Where are India's next test openers?

[bharat297]

I don't like to judge spinners just based on figures. It can be very misleading.The way I like to judge a spinner is the following: 1. How much do they turn the ball? (Yes I know Kumble wasn't a big turner of the ball and he got 600+ wickets but lets not make the exception the norm) 2. How do they vary their flight and trajectory? 3. How much bounce do they extract? 4. How much control do they have? 5. How many variations do they have? If you take into all 5 factors, Harmeet Singh is ahead of other bowlers like Ashwin, Chawla, Mishra, Abdulla and Ra.Sharma. Ashwin has more variations but doesn't get as much turn or vary his trajectory enough to be able to get wickets outside of the subcontinent in Tests. Seeing as though no other spinner in India has those 5 attributes, I think it's worth taking a gamble with Harmeet Singh before he gets blooded into IPL and starts bowling darts.

[King Tendulkar]

There is no evidence to suggest that Pujara would struggle in ODIs. In fact, Pujara has excellent ODI credentials; he was the highest scorer in the U-19 World Cup in 2006 and has the highest List-A average for any cricketer in India. He averages 57 with 25 50+ scores (including 8 centuries) in 61 matches. Meanwhile, while you bash selectors, also give them credit for giving a break to Bhubaneshwar Kumar.

Well he may have done ok in odis. He may still do ok in odis. But facts are every tom dick and harry know at this point in time he suited to tests. But he may have debuted in odis, struggled to rotate strike and then launch in to big shots, get out. Then all would say he is not good enough blah blah he would get slaughterd. This may have meant selctors not tpick him for tests and also his confidence would go down etc etc As for Kumar, lets just wait and see. Nice debut but frankly am not convinced a 130kmh bowler can have success long term especially in tests. Hope I am proved wrong though

[Magneto]

Well he may have done ok in odis. He may still do ok in odis. But facts are every tom dick and harry know at this point in time he suited to tests. But he may have debuted in odis, struggled to rotate strike and then launch in to big shots, get out. Then all would say he is not good enough blah blah he would get slaughterd. This may have meant selctors not tpick him for tests and also his confidence would go down etc etc As for Kumar, lets just wait and see. Nice debut but frankly am not convinced a 130kmh bowler can have success long term especially in tests. Hope I am proved wrong though

Pujara is suited to Tests and can be very handy at ODIs as well. He does rotate the strike well and is not too bad with the big shots either. Rohit looked good in the limited format early and that's why he was drafted in to the team. He was quite successful in the 2007 T20 World Cup. He has failed over a period of time but it was not wrong to draft him in the limited overs side. Also, he was supposed to make his Test debut against South Africa in 2010 in Nagpur but he got injured in the morning playing 'rocketball'. So, it's not that he was not been given the right opportunities. These selections can go either way - Kohli did pretty well in the ODI side while Rohit didn't. There isn't much difference between their domestic averages anyway.

[Magneto]

I don't like to judge spinners just based on figures. It can be very misleading.The way I like to judge a spinner is the following: 1. How much do they turn the ball? (Yes I know Kumble wasn't a big turner of the ball and he got 600+ wickets but lets not make the exception the norm) 2. How do they vary their flight and trajectory? 3. How much bounce do they extract? 4. How much control do they have? 5. How many variations do they have? If you take into all 5 factors, Harmeet Singh is ahead of other bowlers like Ashwin, Chawla, Mishra, Abdulla and Ra.Sharma. Ashwin has more variations but doesn't get as much turn or vary his trajectory enough to be able to get wickets outside of the subcontinent in Tests. Seeing as though no other spinner in India has those 5 attributes, I think it's worth taking a gamble with Harmeet Singh before he gets blooded into IPL and starts bowling darts.

What Harmeet's figures do say is that he is troubling no one in the country at present. If his turn, bounce, flight and variations were so lethal, Indian domestic cricketers would have fallen like ninepins. The fact that the English Performance Squad carted him around simply proves that he still has miles to go. You are saying that Ashwin doesn't turn the ball enough to get wickets outside the subcontinent. True. But, Harmeet probably doesn't have enough turn or variation presently to get wickets at the Ranji level. Any spinner with turn, bounce and accuracy will gets buckets of wicket in Ranji today.

[bharat297]

What Harmeet's figures do say is that he is troubling no one in the country at present. If his turn, bounce, flight and variations were so lethal, Indian domestic cricketers would have fallen like ninepins. The fact that the English Performance Squad carted him around simply proves that he still has miles to go. You are saying that Ashwin doesn't turn the ball enough to get wickets outside the subcontinent. True. But, Harmeet probably doesn't have enough turn or variation presently to get wickets at the Ranji level. Any spinner with turn, bounce and accuracy will gets buckets of wicket in Ranji today.

