bangladeshifan Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 There seem to be so many apologists in every other religion apart from the one we are discussing here.....I am not sterotyping anyone or saying the entire religion is bad...it could only be 10% of 5% of the whole community that partakes in such stuff....Hell the Gujrat rioters were not even 0.5% of the total Hindu populace but we see millions and millions of apologists popping up every day.... No matter how secular or forwad thinking the remaining 90%-95% are...I have never ever heard one statement with regards to understanding the problem. that lies within..It's always the defensive argument and the victim card.. There is no justification for violence but when you see a problem you need to say it out go read the thread in bangla forum u will get the picture. how many muslims r here in this site that u r drawing a conclusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triam Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 go read the thread in bangla forum u will get the picture. how many muslims r here in this site that u r drawing a conclusion? bd even in your first post you said it is wrong but one country is attacking etc, if there is a but it is a justification. There should not be any justifications for these type of things and there should be unequivocal condemnation for these type of acts. wouldnt you agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniac Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 go read the thread in bangla forum u will get the picture. how many muslims r here in this site that u r drawing a conclusion? You really think I measure everything by what happens or what people say on ICF? You guys might have an amazing secular discussion on the bangla forum...good for you... But how many statements have been made by people who matter from islam that have ever condemned an act of violence....I am not saying one or two so called seculars and forward thinkers like you or some of my friends who follow the religion but...say for eg; if an act of violence happens in India-You see everyone from the Prime Minister to a low-life like Mahesh Bhatt wanting to give their 2 cents...Forget about leaders of these countries,I have never seen even some random prince from a middle east condemn any acts in the past...all that we hear are speeches of victimisation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Technically Jesus was killed by a certain community to which he belonged to and the way violence and torture was portrayed should say a lot.....To top it all the movie was directed by Mel Gibson Not technically - Jesus indeed was a jew and was killed by the jews for many reasons minus race. It was a jewish custom to release one prisoner on the day Jesus was convicted. FWIW another Jesus (Jesus of Barabbas) was released in return of Jesus(of Nazareth). The portrayal of violence was verbatim the Bible. Sorry, I fail to see the anti-Semitic angle here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Merlyn Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 There are two very serious points that must not get lost on anyone in the shadow of the other: 1. Senseless rioting and killing innocent people never achieves anything. Nothing at all. It must not be allowed at any cost whatsoever. 2. People should not be allowed to make such idiotic films on the name of freedom of speech. Making fun of or humiliating those you dislike in an insensitive way is not a civilized way of expressing an opinion or making a point. If someone in the society wishes to express anti-religious views, they should do so in a more civilized manner. What is idoitic?More than 4 billion people around the world would not be affected or offended by this film.It is no one's job to keep Muslims happy(may be Indian political parties but none else).They dont like the film,fine go have peaceful protests,sue in a court,etc etc.But no,they will kill people damage property and then they will say ohh,we are discriminated,there is Islamophobia.Hell yeah there is phobia if nut heads behave like this. secondly,is the prophet of a religion so brittle that his image will be tarnished by a little known film? Thirdly,what these people are doing in the name of Islam,is that even allowed in Islam? Sorry I can not agree to that. You have to realize DK, that this whole notion comes down to feelings being hurt of only one religion only, namely Muslims. And yes I am pretty darn sure that the man who created/made this movie did so with an axe to grind namely show Islam and Prophet Mohammed in a bad light. But why are Muslims so insecure that some no-name chap whose movie was literally seen by nobody, much less celebrated as a masterpiece, ensured such a response that it ended up killing a dozen or two around the world?? This is serious. If there trivial, speaking from my vantage point, matters are enough to get people killed what happens when we have a serious, lot more controversial topics?? Pray then we can simply expect to have a qayamat on hand. Muslims are intolerant,for reasons best know to them.I mean i havent seen another religious group which behaves like this.Being passionate and an ardent follower of your religion is one thing,being nut job extremists is another.May be it will become more tolerant as it matures.All religions went through similar phases in its history. Let me ask a question from the people who are against this movie and free speech. How come religious people can stop gays from getting married, something which doesnt affect life of religious people but still they have a right to not only interfere but also limit what relationship same sex couple can have. So where does the freedom and free speech start and end ? These 2 issues dont seem related but if you try to understand my point then you'll realize that if you are part of the bunch of people who believe in the same non-existent thing then you can change rules for all, if you dont then you cant even get the rules changed for yourself. So who gives the right to religious people to riot or even complain when other have no voice and even their opinion isnt valued. Where is the limit and how do we define it ? I or for anyone else has the right to question anything.In USA you can even burn the US flag and protest.Thats freedom of speech they have allowed to their people.If some non islamic person