. There is a certain chilling predictability about the list of convicts, a dreadful Orwellian litany of sameness. After a mammoth 14 years of trial and the dramatic sentencing of Sanjay Dutt, the Bombay Blasts case of 1993, is closed. Of 123 accused, 100 have been sentenced. 12 have been given death. 20 have been given life terms, 15 of them with Rigorous Imprisonment. What are the names of those who will die? Among others, Memon. Turk. Tarani. Shaikh. Mukadam. Ghansar. Malik. Pawle. And Khan. What are the names of those who will serve life terms with RI? Among others, Shaikh. Khairulla. Qureshi. Memon. Rehman. And Kadar. In the 1998 Coimbatore blast verdict this week, the main accused Abdul Nazar Madani has been acquitted, but SA Basha, founder of al-Umma has been found guilty, along with 157 others. Muslim after Muslim has stepped up to be convicted and sentenced. Soon India's jails will be choc-a-block with Muslims. The conspiracy that bombed Mumbai in 1993 and took 257 lives was demonic and destroyed lives. But after the conspiracy of terror, has come a surreal conspiracy of silence. There is a deathly quiet, a floating shroud of bemused acceptance. There is not a shred of sympathy, no trace of introspection, no question of benefit of doubt given to any of the accused in the court of public opinion. To voice any doubts about the long delayed trial is considered "anti-national" "unpatriotic" or "pseudo secular". Yet senior lawyers have publicly cast doubt on how the blast case is a shame on the judiciary. How can justice can be thoroughly done through the mountains of documentation, the sheer bulk of facts and contradictions, the long delayed trial and lapses in human memory that must have come faced poor Justice PD Kode. A senior counsel has called the case a "mistrial" and a case of "playing to the gallery". Apart from the high voltage media debate around Sanjay Dutt, among the larger public, there is only silence. The guilty are Muslims, after all. They killed innocent people, they've been brought to justice and that's the end of that. A softly floating cloud engulfs us in its comforting yet toxic fumes. Is it a phantom? A phantom that is lulling Indian society into a deadly illness of certainty. A society that does not ask questions of itself, a society that does not take itself to task, but wallows in convenient "truths", is a society doomed to death. Hindus and Muslims whisper among themselves in their own ghettos. The cross-religion and cross-community debate is dead or dying. Judge PD Kode is justifiably hailed as a tough and idealistic judge and his own fairness is not in doubt. The prosecution of Special Public prosecutor Ujwal Nikam has been determined. Yet a case where far too many cases were bunched up together, where the sheer volume of paperwork was so huge, isn't it expecting too much of a single human being to be perfectly conversant with each case? In the prevailing silence, a few voices have sounded. As Muslim after Muslim has walked to his death, as "terrorist" after "terrorist" has been taken away for life, what about the Hindu mobs and Hindu police officers who were named and indicted by the Justice Srikrishna Commission that inquired into the bloodcurdling 1992-93 riots of Mumbai in which 900 died? That horrifying report, indicts 31 "trigger happy" policemen: Among others, the names here are sub inspector Vasant Madhukar More, police inspectors Patankar and Wahule, Jt Commissioner of Police RD Tyagi, not to mention political names like Gopinath Munde, Madhukar Sarpotdar and Ram Naik of the BJP all accused to inciting mobs. Aren't riots too not an act of terror? A terrorist is defined as one who kills innocent civilians for a political purpose. Thus, those rioters who killed for their political agenda, aren't those Hindu rioters too not "terrorists" and shouldn't't they too face the same law as Muslim "terrorists?" Lets try and break the conspiracy of silence a little. Rubina Memon is not a celebrity and so the media is not very interested in her. Rubina is the 39-year-old wife of Tiger's older brother Sulaiman Memon has been given rigorous imprisonment for life. Rubina was the woman in the brown burqa who we all saw on television. Rubina has been found guilty under Tada because it was the van registered under her name that was used to carry arms and ammunition for the blasts. She also allowed her house to be used for "terror activities" and had arranged funds from her bank account for the conspirators. But is there any proof that Rubina actually bought the car that was registered in her name? Did she use the car? Did she actually know what her husband's brothers were planning to do? Or was it kept a secret from her, as men all over India, keep important secrets from their wives and sisters in law? If Afsan Guru, wife of Shaukat Husain Guru, could be acquitted in the parliament attack case because there was no proof she knew her house was being used for "terror activities", can the same