Thats a very naive approach. You need to actually look at how they bowl. Maybe they beat the bat a lot. Maybe they were bowling defensively. If all you're looking at is stats, then your opinion could be generated by a software algorithm. Well done!

[Old guy]

What Harmeet's figures do say is that he is troubling no one in the country at present. If his turn, bounce, flight and variations were so lethal, Indian domestic cricketers would have fallen like ninepins. The fact that the English Performance Squad carted him around simply proves that he still has miles to go. You are saying that Ashwin doesn't turn the ball enough to get wickets outside the subcontinent. True. But, Harmeet probably doesn't have enough turn or variation presently to get wickets at the Ranji level. Any spinner with turn, bounce and accuracy will gets buckets of wicket in Ranji today.

vm its talent which is more important then performance :P also chappel hyped him up so who are u to question?! :beee:

[bharat297]

vm its talent which is more important then performance :P also chappel hyped him up so who are u to question?! :beee:

Ok according to your algorithm, where end stats are all that matters, then Joginder Sharma is pretty much the best bowler in Indian domestic cricket at the moment. He's better than Pankaj Singh. Yep so pick him. Don't worry about watching him and judging who has more talent. Just read the stats.

[Old guy]

Ok according to your algorithm, where end stats are all that matters, then Joginder Sharma is pretty much the best bowler in Indian domestic cricket at the moment. He's better than Pankaj Singh. Yep so pick him. Don't worry about watching him and judging who has more talent. Just read the stats.

no according to me u need to first perform..after that selectors need to see weather some one is good or not its not the other way around just bcos they think some one is good they CANNOT pick any ne who does not performs hope u get me this time around

[bharat297]

no according to me u need to first perform..after that selectors need to see weather some one is good or not its not the other way around just bcos they think some one is good they CANNOT pick any ne who does not performs hope u get me this time around

But Joginder Sharma has performed, so ignoring his fitness and recent surgery, would you pick him over Pankaj Singh if you had to pick between the 2?

[Old guy]

But Joginder Sharma has performed' date=' so ignoring his fitness and recent surgery, would you pick him over Pankaj Singh if you had to pick between the 2?[/quote'] again u did not get me!!! i said first player needs to perform..then selectors will consider weather he is good or not joginder is not a good player..so he wont be considered what u want is hyped up players in team even WITHOUT performance

[Bumper]

I think with Badrinath the problem was he wasn't given an extended run at Test level. Back in 2008 when a spot opened up, I thought Badrinath should have been given the first go instead of Yuvraj. From a technical point of view, he occassionally collapses on the back-foot when playing the hook or pull but other than that he has a pretty decent technique. Steep bounce would test him though. Regarding Gambhir my biggest issue with Gambhir is that his main scoring shot in ODI cricket (something that works very well for him) consistently gets him out in Test cricket. So he's caught in 2 minds. I agree he is mentally tough and a big game player but right now I think there are other openers at Ranji that deserve a chance at Test level. Maybe Vijay and Rahane shoud be given a chance.

Technique and shot selection are basic & necessary ingredients, I'd agree with that, you need a bit of all that. But to me a lot of success at international level is attributable to mental strength. That's why Sehwag and Gambhir have enjoyed whatever success they have enjoyed in the past and Badrinath looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights at the test level. Even Dhoni with his lousy technique has enjoyed a pretty decent average till recently. Kohli hardly looks text book, but he knows how to score runs at the international level. If your mind's right, you will find a way to work out your limitations. OTOH, even with a superior technique, a softer batsman will always under perform. So i'd still back Gambhir and Sehwag. Rahane should replace Tendulkar and Rohit Sharma should replace Yuvraj/Raina/Jadeja

[Old guy]

so all players need to do one thing to be even considered for spot in test team and that is performance only after this performance part is done selectors should judge weather some one is good or not now here we can disagree who is good or not good but saying harmeet hsould be in team who got smacked at domestic level is just wrong it will actually discourage players to perform in ranjis also too much importance will be given to under 19 in which players are selected on quota basis ..rajpoot was ignored and he is probably quickest under 19 pacer in our country!

[bharat297]

again u did not get me!!! i said first player needs to perform..then selectors will consider weather he is good or not joginder is not a good player..so he wont be considered what u want is hyped up players in team even WITHOUT performance

Harmeet Singh averages 23 @ FC cricket at a strike rate of 48. Which is better than pretty much any other spinner in domestic cricket at the moment. He also has more turn, bounce, flight & drift than other spinners. Given our current Indian spinners are getting smashed and not taking wickets, what benefit do you gain from making him play in a substandard domestic competition like the Ranji Trophy? Who is you alternative spinner then?

