EnterTheVoid Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Get your facts right at least' date=' Modi was not [i']denied visa. He already possessed one, and it was unilaterally cancelled by the USA. Modi has since not applied for visa to USA. Among people who have been treated the same way by the US are Nelson Mandela and Paul Erdos. It is the USA which now faces the prospect of having to accommodate Modi, its own business leaders (for ex. USIBC) and politicians (several Congressmen) are now singing his praises. Please, don't let inconvenient facts get in the way, the man is clearly suffering from lucidity of thought
ganeshran Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 IAnyhow' date=' Modi has been served the ultimate humiliation when the bhikaari begged to go to the US and US refused his visa.[/quote'] I am not really fond of Modi or think he will ever have a role to play outside Gujrat, but the United States should get off its moral high horse when it comes to human rights. Their wars in iraq and Afghanistan butchered hundreds of thousands of innocent people, perpetrated genocides in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, brought down elected governments not favorable to them etc etc The American culture is progressive and its people liberal, but the foreign policy of the nation is full of doublespeak and has repeatedly used brute force to further its ends under the convenient guise of protecting democracy around the world.
seedhi Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Babri Masjid demolition' date=' it's precursor events, and subsequent events are regular happenings? [/quote']In the 1950s, riots in Hyderabad are estimated to have killed thousands of people. The 1962 war was probably the biggest national tragedy. The Emergency in 1975-77, the problems in northeast throughout the 80s in which Assam had huge riots, the naxalite problem of 70s and 80s, the Punjab problem, assassination of IG, Delhi riots, Kashmir terrorism, ethnic cleansing of Pandits, assassination of Rajiv Gandhi, riots in Bhagalpur, Ahmedabad etc -- all of these preceded PVNs rule. I dont consider PVN a mass murderer. If we go by your standards, even Sardar Patel and Nehru would be characterized similarly -- the biggest riots in India in 1947-48 and later took place under their leadership. For example, when Hyderabad was annexed in 1948 it is estimated that 100,000 Muslims were killed in revenge killings for the atrocities on Hindus by the razakars.
EnterTheVoid Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 I am not really fond of Modi or think he will ever have a role to play outside Gujrat, but the United States should get off its moral high horse when it comes to human rights. Their wars in iraq and Afghanistan butchered hundreds of thousands of innocent people, perpetrated genocides in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, brought down elected governments not favorable to them etc etc The American culture is progressive and its people liberal, but the foreign policy of the nation is full of doublespeak and has repeatedly used brute force to further its ends under the convenient guise of protecting democracy around the world. Totally agree. They dropped a two atomic bombs on civilian populations centres for heavens sake, one on Hiroshima and the other on Nagasaki. Not to mention, every few years, they are hell bent on invading some country on fabricated excuses and looting them for all their wealth. When the US needs Modi for their own gain, they will happily disregard his role in the 2002 riots and welcome him on the red carpet. These same jokers conferred Stalin, a ruthless dictator that killed some 20 million of his own people, the freedom medal or something to that effect. Here, Roosevelt had no problems posing with Stalin when he suited his needs
The Outsider Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Get your facts right at least' date= Modi was not denied visa. He already possessed one, and it was unilaterally cancelled by the USA. Modi has since not applied for visa to USA. Among people who have been treated the same way by the US are Nelson Mandela and Paul Erdos. It is the USA which now faces the prospect of having to accommodate Modi, its own business leaders (for ex. USIBC) and politicians (several Congressmen) are now singing his praises. Taking a strong stand against the senior BJP leader and Hindutva icon, the US Consular division on Friday denied him a "diplomatic visa", apparently holding him responsible for the communal riots in Gujarat in 2002 which claimed over 2000 lives. In addition, his tourist/business visa which was already granted has also been revoked under a section of US Immigration and Nationality Act. A US embassy spokesman confirmed that the "Chief Minister of Gujarat Narendra Modi had applied for but was denied diplomatic visa under 214 (b) of Immigration and Nationality Act because he was not coming for a purpose that qualify for a diplomatic visa." When pointed out that Modi was already holding a tourist-cum-business visa, the spokesman said Modi's "existing tourist/business visa has been revoked under Section 212 (a)(2)(g) of the Immigration and Nationality Act." http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2005-03-18/india/27866126_1_business-visa-gujarat-riots-immigration-and-nationality-act Singing praises? The only recent report I remember reading was when a group of Congressmen made a petition to continue denying him a visa: Å¢s Mr Modi continues to pursue a potential run for higher office, we believe a change in policy to his request for a visa will only embolden Modi and his governmentÃÔ efforts to obstruct further investigations and the tandem prosecution that have still to be finished to bring the perpetrators to justice, as many as 25 members of the US House of Representatives wrote in a letter to Clinton. http://www.thehindu.com/news/continue-denying-visa-to-modi-us-congressmen/article4162963.ece And anyhow, when the US feels they need him they will allow him in and he will come running along like a poodle.
