Know Your Pakistan and the roots of Pakistani brand of hatred

[sandtest]

People who meet wealthy Pakistanis abroad obtain the impression of a fairy tale land of pious people, peace and greenery. Yet, we know that Pakistan is a nation of 145 million people, to where practically every act of Islamic terrorism can be traced. What is the real Pakistan like? Some of the following links which I have searched may provide facts. navigate through these links and arrive your own conclusion. To initiate, Colonial India was partitioned in 1947 into a pluralist, democratic India and an avowedly Islamic Pakistan. Pakistan was formed on the insistence of a political group that Muslims of the Indian subcontinent could not live in harmony with non-Muslims and that, therefore, Muslims needed a separate country. Harold Gould, in an old article has elegantly summed up the actual reasons for the demand for a separate Pakistan. http://www.counterpunch.org/gould07182003.html Jinnah's Pakistan, an interview with M.A. Jinnah and How the Pakitsan of yesterday is Pakistan of today. http://iref.homestead.com/Messiah.html Pakitsani education or how Pakistan became what it is today : Curricula and Textbooks in Pakistan http://www.sdpi.org/whats_new/reporton/State%20of%20Curr&TextBooks.pdf Making enemies Creating conflicts -- A book written by pakistani on Pakistan. http://members.tripod.com/~no_nukes_sa/Contents.html Chronicle of Genocide by Pakistan Army http://www.gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html Inside Jihad -- How Pakistan sponsors terrorism in India http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/2001/0205/kashmir_sb1.html Nuclear Enabler - Pakistan today is the most dangerous place on Earth by Jim Hoagland http://meaindia.nic.in/bestoftheweb/2002/10/14bow2.htm

[Guest dada_rocks]

Personal interaction with a sample who was born in west is hardly a true gauge of how mainland pakistan apropos India is..

[Guest dada_rocks]

Amidst freindship drama IBN7 reports today claim that 200 odd bunkers have been built across LOC on POK side.. message keep playing drama but don't bat your eyelid .. very weird sample we are dealing with here..

[sandtest]

Not surprised after reading this news today. Nearly half of the population approves bin Laden. Poll: Bin Laden Tops Musharraf in Pakistan :giggle: http://edition.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/11/poll.pakistanis/index.html?eref=edition# Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf -- a key U.S. ally -- is less popular in his own country than al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, according to a poll of Pakistanis conducted last month by an anti-terrorism organization. Additionally, nearly three-fourths of poll respondents said they oppose U.S. military action against al Qaeda and the Taliban inside Pakistan, according to results from the poll conducted by the independent polling organization Terror Free Tomorrow. According to poll results, bin Laden has a 46 percent approval rating. Musharraf's support is 38 percent.

[Zap_Brannigan]

We know this..........Now lets move on and concentrate on us,India..

[sandtest]

President Gen. Pervez Musharraf will step down as army chief and restore civilian rule to Pakistan, but only after he is re-elected president, a government lawyer announced Tuesday. :haha: that's Paki brand of "democrazy" for you. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070918/ap_on_re_as/pakistan_politics

[coffee_rules]

Rig elections to get elected...and then run the army with a puppet chief.. Isn't it how Bihar operated till recently under Lalu Prasad?

[Lurker]

Rig elections to get elected...and then run the army with a puppet chief.. Isn't it how Bihar operated till recently under Lalu Prasad?

A lot of places in India actually. The situation has always been so in Bihar, UP, MP and many other areas of North all the way to Haryana where Bhajan Lal/Bansi Lal and all the other Lals used to do this. This was no different in Bengal where Communist parties have followed it too. Not sure how it works in South India. By the way the EC has been very strict and so elections in Bihar has largely been without such antics(one of the reasons why Laloo eventually lost). xxx

[Guest dada_rocks]

Rig elections to get elected...and then run the army with a puppet chief.. Isn't it how Bihar operated till recently under Lalu Prasad?

Disliking laloo yadav is one thing btu to say he won elections due to rigging is basically giving the bihari population clean-chit over laloo's myriad mismanagment.. Laloo won because he was popular.. yes had he stayed one more term then he wud have put his robust riggin infra-structure of west bengal fame in place.. poor laloo was in close contact with jyoti basu and ilk forutnately for bihar and unfortuantely for laloo his bluff got called one term earlier..