[Old guy]

Harmeet Singh averages 23 @ FC cricket at a strike rate of 48. Which is better than pretty much any other spinner in domestic cricket at the moment. He also has more turn, bounce, flight & drift than other spinners. Given our current Indian spinners are getting smashed and not taking wickets, what benefit do you gain from making him play in a substandard domestic competition like the Ranji Trophy? Who is you alternative spinner then?

played 5 matches in last 2 matches did nothing extraordinary hell actually got smacked not good enough to warrant a place in test side well last year darekar after decent performance was selected in a team in any other system he will be next in line cos he was in a team...

[bharat297]

Technique and shot selection are basic & necessary ingredients, I'd agree with that, you need a bit of all that. But to me a lot of success at international level is attributable to mental strength. That's why Sehwag and Gambhir have enjoyed whatever success they have enjoyed in the past and Badrinath looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights at the test level. Even Dhoni with his lousy technique has enjoyed a pretty decent average till recently. Kohli hardly looks text book, but he knows how to score runs at the international level. If your mind's right, you will find a way to work out your limitations. OTOH, even with a superior technique, a softer batsman will always under perform. So i'd still back Gambhir and Sehwag. Rahane should replace Tendulkar and Rohit Sharma should replace Yuvraj/Raina/Jadeja

Yep fair enough I agree with you there. My concern with Sehwag is that he has always been purely a hand-eye coordination player and as you get older hand-eye coordination is generally the first thing to go. If you look at players like Tendulkar, Dravid, Ponting, Kallis, etc. even when they went through rough patches they were able to rely on decent technique to cover lapses in hand-eye coordination whereas someone like Jayasuriya struggled alot in his last few years. I dont think Sehwag can be as destructive away from home as he once was. I think its a huge risk picking Sehwag. With Gambhir its his main scoring shot that worries me. Away from home, he hardly ever scores down the ground anymore which is a bit of a concern for an opening batsman. The best opening batsmen are very good at driving straight down the ground. Look at Gavaskar, Hayden, Sehwag (in his prime). Even Smith with his unorthodox technique drives down the ground pretty well and brings the bat down straight. Hopefully he can turn his form around because he's a very tough competitor.

[The Outsider]

Harmeet Singh averages 23 @ FC cricket at a strike rate of 48. Which is better than pretty much any other spinner in domestic cricket at the moment. He also has more turn, bounce, flight & drift than other spinners. Given our current Indian spinners are getting smashed and not taking wickets, what benefit do you gain from making him play in a substandard domestic competition like the Ranji Trophy? Who is you alternative spinner then?

Haven't seem much of Harmeet, so won't comment on that but if you analyze with prudence, Ranji isn't as substandard of a tournament as you make it out to be. Sure there are walkover teams and complete patta tracks at times, but there are also some good tracks and good teams in the competition and if you look at the performance in these kind of encounters you will usually see only good players perform. Specially this season, a lot of tracks have been pretty good in North India and performances on them against good teams do tell you quite a bit.

[bharat297]

played 5 matches in last 2 matches did nothing extraordinary hell actually got smacked not good enough to warrant a place in test side well last year darekar after decent performance was selected in a team in any other system he will be next in line cos he was in a team...

*sigh* He will be next in line cos he was in a team? I'm not going to try to understand that. The thing is yes, 90% of the time you reward consistent performance at domestic level. If India had Australia or England's standard of domestic competition then yes I would agree with you. However in the case of India's domestic competition ... Simply put ... it's crap. We have far too many teams & flat pitches. The types of performances we reward at domestic level don't necessarily translate to international level. For example, because of the low-bounce our pace bowlers have to bowl short of a length to try to contain batsman. So a bowler that bowls at 7m or 8m will hit the top of off. Any fuller and its drivable length for batsmen. Look at Dinda's natural length ... far too short but he's a consistent performer at Ranji. There is no incentive to pitch the ball up because there's nothing on offer for the pace bowlers. For the spinners, they have to bowl flatter trajectories and stump to stump and batsman who play attacking cricket will invariably fall after a while. When these bowlers come to international level, the pace bowlers' natural length is too short and invariably get cut or pulled around the ground and the spinners are bowling far too flat. There are exceptions ... Pure swing bowlers will do well (as long as they swing the ball), which is why Irfan, Sreesanth, Praveen, RP Singh, etc. have had some success, but for spinners, Ranji Trophy doesn't help them out much because the pitches don't give them any purchase so invariably attacking spinners get smashed. This is why India haven't really produced many high quality bowlers through their domestic system. Srinath, Zaheer, Kumble and maybe Harbhajan. Kumble and Harbhajan were blooded into international cricket very early. Zaheer's career really only took off when he went to play another domestic competition in England where he started bowling a much better length. Srinath had played 2 seasons of Ranji Trophy but other than that very few consistent domestic performers have been able to translate their skills into the international level. It's simple ... you make a really talented player play in a lower standard competition, they develop bad habits. What Harmeet is learning is how to take wickets on absolutely flat surfaces, which while important is not the best thing to learn for a spinner because it invariably means bowling flatter and more defensively. There are times when you need to just show common sense and select the best team. Sometimes performance at domestic level doesn't accurately reflect what would happen at international level. This requires a good understanding of cricket and more than just an ability to read stats.