The Outsider Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 I dont consider PVN a mass murderer. If we go by your standards, even Sardar Patel and Nehru would be characterized similarly -- the biggest riots in India in 1947-48 and later took place under their leadership. For example, when Hyderabad was annexed in 1948 it is estimated that 100,000 Muslims were killed in revenge killings for the atrocities on Hindus by the razakars. Huh? Did Patel and Nehru willfully allow the killings to go on like the Congress did in '84 or Modi did in '02? Just because riots happened under other jurisdictions does not mean that they were willfully abetted like in '84 and '02.
The Outsider Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 I am not really fond of Modi or think he will ever have a role to play outside Gujrat, but the United States should get off its moral high horse when it comes to human rights. Their wars in iraq and Afghanistan butchered hundreds of thousands of innocent people, perpetrated genocides in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, brought down elected governments not favorable to them etc etc The American culture is progressive and its people liberal, but the foreign policy of the nation is full of doublespeak and has repeatedly used brute force to further its ends under the convenient guise of protecting democracy around the world. The visa comment was in response to sree_academic_theft's contention that internet idiots don't have any effect on Modi. Fact is lobbying against Modi and highlighting the role he played in '02 has had an effect on a national level, where he regularly gets his ass handed back to him on a platter anytime he steps outside Gujarat to campaign and at an international level where his image is one of a human rights abuser among a lot of powerful nations of the world.
Raghav_12 Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Is this thread about Kamalnath? Is using the lyrics of the children's song academic theft? :dontknow: Is this thread about issues of academic theft? :hysterical::hysterical:
seedhi Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Huh? Did Patel and Nehru willfully allow the killings to go on like the Congress did in '84 or Modi did in '02? Just because riots happened under other jurisdictions does not mean that they were willfully abetted like in '84 and '02.Who is to determine this? Only a court of law can decide this. There was certainly no formal inquiry against Sardar Patel or Nehru or Rajiv Gandhi. An inquiry against Modi has not found any credible evidence for such allegations. There was an inquiry commission whose report has been kept classified. Unofficially however, the blame is directly put on Nehru and Patel. ..... A lower but still horrific estimate comes from UCLA Professor Perry Anderson. "When the Indian Army took over Hyderabad, massive Hindu pogroms against the Muslim population broke out, aided and abetted by its regulars. On learning something of them, the figurehead Muslim Congressman in Delhi, Maulana Azad, then minister of education, prevailed on Nehru to let a team investigate. It reported that at a conservative estimate between 27,000 and 40,000 Muslims had been slaughtered in the space of a few weeks after the Indian takeover. This was the largest single massacre in the history of the Indian Union, dwarfing the killings by the Pathan raiders en route to Srinagar which India has ever since used as the casus belli for its annexation of Kashmir. "Nehru, on proclaiming Indian victory in Hyderabad, had announced that 'not a single communal incident' marred the triumph. What action did he take on receiving the report? He suppressed it, and at Patel's urging cancelled the appointment of one of its authors as ambassador in the Middle East. No word about the pogroms, in which his own troops had taken eager part, could be allowed to leak out. Twenty years later, when news of the report finally surfaced, his daughter banned the publication of the document as injurious to national interests." ...... http://www.islamicnewsdaily.com/islamic-news/india/declassify-report-1948-hyderabad-massacre/
The Outsider Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Is this thread about issues of academic theft? :hysterical::hysterical: Oh how amusing that you find children's songs to be pertinent to the topic, but academic theft to be off topic. Anyhow from Mandela to Stalin to Kamalnath to Narasimha Rao to.....to..... practically everyone has been brought into the discussion by Modi bhakts, so not sure why a small reference to academic theft had you in splits?