[Guest dada_rocks]

These days every day 10-20 pakistan army officers are getting martyred ( yeah whatever the fcuk that means) by their own frankstein....... Army is under alot of heat... To keep things in check they have raised civilian trekking yourism bogey in Siachen

[King]

Something I always wanted to ask, why draw parallel to Pakistan? India is a huge country and an economy that is booming. India is thought to be one of the super powers in the coming decades while Pakistan is a small country that has been hit hard economically. Pakistan is ruled by a dictator that has no clue where the country is heading. Now why the comparisons with Pakistan I don't quite understand? If the Pakistanis hate Indians that is their opinion and you cannot lose sleep over it. I think a lot of Indians are way too embroiled with this Pakistan obsession. You don't see China competing with say Hong Kong or Singapore. There is way too much obsession with Pakistan in particular online. Indians living in India seem to hardly care what goes on in Pakistan though. They have their lives to take care of and they are busy as. If one hates Indians you can't go around complaining, take it in the stride and move on.

[coffee_rules]

Something I always wanted to ask, why draw parallel to Pakistan? India is a huge country and an economy that is booming. India is thought to be one of the super powers in the coming decades while Pakistan is a small country that has been hit hard economically. Pakistan is ruled by a dictator that has no clue where the country is heading. Now why the comparisons with Pakistan I don't quite understand? If the Pakistanis hate Indians that is their opinion and you cannot lose sleep over it. I think a lot of Indians are way too embroiled with this Pakistan obsession. You don't see China competing with say Hong Kong or Singapore. There is way too much obsession with Pakistan in particular online. Indians living in India seem to hardly care what goes on in Pakistan though. They have their lives to take care of and they are busy as. If one hates Indians you can't go around complaining, take it in the stride and move on.

Indians should lose sleep over a neighbor who can't be trusted and is working overnight in bringing down India. All the terrorist activities in India have been traced back to Pak with material support/training etc. It is affecting Indians in their daily lives, like the one that happened recently in Hyd. Delhi/Bombay have already seen blasts that can't be the handiwork of terrorists from Kashmir alone. They have got to be getting help from Pak/Muslim organisations (SIMI, etc). I guess 'taking it in the stride and moving' will not cut aymore

[Lurker]

There is way too much obsession with Pakistan in particular online. Indians living in India seem to hardly care what goes on in Pakistan though. They have their lives to take care of and they are busy as. If one hates Indians you can't go around complaining, take it in the stride and move on.

Ravi, I think the obsession essentially lies with a segment of population and not all Indians. For this segment of population a certain "happiness" is derived out of the bad situation that Pakistan seems to be in these days. Oddly enough this segment is comprised of mostly well to do people. I mean as you have pointed out the ordinary Indian(in India) do not care much about it. The obsession is so many more times magnified in an online world. Maybe because for each anti-Pakistan post on an Indian message board you will find an anti-India post on Pakistani message board. And even though this segment of population greatly dislikes Pakistan they are more than willing to read what Pakistanis have to say about them. In all it makes for a vicious circle that just keeps going and going and.... xxx

[yoda]

How can anyone like a country which waged an unprovoked war against us, as recently as just a few years ago?

[Guest dada_rocks]

How can anyone like a country which waged an unprovoked war against us' date=' as recently as just a few years ago?[/quote'] I too wonder .. The story of how average indians and pakistanis love each other has to be one of the most fictional tales ever.. These two sections steeped in mutual love apparently has been getting hoodwinked by few people with sinsiter design since last 60 years. Story doesn't end there even before independenc these two communities apparently got pitted against each other by vile british, again not their fault it was someone else who tricked them. Honestly this has to be one of a kind love-story where lovers are at each others throat constantly on one or another pretext of trigger from outside.... Azooba pyar hai..:giggle: You can see here the childish pattern in shrugging off responsibility for their own deeds..

[THX_1138]

And the reason why you beleive that they will let us live in peace if we mind our bussiness and not worry about them ... is ?

you seem to suggest that there is an alternative that is waiting for our initiative? what must be do? attack pakistan? destroy our economy, weaken our armed forces, invite an attack by the pissants up north? turn about and walk backwards on the path of economic development that took so long in coming? or maybe educate our lower classes, prevent farmers from committing suicide, fix the agricultural sector in chattisgargh, orrisa, and andhra and thus address the root cause of the naxalites and maoists?

[King Tendulkar]

Something I always wanted to ask, why draw parallel to Pakistan? India is a huge country and an economy that is booming. India is thought to be one of the super powers in the coming decades while Pakistan is a small country that has been hit hard economically. Pakistan is ruled by a dictator that has no clue where the country is heading. Now why the comparisons with Pakistan I don't quite understand? If the Pakistanis hate Indians that is their opinion and you cannot lose sleep over it. I think a lot of Indians are way too embroiled with this Pakistan obsession. You don't see China competing with say Hong Kong or Singapore. There is way too much obsession with Pakistan in particular online. Indians living in India seem to hardly care what goes on in Pakistan though. They have their lives to take care of and they are busy as. If one hates Indians you can't go around complaining, take it in the stride and move on.