[bharat297]

Maybe the middle ground would be to pick Harmeet in the India A side so he gets an opportunity to bowl on pitches all round the world.

[Old guy]

*sigh* He will be next in line cos he was in a team? I'm not going to try to understand that. The thing is yes, 90% of the time you reward consistent performance at domestic level. If India had Australia or England's standard of domestic competition then yes I would agree with you. However in the case of India's domestic competition ... Simply put ... it's crap. We have far too many teams & flat pitches. The types of performances we reward at domestic level don't necessarily translate to international level. For example, because of the low-bounce our pace bowlers have to bowl short of a length to try to contain batsman. So a bowler that bowls at 7m or 8m will hit the top of off. Any fuller and its drivable length for batsmen. Look at Dinda's natural length ... far too short but he's a consistent performer at Ranji. There is no incentive to pitch the ball up because there's nothing on offer for the pace bowlers. For the spinners, they have to bowl flatter trajectories and stump to stump and batsman who play attacking cricket will invariably fall after a while. When these bowlers come to international level, the pace bowlers' natural length is too short and invariably get cut or pulled around the ground and the spinners are bowling far too flat. There are exceptions ... Pure swing bowlers will do well (as long as they swing the ball), which is why Irfan, Sreesanth, Praveen, RP Singh, etc. have had some success, but for spinners, Ranji Trophy doesn't help them out much because the pitches don't give them any purchase so invariably attacking spinners get smashed. This is why India haven't really produced many high quality bowlers through their domestic system. Srinath, Zaheer, Kumble and maybe Harbhajan. Kumble and Harbhajan were blooded into international cricket very early. Zaheer's career really only took off when he went to play another domestic competition in England where he started bowling a much better length. Srinath had played 2 seasons of Ranji Trophy but other than that very few consistent domestic performers have been able to translate their skills into the international level. It's simple ... you make a really talented player play in a lower standard competition, they develop bad habits. What Harmeet is learning is how to take wickets on absolutely flat surfaces, which while important is not the best thing to learn for a spinner because it invariably means bowling flatter and more defensively. There are times when you need to just show common sense and select the best team. Sometimes performance at domestic level doesn't accurately reflect what would happen at international level. This requires a good understanding of cricket and more than just an ability to read stats.

that bold part where have i heard it before? :hmmm: btw check out how well bhajji performed in domestic cricket before he was called up.... just read the wiki article... also one more thing we play mostly on flat tracks at highest level...(tests ) 80 percent of cricket is played in subcontinent like conditions and ranji too has all kind of tracks and if bowler is as good as chappel and u are hyping him up to be then he should have no problem performing at ranji level now should he ? all im asking is why do u think harmeet is so good ? he bowled well at under 19 level but there is huge gap between under 19 and real cricket hell even performing is ranji is harder why do u think great unmukt chand is struggling in ranjis ? hell every person who was even included as youngster had lot of success at ranji level .. if competition is so bad and its so easy that skill of player will actually regress then he hsould be atleast able to win few matches before he is called up no ? you just think ranji trophy is too easy but like outy said some tracks and pitches are but otherwise only good players perform and harmeet got smashed at zonal level and bad news for him cos he will be getting similar tracks at highest level too,,, all im saying is to be considered to be called up in national or even a side he needs to perform at ranjis there is no other way around it and im happy its like that..under 19 level has hige gap his bowling looked good there but u have to understand many of those under 19 kids ddont even get into domestic first class sides of there countries and then ur ignoring the fact many of those sides are historically awful against spin and only best of there best batsman play spin well no wonder they struggled so badly vs him and at ranji he bowled like every other spinner we have he is good but i dont see anything special to warrant place in team without even performing last guy we triedl ike this was great rahul sharma he did ok in some odis and then struggled has been useless on all a tours and has mediocre domestic record

[Old guy]

btw rahul sharma nad darekar.. both spinners one selected on talent alone and with mediocre first class performance other guy was darekar who performed in ranji guess who performed in a tour and who did not ? :hmmm: