Where are India's next test openers?

[bharat297]

Haven't seem much of Harmeet, so won't comment on that but if you analyze with prudence, Ranji isn't as substandard of a tournament as you make it out to be. Sure there are walkover teams and complete patta tracks at times, but there are also some good tracks and good teams in the competition and if you look at the performance in these kind of encounters you will usually see only good players perform. Specially this season, a lot of tracks have been pretty good in North India and performances on them against good teams do tell you quite a bit.

The problem with Ranji though is that there are so many teams so the talent pool is diluted. It means you get a large group of average players. Currently we have a tiered system but its tiered based on teams rather than players. Something like Duleep Trophy where you have 5 teams would be a better domestic comp if they played it all year round. It means you have a much more concentrated player pool and thus a higher standard of cricket. Obviously there's some politics around selection that needs to be sorted out but thats a separate issue. Ranji should be used as a stepping stone to get into Duleep. Then on top of that add a variety of pitches, which I hear starting to happen now. I have another thread where I proposed a future domestic setup but no one responded. I guess no one liked my idea.

[bharat297]

btw rahul sharma nad darekar.. both spinners one selected on talent alone and with mediocre first class performance other guy was darekar who performed in ranji guess who performed in a tour and who did not ? :hmmm:

Rahul Sharma was selected on IPL performance. Don't mix issues here. He's not a big turner of the ball and he bowls far too fast. Besides, he was selected only for t20 anyway, not tests.

[Lurker]

An opener's thread breaks into spinner brainstorming? :hmmm:

[bharat297]

that bold part where have i heard it before? :hmmm: btw check out how well bhajji performed in domestic cricket before he was called up.... just read the wiki article... also one more thing we play mostly on flat tracks at highest level...(tests ) 80 percent of cricket is played in subcontinent like conditions and ranji too has all kind of tracks and if bowler is as good as chappel and u are hyping him up to be then he should have no problem performing at ranji level now should he ? all im asking is why do u think harmeet is so good ? he bowled well at under 19 level but there is huge gap between under 19 and real cricket hell even performing is ranji is harder why do u think great unmukt chand is struggling in ranjis ? hell every person who was even included as youngster had lot of success at ranji level .. if competition is so bad and its so easy that skill of player will actually regress then he hsould be atleast able to win few matches before he is called up no ? you just think ranji trophy is too easy but like outy said some tracks and pitches are but otherwise only good players perform and harmeet got smashed at zonal level and bad news for him cos he will be getting similar tracks at highest level too,,, all im saying is to be considered to be called up in national or even a side he needs to perform at ranjis there is no other way around it and im happy its like that..under 19 level has hige gap his bowling looked good there but u have to understand many of those under 19 kids ddont even get into domestic first class sides of there countries and then ur ignoring the fact many of those sides are historically awful against spin and only best of there best batsman play spin well no wonder they struggled so badly vs him and at ranji he bowled like every other spinner we have he is good but i dont see anything special to warrant place in team without even performing last guy we triedl ike this was great rahul sharma he did ok in some odis and then struggled has been useless on all a tours and has mediocre domestic record

I already told you why I think Harmeet is good. I can't see another Indian spinner at the moment who possesses Harmeet Singh's turn, bounce, flight and drift. I don't even know what his stats were in the under 19's competition but I saw the way he bowled and I can't see another Indian spinner that can bowl like that.

[bharat297]

An opener's thread breaks into spinner brainstorming? :hmmm:

Sorry that was my fault. I let myself get caught up in this argument. I'll stop now.

[Lurker]

Sorry that was my fault. I let myself get caught up in this argument. I'll stop now.

Oh no worries, that was merely an observation. If anyone should stop, its me..:winky:

[Old guy]

I already told you why I think Harmeet is good. I can't see another Indian spinner at the moment who possesses Harmeet Singh's turn' date=' bounce, flight and drift. I don't even know what his stats were in the under 19's competition but I saw the way he bowled and I can't see another Indian spinner that can bowl like that.[/quote'] harmeet is not a big turner his biggest strength is flight

[Old guy]

Rahul Sharma was selected on IPL performance. Don't mix issues here. He's not a big turner of the ball and he bowls far too fast. Besides' date=' he was selected only for t20 anyway, not tests.[/quote'] oh come on sounds quite the same to me!

[bharat297]

oh come on sounds quite the same to me!

Sounds the same? Uh oh! Like I said maybe you should watch another sport then.

[bharat297]

harmeet is not a big turner his biggest strength is flight

Seems to be getting a fair bit of turn here. More than I can see most other Indian bowlers getting outside of India. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZQTtf1R1qg]Harmeet Singh, U-19 World Cup - YouTube[/ame]

[bharat297]

And here from 1:32 [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt4OgVco26s]India U-19's Bowling Attack, April 2012 - YouTube[/ame]

[Old guy]

saw all of these matches live more then turn it was his flight which was very impressive but like i siad these kids made him look too good he has potential to be good ..he needs to work hard and get players who are good against spin out do u know what chawla did at under 19 level? plz check his spell vs pak lol

[bharat297]

Chawla was never a big turner of the ball. And Im not saying Harmeet Singh doesn't use his flight but he's getting more turn than most other Indian spinners at the moment.

[The Outsider]

bharat, like I said I've not seen too much of Harmeet so will keep my conversation generic with regards to U-19 and Ranji. I've been following this years' Ranji more avidly than India's matches because I know what to expect when India goes on to the field. Let's look at some stars from U-19 and see how they performed in Ranji - Unmukt, Aparajith, Harmeet, Sandeep. The only one who has built on from U-19 was Sandeep - Unmukt and Aparajith are batsmen, so they should have found it easier to perform on those dead wickets, but they still could not. There is a jump from U-19 to Ranji, and Ranji for all it's flaws is definitely a better judge of potential than U-19.