seedhi Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2005-03-18/india/27866126_1_business-visa-gujarat-riots-immigration-and-nationality-act Singing praises? The only recent report I remember reading was when a group of Congressmen made a petition to continue denying him a visa: http://www.thehindu.com/news/continue-denying-visa-to-modi-us-congressmen/article4162963.ece And anyhow, when the US feels they need him they will allow him in and he will come running along like a poodle.Ok, I have not heard he applied for a diplomatic visa. One news I had heard was a Congressman welcoming Modi's re-election by a speech on the House floor. US Congressman congratulates Narendra Modi on his electoral victory WASHINGTON: Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi's third successive electoral victory found a mention in the US House of Representatives when a Republican lawmaker congratulated him while contending that businesses flock to his state and his message "cuts across dividing lines". Congressman Aaron Schock is the first US lawmaker to have congratulated Modi on the House floor on his recent electoral victory. The young lawmaker serving Illinois's 18th congressional district said Modi was elected by a diverse coalition of voters. "Mr Speaker, I rise today in recognition of the election of Narendra Modi as third term chief minister of Gujarat, India," Schock said in his remarks in the House yesterday. The second youngest Congressman to be currently serving in House of Representatives, Schock, 31, said Modi was running on a platform of economic prosperity for all. "... and having two terms of proven results behind him, Mr Modi was elected by a diverse coalition of voters from every religion, education level, and class of society. His message cuts across dividing lines and highlights what unites, rather than what divides, those he represents," Schock said. "In both the United States and India, every election is an affirmation, not just of those who the people choose to elect, but of the very foundation on which our societies are built ? the idea that the power of government rests with the governed," he said. "Mr Modi understands the great responsibility entrusted to elected officials, and he has used his position to advocate for sound economic policies that have grown the economy of Gujarat at an astonishing rate over his past two terms," Schock said. "Businesses flock to Gujarat, creating jobs and raising the standard of living for its citizens. The successes achieved through Mr Modi's leadership have drawn praise from his countrymen and observers abroad, as well as from the Indian Diaspora around the world," he said in his remarks. He said Indian-Americans in his district in Illinois and around the United States have contributed greatly to the culture and prosperity of their adopted country. "I join with them today in congratulating Narendra Modi on his election and extending my best wishes for his third term as chief minister of Gujarat," Schock said. http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-01-05/india/36161360_1_narendra-modi-businesses-flock-electoral-victory
The Outsider Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Who is to determine this? Only a court of law can decide this. There was certainly no formal inquiry against Sardar Patel or Nehru or Rajiv Gandhi. An inquiry against Modi has not found any credible evidence for such allegations. There was an inquiry commission whose report has been kept classified. Unofficially however, the blame is directly put on Nehru and Patel. We are back to the same old "let the courts decide" routine. The courts in India are corrupt and inefficient. No major politician has ever been convicted and never will be. How does your quoted bit put the blame on Nehru and Patel? I don't see the point of bringing Nehru, Patel, Narasimha Rao into the discussion. They are all dead and have zero chance of coming to power or of any role in active politics.
Lurker Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Mods can we just have one all encompassing Modi thread? His fanboys get outraged and start a new thread every other day it seems. +1 Absolutely. Not to turn this into tangent, and maybe my comments belongs in the "Aging with ICF thread" but its a bit of a downer to see so many political threads everyday. And always with consistent themes: a) Modi this. b) Congress that. Duh! there is a Politics and Current affairs section. Take it there :bootyshake:
Raghav_12 Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Oh how amusing that you find children's songs to be pertinent to the topic, but academic theft to be off topic. Anyhow from Mandela to Stalin to Kamalnath to Narasimha Rao to.....to..... practically everyone has been brought into the discussion by Modi bhakts, so not sure why a small reference to academic theft had you in splits? What had me in splits in was your blatant doublespeak. You dragging discussions from other threads to this immediately after questioning relavance of some other post to this thread.
seedhi Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 We are back to the same old "let the courts decide" routine. The courts in India are corrupt and inefficient. No major politician has ever been convicted and never will be. Sukh Ram was convicted of corruption. So was Narasimha Rao (later the conviction was overturned). Even for Gujarat riots, an ex-minister (who was an MLA during the riots) has been convicted. An ex-president of BJP has been convicted of corruption. Shibu Soren was convicted of murder (later overturned). Against Modi, there is a Supreme Court monitored investigation which has found no evidence. How does your quoted bit put the blame on Nehru and Patel?Well, at least they are blamed for suppressing the inquiry report and therefore denying the victims justice. Inaction and suppression of justice are exactly the evidence presented against Modi to purportedly establish his guilt. I don't see the point of bringing Nehru, Patel, Narasimha Rao into the discussion. They are all dead and have zero chance of coming to power or of any role in active politics.This is directly in reference to you statement calling Modi a "mass murderer" and claiming that his becoming PM will be disastrous for the country. My contention is that the benchmark you are using would characterize almost every former PM and many leaders as "mass murderers", and that none of them actually broke the country apart.
The Outsider Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 What had me in splits in was your blatant doublespeak. You dragging discussions from other threads to this immediately after questioning relavance of some other post to this thread. Yeah, you obviously did not see anything wrong in sree_academic_theft making unprovoked personal attacks at me before that or did that not tickle your funny bone?
Crookbond Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Yeah' date=' you obviously did not see anything wrong in sree_academic_theft making unprovoked personal attacks at me before that or [b']did that not tickle your funny bone? :two_thumbs_up:
Sachin=GOD Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 A few years ago the journalist Vir Sanghvi called Modi a "mass murderer". I usually am not a big fan of Sanghvi but on this occasion I agree with him. (BTW, since the day he called Modi a mass murderer, the Gujarat CM's office has completely blocked him from any sort of access - so much so that even his phone calls aren't answered at the CM office).
seedhi Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 A few years ago the journalist Vir Sanghvi called Modi a "mass murderer". I usually am not a big fan of Sanghvi but on this occasion I agree with him. (BTW' date=' since the day he called Modi a mass murderer, the Gujarat CM's office [b']has completely blocked him from any sort of access - so much so that even his phone calls aren't answered at the CM office).Good move. Turns out that Sanghvi was a fixer and a dishonest journalist anyway. Refer to Nira Radia tapes.
Lurker Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 A few years ago the journalist Vir Sanghvi called Modi a "mass murderer". I usually am not a big fan of Sanghvi but on this occasion I agree with him. (BTW' date= since the day he called Modi a mass murderer, the Gujarat CM's office has completely blocked him from any sort of access - so much so that even his phone calls aren't answered at the CM office). Vir Sanghvi is a complex character actually. There are days I like him, and other when I think he is a total elitist moron who was born with a silver spoon and looks at the world that way. His credentials on politicis aside the man is full with stories and anecdotes. He can talk about wine fest as much as meeting Dawood Ibrahim and Karim Lala. Either he invents them or he has lived a full life. By the way I have just started reading Vinod mehta's Lucknow Boy. You and Shwetabh should check it out. Hopefully he hits on Debonair stint somewhere too :--D
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