Lurker Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 On this matter Ind dont trust Pak/Pak army claims... Pak dont trust ind/ind army claims... In such situation anywhere in the world probably only workable solution would b to involve 3rd party whom both can trust which Pak proposed but Ind not ready even for that, yeah I knw because they dont want to "internationalize" the issue, they never did so and also they have govt and judicial system unlike Pak etc etc... Lagay raho then... Comments like yours make me inherently proud to be an Indian Asim. I know you are one of the sane ones so here goes why. Two words for you. SHIMLA ACCORD. This was signed after 1971 war and inked by Indira Gandhi and Bhutto. It basically laid the framework that any future Indo-Pak relation issues would be driven by this accord. You can look it up if you like. It makes me proud because long after Miss Gandhi died it has been followed to a T by every PM that followed, including non-Congress. Men like VP Singh, IK Gujral, Vajpayee never waivered from Shimla Accord. And even today if you look at discussions by Ambassdors and Indian Strategy makers they do talk about Shimla Accord and how it is the backbone for Indo-Pak relations. I mentioned this because India has those institutions in place, thanks to Nehru, that such policies and carried down from one Govt to other without any issue. In case of Pakistan, Bhutto inked it then himself made comments - Ghaas khaayenge bomb banaayenge - got killed by Army, who then killed all the accords, some other Govt comes in power, their accords get killed etc...you know the drill. We have our problems my friend, and we have not been the most ideal neighbours. But when it comes to Indo-Pak relations we are most definitely the mature nation....by far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asim Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 ^ olright... Agree on all... but what solution to such recent problem India proposed/can propese which is practically acceptable for both nations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jairamesh Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 stick to Shimla Accord, and unfortunately India should crudely bring the LOC alive, i.e. build a physical concrete wall, 10m high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utalk Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 But surely Shimla agreement is not working. If it was we wouldn't have tension on borders every 5/6 years. We wouldn't have Siachin and Kargil. We dont live in jungle law that powerful will eat the weaker. Clearly Shimla agreement is not working because both countries don't trust each other. Imagine if this tension escalates into a war and things get out of control, will the UN and other players stay out saying oh they said in Shimla agreement that they would sort their problems themselves so let them bomb each other into destruction. You have to be realistic and see sense instead looking at everything from patriotic glass that might destroy you in the end. It's time India forgets Shimla accord and Pakistan does away with UN resolution rhetoric and work towards lasting peace that is acceptable to people of Kashmir valley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarkar Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 But surely Shimla agreement is not working. If it was we wouldn't have tension on borders every 5/6 years. We wouldn't have Siachin and Kargil. We dont live in jungle law that powerful will eat the weaker. Clearly Shimla agreement is not working because both countries don't trust each other. Imagine if this tension escalates into a war and things get out of control, will the UN and other players stay out saying oh they said in Shimla agreement that they would sort their problems themselves so let them bomb each other into destruction. You have to be realistic and see sense instead looking at everything from patriotic glass that might destroy you in the end. It's time India forgets Shimla accord and Pakistan does away with UN resolution rhetoric and work towards lasting peace that is acceptable to people of Kashmir valley. Its time Pakistan forget about Kashmir because Kashmir belongs to India we dont need any UN resoultion because the accession of kashmir to India was done by the Maharaja of Kashmir by his own free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarke Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Its time Pakistan forget about Kashmir because Kashmir belongs to India we dont need any UN resoultion because the accession of kashmir to India was done by the Maharaja of Kashmir by his own free will. Its good to see a patriotic Pakistani like Sarkar make so much sense. Pioneer/Asim/Icono etc can hopefully follow suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Its time Pakistan forget about Kashmir because Kashmir belongs to India we dont need any UN resoultion because the accession of kashmir to India was done by the Maharaja of Kashmir by his own free will. Great to see such sentiments being expressed by a Pakistani! :two_thumbs_up: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utalk Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Its time Pakistan forget about Kashmir because Kashmir belongs to India we dont need any UN resoultion because the accession of kashmir to India was done by the Maharaja of Kashmir by his own free will. Kid do you know who went to UN to intervene in the first place in 1948?