doesnt respect the prophet what do you do?Kill him?Thats the way things are going these days for few muslims. Sorry DK, have to disagree there. The filmmaker is not the cause of these riots. Other religions are routinely made fun of in the US, both in a satirical and a harsh manner. They have consistently defended the freedom of speech regardless of who is being targeted. If Muslims cannot take criticism of their religion, it is entirely their problem. The world doesnt owe anything to Islam or any other religion for that matter that it should consider their symbols sacred. People are free to protest peacefully but the moment they break the law, they should be arrested and punished accordingly. Totally agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 You really think I measure everything by what happens or what people say on ICF? You guys might have an amazing secular discussion on the bangla forum...good for you... But how many statements have been made by people who matter from islam that have ever condemned an act of violence....I am not saying one or two so called seculars and forward thinkers like you or some of my friends who follow the religion but...say for eg; if an act of violence happens in India-You see everyone from the Prime Minister to a low-life like Mahesh Bhatt wanting to give their 2 cents...Forget about leaders of these countries,I have never seen even some random prince from a middle east condemn any acts in the past...all that we hear are speeches of victimisation We need to be careful in our words both in praise & criticism. Check out one of the posts on this thread [1]. [1] http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=2110365&postcount=82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangladeshifan Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 You really think I measure everything by what happens or what people say on ICF? You guys might have an amazing secular discussion on the bangla forum...good for you... But how many statements have been made by people who matter from islam that have ever condemned an act of violence....I am not saying one or two so called seculars and forward thinkers like you or some of my friends who follow the religion but...say for eg; if an act of violence happens in India-You see everyone from the Prime Minister to a low-life like Mahesh Bhatt wanting to give their 2 cents...Forget about leaders of these countries,I have never seen even some random prince from a middle east condemn any acts in the past...all that we hear are speeches of victimisation u dont need to go anywhere just scroll up a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniac Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Not technically - Jesus indeed was a jew and was killed by the jews for many reasons minus race. It was a jewish custom to release one prisoner on the day Jesus was convicted. FWIW another Jesus (Jesus of Barabbas) was released in return of Jesus of Nazareth. The portrayal of violence was verbatim the Bible. Sorry' date=' I fail to see the anti-Semitic angle here.[/quote'] I was just sorrounded by 3 of them just now...they were having a convo right next to my desk...I was giving an impression I am typing an e-mail didn't want to type Jew or Jewish and grab their attention if they managed to take a glance... Lol Anyways back to topic....It might have been honest to the bible but the way the scences of torture where being portrayed and depicted was clearly with an intent to invoke an emotion from the viewer....I mean I have seen other movies/plays depicting Jesus's crucifixion in the past but the way this was portrayed was something else... I mean for eg;Jalianwala Bagh massacre-It is a historical fact that has been shown in many movies but doesn't it depend on how graphically it is portrayed for you to build in a rage? I mean for you and me it could be a temporary thing and then we brush it off as just another movie but just like the topic we are discussing,there are a lot of nuts out there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 I was just sorrounded by 3 of them just now...they were having a convo right next to my desk...I was giving an impression I am typing an e-mail didn't want to type Jew or Jewish and grab their attention if they managed to take a glance... Lol Anyways back to topic....It might have been honest to the bible but the way the scences of torture where being portrayed and depicted was clearly with an intent to invoke an emotion from the viewer....I mean I have seen other movies/plays depicting Jesus's crucifixion in the past but the way this was portrayed was something else... I mean for eg;Jalianwala Bagh massacre-It is a historical fact that has been shown in many movies but doesn't it depend on how graphically it is portrayed for you to build in a rage? I mean for you and me it could be a temporary thing and then we brush it off as just another movie but just like the topic we are discussing,there are a lot of nuts out there See, I hate comparisons - I really do, it helps trivialize the argument both ways for me and you. I like to sandbox issues and look at them for their specific properties. Other issues which may look similar to the superficial eye may not be similar in properties. So NO I am not going to compare Jesus crucifixion with the Jallinawallah Baagh massacre to start a new series of discussions. Mel Gibson would not waste 20 years of his life to make a movie to incite a section of the society (which was based on facts). I am not sure how familiar you are with Christianity but thanks to my upbringing I am a little bit. I can assure you that even kids at the age of 10 are repeatedly stressed about how deep the suffering & pain was of Jesus when he was crucified. If the pain & suffering are so important/crucial, I doubt any movie based on the line of events should miss that part - Mel Gibson or whoever. If I'm not wrong, the movie received appraise even from the church - surely Mel must have done something right in there. Some people wanted to create an issue out of it and did. As far as I'm concerned it's the closest depiction to the Bible I have ever read, heard or seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniac Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 u dont need to go anywhere just scroll up a bit. We need to be careful in our words both in praise & criticism. Check