[Old guy]

bharat, like I said I've not seen too much of Harmeet so will keep my conversation generic with regards to U-19 and Ranji. I've been following this years' Ranji more avidly than India's matches because I know what to expect when India goes on to the field. Let's look at some stars from U-19 and see how they performed in Ranji - Unmukt, Aparajith, Harmeet, Sandeep. The only one who has built on from U-19 was Sandeep - Unmukt and Aparajith are batsmen, so they should have found it easier to perform on those dead wickets, but they still could not. There is a jump from U-19 to Ranji, and Ranji for all it's flaws is definitely a better judge of potential than U-19.

totaly agree plz dont let hype of chappel fool u these guys have potential but gap between under 19 and international is huge! even ranji and under 19 is huge and like i siadm any of under 19 cricketers dont even get into domestic sides of there respective countries!

[bharat297]

totaly agree plz dont let hype of chappel fool u these guys have potential but gap between under 19 and international is huge! even ranji and under 19 is huge and like i siadm any of under 19 cricketers dont even get into domestic sides of there respective countries!

I'm not disagreeing with you on that. I'm not simply "fooled" by Ian Chappell. I dont think Unmukt Chand is ready for internationals but in the case of Harmeet Singh I think he's an exception. I dont see another Indian spinner that possesses his skills and talent and he's done Ok in Ranji so far. Like I said, I think Harmeet Singh will benefit more from A-tours than Ranji Trophy. I think when you have standout talents like Harmeet Singh then maybe you should put them in environments that will prepare them for international cricket. I dont think Ranji will. Our domestic competition is far too diluted. Yes the under-19's batsmen weren't great but still there are aspects of his bowling that are irrespective of the batsmen. His release, wrist position, seam position, bounce, turn and flight were quite impressive on Australian pitches that weren't dustbowls. Right now Indian spinners are struggling so I think sometimes you need to show some common sense and make exceptions for talented cricketers.

[CG]

I'm not disagreeing with you on that. I'm not simply "fooled" by Ian Chappell. I dont think Unmukt Chand is ready for internationals but in the case of Harmeet Singh I think he's an exception. I dont see another Indian spinner that possesses his skills and talent and he's done Ok in Ranji so far. Like I said, I think Harmeet Singh will benefit more from A-tours than Ranji Trophy. I think when you have standout talents like Harmeet Singh then maybe you should put them in environments that will prepare them for international cricket. I dont think Ranji will. Our domestic competition is far too diluted. Yes the under-19's batsmen weren't great but still there are aspects of his bowling that are irrespective of the batsmen. His release, wrist position, seam position, bounce, turn and flight were quite impressive on Australian pitches that weren't dustbowls. Right now Indian spinners are struggling so I think sometimes you need to show some common sense and make exceptions for talented cricketers.

You are right spin bowling talent has become rare in india.Outside of ashwin and ojha ,there is barely anybody and those who are there like iqbal abdulah they are more LOI Material or likes of chawla and mishra who have yet to grab the chances.Another one is rahul sharma who can be tried on dustbowls. But harmeet still needs to prove himself in ranji agianst batsman who are good against spin.If he does that he will learn a lot.

[Old guy]

a tour i can agree if u see genuine potential should be included but still i will not rate him high if he cannot perform at ranji level..if some one is class act h should be able to run through sides at domestic level or atleast perform better then other mediocre players actually i think bowlers need bit of grind to learn how to bowl long spells in tests and learn how to plan dismissals..this is where ishant sharma is going wrong there is no planning just bowling out side off stump day in and day out and i think picking him too early is the reason he is like that

[The Outsider]

I'm not disagreeing with you on that. I'm not simply "fooled" by Ian Chappell. I dont think Unmukt Chand is ready for internationals but in the case of Harmeet Singh I think he's an exception. I dont see another Indian spinner that possesses his skills and talent and he's done Ok in Ranji so far. Like I said, I think Harmeet Singh will benefit more from A-tours than Ranji Trophy. I think when you have standout talents like Harmeet Singh then maybe you should put them in environments that will prepare them for international cricket. I dont think Ranji will. Our domestic competition is far too diluted. Yes the under-19's batsmen weren't great but still there are aspects of his bowling that are irrespective of the batsmen. His release, wrist position, seam position, bounce, turn and flight were quite impressive on Australian pitches that weren't dustbowls. Right now Indian spinners are struggling so I think sometimes you need to show some common sense and make exceptions for talented cricketers.

Yeah, Harmeet should surely be part of the A tours in the coming year - think India has 3 lined up. And I will try to get hold of U-19 footage to watch him more closely. You are a very good observer of cricket from your past posts though you tend to go underground for very long times and if you are rating Harmeet as much he is surely worth a closer look than I have given, prejudiced with my thoughts about left arm darters that the nation is producing en masse.

[bharat297]

a tour i can agree if u see genuine potential should be included but still i will not rate him high if he cannot perform at ranji level..if some one is class act h should be able to run through sides at domestic level or atleast perform better then other mediocre players actually i think bowlers need bit of grind to learn how to bowl long spells in tests and learn how to plan dismissals..this is where ishant sharma is going wrong there is no planning just bowling out side off stump day in and day out and i think picking him too early is the reason he is like that

Agree on some points. I agree re: Ishant. He needs to learn how to setup batsmen and bowl to a plan. However my point with Ranji is this. If the pitches had the variety of international pitches and the pace and bounce and the % of high quality players were greater then yes Ranji would be beneficial. But playing against mediocre players doesn't always help you to get ready to play against better players. It's not a nice linear progression. Thats the problem with our domestic comp. I think average players benefit from Ranji because they improve but good players don't get much better.