lack of knowledge not have been possible for Rubina? Assuming, she did know, is there proof that Rubina played an active role in the blasts? Or was she the typical uneducated Muslim woman in a household who did what her men folk asked her to do, even allowing a car to be registered in her name so that their husband could escape tax? For her crimes, Rubina will serve a life term with rigorous imprisonment while her teenage children seek permission to visit their mother in jail. Tragically, Justice may not have still been done to Rubina Memon. Zebunissa Qazi is 60 years old and also held guilty under Tada of abetting terrorist acts. She's been given five years of rigorous imprisonment. What did she do? She says some boys handed her a bag and told her to keep it in her garage. She did not know what was inside the bag. Are Rubina Memon and Zebunissa Qazi terrorists? Dr Mohammad Haneef, detained for 27 days in Australia is on the other side too. On the other side, distant, far away from Indian mainstream society, from muted civil society groups, distant from the voices of the intelligentsia, bludgeoned into silence by the spectre and reality of the "Islamist terrorist." What factors should have exercised the Indian conscience about Dr Haneef? That it is not a crime to be related to those who are terrorists, only a conspiracy is a crime. That lending a SIM card is not a criminal offence. That a one way ticket is not a criminal offence. That a beard is not a criminal offence. Australian civil society took its government on head on about Haneef. Indian civil society turned its back on haneef, instead vilifying the prime minister when he made the mistake of confessing he had had a sleepless night about Haneef's parents. There is suddenly no doubt left in the minds of the majority of Indian society. Political tokenism of three Muslim Vice-presidential candidates sits alongside a covert hidden communalism that does not express itself in riots but in quiet determined segregation. The burqa-clad or lungi-clad figures march into the Tada court, yet apart from the publicity circus around celebrity Sanjay Dutt, we are incurious about the individuals behind the burqas and the lungis. The little stories of mothers and brothers are of no interest. The toxic cloud of silence drifts ever closer, lulling us into a dreamless sleep. http://www.ibnlive.com/blogs/sagarikaghose/223/2220/shshshmuslim.html xxx
Lurker Posted August 8, 2007 Posted August 8, 2007 Dont care what you label me Lurks ... I can similarly come up with Labels ... wont take more than a minute ... but I wont go that way ... But feel free to highlight the "Hogwash" and how you arrived at that conclusion. It is rather simple. Talk of Gandhi in an unrelated thread is hogwash to me. If you are in a thread that deals with Srikishna report you better be able to talk about it. Do yourself a favour, reread this entire thread and see if you find any other poster, other than you, who has talked of anything but Srikrishna report. If you can't find any you know what label you need to give to yourself. xxx
Lurker Posted August 8, 2007 Posted August 8, 2007 Read post # 47 on why I brought in Gandhi ... Doesnt cut it. Your first entry in this thread is post#18. Completely irrelevant to topic at hand. Your second entry is at post#37. Again completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. It only shows you in poor spirit that to defend Thackeray you had to character assasinate Gandhi. Then again you subsequently went so on to suggest Miandad is only guilty by "association", again to defend Bal Thackeray(surprise suprise!) Unless you read from right to left, there is no reason why your response should be considered from post 41 when you resorted to hogwash as early as post#18. By the way may I ask in a thread about Srikrishna report, and a thread in which you have made about 5 post, how many posts, nay words have you typed in regards to the report itself? xxx
Lurker Posted August 9, 2007 Posted August 9, 2007 ^^ BB, since you are self-proclaimed "I like to get to bottom of the facts" and also live to delve in stats here are some stats you may enjoy. Your number of post thus far in this thread: 13 Number of words you have used/typed: 704 Number of characters used: 3683 Number of words/character/post you have used for the topic: ZERO One word - hogwash. xxx
kumble_rocks Posted August 9, 2007 Posted August 9, 2007 Bring it on KR ... I got no problems with icky questions ... as long as you can stand the cross-questioning ... and answer my share of questions .. Fair ? If so askaway to your hearts content ... With all due respect , what's the point. Debating you has become an exercise in Pedantry and Word play and not to mention the mental gymnastics that you indulge in . We will be discussing about point A and you will talk about points B through Z. Forget this thread, even on the 9-11 thread, we started talking about Iraq and USA and you started talking about everything else.
kumble_rocks Posted August 9, 2007 Posted August 9, 2007 Thats pretty rich comming from someone who never follows up on questions asked but feels its your right to keep asking questions to me.... Sorry it needs to cut both ways... What was the question that I didnt answer on that thread ? And the reason why I bought up other things on that thread is because of your penchant for hitting the exit when things get complicated ... and your pestering for "Straight Answers" while never bothering to extend the same courtesy to others. And I have told you many times before that these topics are quite complicated and most often there is no way one can discuss them in a day or even a week and there is bound to be digresssions .... if you are so picky about such digressions please dont respond. And as for this thread I stand by my stance ... whatever Iam talking is in relation to the OP i.e Riots. If you want to ONLY TALK about that particular report please go ahead.... I am not interested in that. Other wise as I said I got plenty of patience to talk to you or anybody as long as its a mature and mutually respectfull discussion totally devoid of this silly emotions. Has it occurred to you that many a times , the discussion when extended beyond the scope of topic at hand simply digresses to religious bashing and unwarranted name calling and personal abuse . One one hand you want to discuss the whole enchilada and on the other hand you guys (Moderators) want us to refrain from discussing religious topics. Sorry , can't cut it both ways. If you want answers , you should be willing to change the forum rules which I know you can't. Otherwise , prudence tells me stick to topic at hand which you fail to do. Even on this thread , inspite of repeated cajoling , you failed to accuse Thackerey of any wrong doings. And instead of sticking to topic at hand , you started bringing Gandhi as if he was responsible for communal rights.
Ram Posted August 9, 2007 Posted August 9, 2007 Whats up with BB and KR off late ? They have been going for each other's head for the last 2-3 weeks now. :D Take a break guys.. How about a mutual moratorium on debating each other for next 2 weeks so that things cool down ?
King Posted August 9, 2007 Posted August 9, 2007 Despite all this I can see the funny side of things :haha: Sorry Bheem and KR to take your debates lightly but cannot hold my laughter on couple of quotes : "Debating you has become an exercise in Pedantry and Word play and not to mention the mental gymnastics that you indulge in . We will be discussing about point A and you will talk about points B through Z" :haha: "and your pestering for "Straight Answers" while never bothering to extend the same courtesy to others" :haha: If you want to ONLY TALK about that particular report please go ahead.... I am not interested in that I thought the topic was created to discuss that report :D BTW no malice intended folks, just saw the funny side of it. These debates I have figured out is like a maze, there is an entrance but no direction towards exit. The one that exits first is sane and the one that continues to search for exit makes the maze his world. I can count at least 10 such people living in this maze :haha: BTW I have only stepped one of my foot inside this maze and the other outside. I'm not willing to enter this maze forever, cya folks.:D
Ram Posted August 9, 2007 Posted August 9, 2007 :hysterical: at Ravi for his post.... The thing is , both BB and KR have too much pedigree to indulge in such verbal brickbats, which is why it is surprising this has gone for as long as it has..
kumble_rocks Posted August 9, 2007 Posted August 9, 2007 Despite all this I can see the funny side of things :haha: Sorry Bheem and KR to take your debates lightly but cannot hold my laughter on couple of quotes : I thought the topic was created to discuss that report :D :hysterical::hysterical: Exactly my point !:regular_smile:
kumble_rocks Posted August 9, 2007 Posted August 9, 2007 :hysterical: at Ravi for his post.... The thing is , both BB and KR have too much pedigree to indulge in such verbal brickbats, which is why it is surprising this has gone for as long as it has.. BB cajoled me into this by repeatedly asking me to be frank and forthright about my views which nowadays tend to be his counter view now that he does not debate CC:regular_smile: But , he is a good guy and their will be no hard feelings outside these threads. :regular_smile:
Guest dada_rocks Posted August 9, 2007 Posted August 9, 2007 Hey Thackerey and his ilk waited for 40 long years after independence before taking things in their hands.. My stand is clear thackrey is not evil it's those folks who do terror by nature are evil.. Thackrey at worst is one who might play fire with fire but will never start a fire. I say hang him if court finds him guilty but withut any court trial whenever issue of bombay riot comes up u all go tonkers and bell over his name totally ignoring everything else now that I have problem with. To me this looks like classic mullah line of defence: Where they keep cornering you till you snap and when u do snap they will declare you terrorist forgetting their own deeds whihc drove u to that stage, not buying this crap..