out one of the posts on this thread [1]. [1] http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=2110365&postcount=82 See, I hate comparisons - I really do, it helps trivialize the argument both ways for me and you. I like to sandbox issues and look at them for their specific properties. Other issues which may look similar to the superficial eye may not be similar in properties. So NO I am not going to compare Jesus crucifixion with the Jallinawallah Baagh massacre to start a new series of discussions. Mel Gibson would not waste 20 years of his life to make a movie to incite a section of the society (which was based on facts). I am not sure how familiar you are with Christianity but thanks to my upbringing I am a little bit. I can assure you that even kids at the age of 10 are repeatedly stressed about how deep the suffering & pain was of Jesus when he was crucified. If the pain & suffering are so important/crucial, I doubt any movie based on the line of events should miss that part - Mel Gibson or whoever. If I'm not wrong, the movie received appraise even from the church - surely Mel must have done something right in there. Some people wanted to create an issue out of it and did. As far as I'm concerned it's the closest depiction to the Bible I have ever read, heard or seen. See...You are totally right...I won't bring any anologies to steer the discussion-I don't like arguing :winky: But as far as Jesus's story goes...I will admit I know his story at a very high and basic level but I doub't that the bible focuses this much on the actual torture or punishment Jesus had to endure against the actual sacrifice he made and the message he delivered.... Now if Passion of the christ was just about showing how Jesus Suffered or the torture he was put through for his sacrifice than I would say no matter how accurate the depiction was the focus is steered away from his actual sacrifice and message to the torture and the people who orchestrated it....Hope that makes sense... PS:Mel Gibson has been in a lot of trouble due to some of his Anti-semitic remarks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganeshran Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 What is really puzzling is that every religion is based on an irrational leap of faith when you believe in a creator in the absence of scientific evidence pointing to the same. But some people whose faith is strong enough to withstand the lack of evidence is not strong enough to ignore the criticism of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniac Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 ^^ I don't know why I quoted BD Fan in my prev post but here is my response ... Ok :yay: some dude condemned this act...Dexter thanks for the link and I am glad someone has condemned the act ...seems like an important enough dude....obviously he did throw a little bone out there about why the instigating act was a big deal but BDfan,this question is more applicable to you do you think the video was a big enough deal to bring in the kind of chain reaction it did? Also if we are blaming this on a bunch of idiots spread across the world,what is the common connecting link?Now before the next phase of argument goes into the guys instigating this are doing this to further their own political agenda....Now does this mean islam is a powerful political tool or is it just that there are more idiots(I mean it more in the illeterate and mentally-exploited kind) there? Or Let us go the conspiracy theory route...or is their just more media coverage on this than any other religion,sect or community? Once again I don't want to offend you or my intention is not to make derogatory statements about your religion but for once it would be nice if there was a muslim who came up and said how there is something being done to cleanup all the *** that is taking place ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Khan Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 There are two very serious points that must not get lost on anyone in the shadow of the other: 1. Senseless rioting and killing innocent people never achieves anything. Nothing at all. It must not be allowed at any cost whatsoever. Dont understand how this specific incident of protest from Muslims all arround the world makes senseless to you. Forget about mockery about Prophet Mohammad, the sense is clear that Muslim world reacting towards US supremacy and dare voicing against for their constant suppression over them. Apologists like me poping in millions in Internet and other forms cause they can see a power (threat) on making which tends to be myth called 'Muslim world' trying to draw a line. Although its not realistic and being minority but a lot of radicalists are taking this issue as an oprtunity to show off this so called power of "Muslim world". This is really scarry, cause the first victim of such act will be moderate Muslims in non-Muslim dominated countrise & those are in multi-cultured societies. 2. People should not be allowed to make such idiotic films on the name of freedom of speech. Making fun of or humiliating those you dislike in an insensitive way is not a civilized way of expressing an opinion or making a point. If someone in the society wishes to express anti-religious views, they should do so in a more civilized manner. Sorry DK, have to disagree there. The filmmaker is not the cause of these riots. Other religions are routinely made fun of in the US, both in a satirical and a harsh manner. They have consistently defended the freedom of speech regardless of who is being targeted. If Muslims cannot take criticism of their religion, it is entirely their problem. The world doesnt owe anything to Islam or any other religion for that matter that it should consider their symbols sacred. People are free to protest peacefully but the moment they break the law, they should be arrested and punished accordingly. +1 this again And as far as Muslims are concerned' date=' all I can say is that the movie could not have gotten any better publicity than the Muslims themselves provided, just like the publicity campaigns they unwittingly provided to the Danish cartoons or like the publicity Hindus provided to MF Hussein's controversial paintings. Idiots and haters will always remain in the society and they grow on attention. [b']There is no better way to counter them than to cut off the attention they crave. Cut off the radicalists out of the scenerio, there will be no chance of stupdity then. Leave the garbage where they belongs, have them learning of civility first. Oil your shotgun now, so that it works when it will be needed. Stop this immigrations who are to spread the disease. Make it clear to everyone, what Western world expects from you to be before living there. Its very much understandble that Islam & multculturism never can live together; its already too late to recognise the issue as an issue by most of these multi-cultured Muslim welcoming countries; its time to be pro-active and deal with the problem that is arrising. Oil & water cant be mixed; If you let these oil flow on water, someone will spark fire on it to burn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 See...You are totally right...I won't bring any anologies to steer the discussion-I don't like arguing :winky: But as far as Jesus's story goes...I will admit I know his story at a very high and basic level but I doub't that the bible focuses this much on the actual torture or punishment Jesus had to endure against the actual sacrifice he made and the message he delivered.... Now if Passion of the christ was just about showing how Jesus Suffered or the torture he was put through for his sacrifice than I would say no matter how accurate the depiction was the focus is steered away from his actual sacrifice and message to the torture and the people who orchestrated it....Hope that makes sense... PS:Mel Gibson has been in a lot of trouble due to some of his Anti-semitic remarks IT does - trust me! What you saw in Passion of the Christ is something yearly for christians all across the globe during Lent (40 days before Easter). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stations_of_the_Cross Well if people are determined to take the wrong message, there is nothing much you can do. Can you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniac Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Stop this immigrations who are to spread the disease. Make it clear to everyone, what Wester world expects from you to be before living there.Its very much understandble that Islam & multculturism never can live together; its already too late to recognise the issue as an issue by most of these multi-cultured Muslim welcoming countries; its time to be pro-active and deal with the problem that is arrising. Oil & water cant be mixed; If you let these oil flow on water, someone will spark fire on it to burn. Now this is a catch-22 situation isn't it?The western world prides itself in letting people practice whatever religion/customs they want and live as they please as long as they don't violate the law...Now if they start laying ground rules for beyond the common civil laws then there won't be much of a difference between them and the middle-east. I agree with what you are saying but thatis practically the situation they are caught up in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 What is really puzzling is that every religion is based on an irrational leap of faith when you believe in a creator in the absence of scientific evidence pointing to the same. But some people whose faith is strong enough to withstand the lack of evidence is not strong enough to ignore the criticism of others. The real question here Ganno is that chance occurrences (randomness) in day to day events are correlated to religious faith. That makes people believe there is a "way" or whatever to heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desi Cartman Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 IIRC the official stand of the Church AFAIK was that "Go watch the movie and return in better faith". Also' date=' I am surprised to hear the "Passion of Christ" had anti-semitic undertones! It was just a pure depiction of the Bible.[/quote'] No, majority of churches were against Passion of the Christ and very strictly against Da vincci code. The reason for being against Passion was because they dont believe that anybody can show the punishment that Christ took. There can not be any reenactment as it was beyond what anybody can ever imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desi Cartman Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 What is really puzzling is that every religion is based on an irrational leap of faith when you believe in a creator in the absence of scientific evidence pointing to the same. But some people whose faith is strong enough to withstand the lack of evidence is not strong enough to ignore the criticism of others. The real question here Ganno is that chance occurrences (randomness) in day to day events are correlated to religious faith. That makes people believe there is a "way" or whatever to heaven. if one is so scared that they believe in something which has never been proven, then sure they'll be scared to upset that supreme power. :giggle: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 No' date=' [b']majority of churches were against Passion of the Christ and very strictly against Da vincci code. The reason for being against Passion was because they dont believe that anybody can show the punishment that Christ took. There can not be any reenactment as it was beyond what anybody can ever imagine. Kaka, I was talking about the Roman Catholic Church which has the highest order. Read the official statement which will be along the lines of "Watch and come back in better faith". There will be stupid protestors, radicals and pastors with their sense of ooomph but they are not the ones who speak for christians around the world. Edit - To clarify, the RC church never held extremist views about banning the book or the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 No' date=' majority of churches were against Passion of the Christ and very strictly against Da vincci code. The reason for being against Passion was because they dont believe that anybody can show the punishment that Christ took. There can not be any reenactment as it was beyond what anybody can ever imagine.[/quote'] Must be in Oz..but here in US, evangelical churches urged people to watch the movie and feel the pain of Christ. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passion_of_the_Christ#Response_from_evangelicals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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