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swing_n_Speed Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Kashmir is nothing but a Sunni fundamentalist movement which their leaders try to portray as an ethnic movement. It has zero support beyond Sunnis. + 1 Observing what's happening in Syria I say the same logic applies there as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utalk Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 I am beginning to take this Sarkar is a Pakistani seriously. When esteemed ICFers like Outy and Clarke say it one has to take it seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swing_n_Speed Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Violence against Shia is a black mark on Pakistan. It's started during Zia ul Haq rule in 80s when he encouraged sectarian devision to boost his rule. What makes matters worse is the fact that PMLn is bed with these groups in Punjab. Gosh. This is brutal sectarianism isn't it? Seriously people just cannot keep on dying like this just for religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swing_n_Speed Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 I dunno about Indian government their call' date=' but I would be happy to for shias, Ahmadiyya, and hindus from Pakistain to apply and grant asylum in India if resources can be provided. but never a sunni.[/quote'] Yea their plight saddens me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utalk Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Gosh. This is brutal sectarianism isn't it? Seriously people just cannot keep on dying like this just for religion. It's so sad man. Pakistan needs to wake up or this will get even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarkar Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 clarke and etranger who are you guys to decide my ethnicity will my indianess become less just because you guys called me pakistani think before you speak you dont want me to abuse in my mother tongue which you wont understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarkar Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Kid do you know who went to UN to intervene in the first place in 1948?? Pakistan has no right on Kashmir 1948 ya 2013 the answer is same pakistan ka baap ka jagir nahin kashmir hindustan ka hissa hai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 But surely Shimla agreement is not working. If it was we wouldn't have tension on borders every 5/6 years. We wouldn't have Siachin and Kargil. We dont live in jungle law that powerful will eat the weaker. Clearly Shimla agreement is not working because both countries don't trust each other. Imagine if this tension escalates into a war and things get out of control, will the UN and other players stay out saying oh they said in Shimla agreement that they would sort their problems themselves so let them bomb each other into destruction. You have to be realistic and see sense instead looking at everything from patriotic glass that might destroy you in the end. It's time India forgets Shimla accord and Pakistan does away with UN resolution rhetoric and work towards lasting peace that is acceptable to people of Kashmir valley. It is not working for whom? Thats the key to the answer then, isnt it? If Indian establishment has consistently stuck with Shimla Accord but Pakistan clearly has not why is that India's problem? It is not that Indian Strategist keep coming with excuses, it is the Pakistani (changing) Governments and Army who come up with 3rd party talks, invoking China and US, bleeding India by thousand cuts etc etc. If Pakistan did not respect Shimla accord which it solemnly inked, what is the guarantee it will respect any future accords?? I don't quite see why loss of Pakistan's credibility means India should now restart negotiation afresh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utalk Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 It is not working for whom? Thats the key to the answer then, isnt it? If Indian establishment has consistently stuck with Shimla Accord but Pakistan clearly has not why is that India's problem? It is not that Indian Strategist keep coming with excuses, it is the Pakistani (changing) Governments and Army who come up with 3rd party talks, invoking China and US, bleeding India by thousand cuts etc etc. If Pakistan did not respect Shimla accord which it solemnly inked, what is the guarantee it will respect any future accords?? I don't quite see why loss of Pakistan's credibility means India should now restart negotiation afresh. Well can go to history and keep going in circles. India clearly never really tried to resolve Kashmir issue and neither has pakistan. Pakistan army is happy with status quo and India dismisses everything as it's internal issue. Third parties have been involved in the past post Shimla. Kargil was an example when Clinton bailed Pakistan out of a mess created by itself. The way I see it India took advantage of vulnerable Pakistan in 70s when a broken country was trying to recover. Clearly Shimla has not worked for one party meaning it has failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 I am beginning to take this Sarkar is a Pakistani seriously. When esteemed ICFers like Outy and Clarke say it one has to take it seriously. Nah.. he just has a one track mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utalk Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Nah.. he just has a one track mind. You have to applaud his honesty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 clarke and etranger who are you guys to decide my ethnicity will my indianess become less just because you guys called me pakistani think before you speak you dont want me to abuse in my mother tongue which you wont understand. Abooze in Pushto! :woot: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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