kumble_rocks Posted August 9, 2007 Posted August 9, 2007 Do you have a "NOT Gate" in your eyes or wherever ... you know the one that we learn in basic electronics that reverses the input ... ? :D and Isnt that Report about Riots ? And yes the report is about Mumbai Riots not Gujarat or Calcutta or any other riot. So , stick to topic at hand , if you can.
kumble_rocks Posted August 9, 2007 Posted August 9, 2007 So you do have a not gate then ?:haha: In case you missed , check this out by Ravi - :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: Despite all this I can see the funny side of things :haha: Sorry Bheem and KR to take your debates lightly but cannot hold my laughter on couple of quotes : I thought the topic was created to discuss that report :D
kumble_rocks Posted August 9, 2007 Posted August 9, 2007 In case you missed your own posts .... asking me about Thackeray ... say about 3 times .... and then proclaiming me to be pedantic :giggle: Why did I ask about Thackerey three times ? ... Because self proclaimed straight shooter always throws crooked missives.:yay:
Guest dada_rocks Posted August 9, 2007 Posted August 9, 2007 You pedantics.. One might say it's about mumbai riot so stick to the topic where from thackerey comes in picture he was not seen anywhere with arms in tow killing anyone ...people find him guilty because most probably participants were from his party but that is not direct involvement. So if u can indulge in little generalisation to rope in thackrey then why generalisation of communal-riot can't be roped in.. just playing pedantics word game..:cantstop:
Lurker Posted August 9, 2007 Posted August 9, 2007 You pedantics.. One might say it's about mumbai riot so stick to the topic where from thackerey comes in picture he was not seen anywhere with arms in tow killing anyone ...people find him guilty because most probably participants were from his party but that is not direct involvement. So if u can indulge in little generalisation to rope in thackrey then why generalisation of communal-riot can't be roped in.. just playing pedantics word game..:cantstop: Issi liye kahta hoon miyaan ke read the report before you open your mouth :sad_smile: The events which took place between the period 12th December 1992 and l5th January 1993 indicate that there were attacks going on against the Muslims and their properties in different areas; there were also several stabbing incidents carried out by professional criminals in different areas of the city, with the intention of whipping up communal frenzy, in which the majority of the victims happened to be Hindus (two of the notorious Muslim criminals Salim Rampuri and Feroz Kokani were subsequently identified to be behind the Hindu stabbings); the communal passions of the Hindus were aroused to fever pitch by the inciting writings in print media, particularly Saamna and Navaakal which gave exaggerated accounts of the Mathadi murders and the Radhabai Chawl incident; rumours were floated that there were imminent attacks by Muslims using sophisticated arms. These factors impelled some of the irresponsible and hot–headed Hindu elements to take to violence. From 8th January 1993 at least there is no doubt that the Shiv Sena and Shiv Sainiks took the lead in organizing attacks on Muslims and their properties under the guidance of several leaders of the Shiv Sena from the level of Shakha Pramukh to the Shiv Sena Pramukh Bal Thackeray who, like a veteran General, commanded his loyal Shiv Sainiks to retaliate by organised attacks against Muslims. The communal violence and rioting triggered off by the Shiv Sena was hijacked by local criminal elements who saw in it an opportunity to make quick gains. By the time the Shiv Sena realized that enough had been done by way of "retaliation", the violence and rioting was beyond the control of its leaders who had to issue an appeal to put an end to it. http://www.sabrang.com/srikrish/vol1.htm So saar you were saying? :deal:
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