How can we move on when they are launching terrorists attacks on a regular basis. THEY ARE KILLING INDIANS! Its simple when they stop killing us them we can ignore them. Please dont make me list all the islamic terrorist strikes which have killed indians over the years, which have been basically pak sponsored! They have launced wars against us which we have fought back and of course dismatled them! Paks are obssessed with inidans and have a major infiriority complex. And islamic ideolgy which proples them to fight the kaffars and kill the kaffars.

[sandtest]

Pakistan's role in terrorism has been confirmed by many third party independent organizations. Here is a brief commentary from US based, Rand Corporation (a non-profit group),about militancy in Kashmir and how it is sponsored by Pakis -- http://www.rand.org/commentary/090101JIR.html Over the past two years, increased attention has focused on Pakistan as a significant force behind the growth of Islamic radicalism and extremism in Kashmir. The US State Department's most recent report on Patterns of Global Terrorism, released in April 2001, specifically identifies Islamabad as the chief sponsor of militant groups fighting in the disputed Indo-Pakistani region. The same conclusion was reached in an earlier report by the National Commission on Terrorism and reflects current thinking in most US and Western policy-making and intelligence circles. There are currently five main groups fighting in Kashmir, all of which benefit from Pakistani support: - Hizb-ul-Mujahideen (HM); - Laskhar-e-Tayyiba (LeT); - al Badr; - Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM); and - Harakat-ul-Mujahideen (HuM). Sponsoring militancy in Kashmir is regarded as a relatively cheap and effective way of offsetting existing power symmetries (essentially through the philosophy of a 'war of a thousand cuts') while simultaneously creating a bulwark of instability along the country's vulnerable southern flank. Both are considered vital to ensuring that Pakistan has sufficient strategic depth to undertake a protracted conventional war on the sub-continent, should this ever become necessary. Religious imperatives also come into play, particularly on the part of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) Directorate, which enjoys a high degree of autonomy and executive space within Pakistan. The agency has specifically sought to replicate and transplant the success of the anti-Soviet Afghan campaign in Kashmir, exhorting foreign militants to participate in the conflict as part of the wider moral duty owed to the jihad. The medium to long-term aim, according to intelligence sources in New Delhi and Srinagar, is to trigger a generalised Islamic revolution across the northeast and eventually India as a whole. The nature of the support: Pakistani assistance to Kashmiri insurgents covers the ambit of training, logistical, financial and doctrinal support. At least 91 insurgent training camps have been identified in Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir (POK), the bulk of which lie contiguous to the Indian districts of Kupwara, Baramulla, Poonch, Rajauri and Jammu. Basic courses run for between three and four months, focusing on weapons handling, demolitions and urban sabotage. Training for the more able recruits lasts somewhat longer and typically emphasises additional, specialised skills in areas such as heavy arms, reconnaissance and sniper assaults. Responsibility for managing these courses falls to the ISI's Operations Branch and tends to be conducted through two sub-divisions: Joint Intelligence Miscellaneous (JIM) and Joint Intelligence North (JIN). Islamist-oriented military officers are also believed to periodically 'moonlight' from their regular duties to supplement ISI instructors and help provide critical training in the fundamentals of guerrilla/jungle warfare and escape and evasion techniques. Most of the camps are located near major military establishments (within 1-15km), which Indian intelligence maintains provide the bulk of military-related resources, including light weapons (assault rifles, carbines, pistols, machine guns, rocket-propelled grenades/boosters), ammunition, explosives, binoculars and night vision devices, communications equipment and uniforms. Financing the militants Apart from military backing, Pakistan plays an important role in financing Kashmiri insurgents. According to India's Research and Analysis Wing (RAW), annual ISI expenditure to the main militant organisations runs to between US$125 and $250 million a year. These funds are used to cover salaries for fighters (which run from 5,000 to 10,000 rupees a month), support to next of kin, cash incentives for high-risk operations and retainers for guides, porters and informers. In addition, the ISI helps to fund militant proxies through the circulation of counterfeit currency and by laundering profits derived from the heroin trade. The agency also handles foreign contributions and donations (most of which come from Saudi Arabia), funnelling these to Pakistani bank accounts that are opened under the auspices of insurgent political, religious or charitable fronts. Many of these payments are co-ordinated through Rahimyar Khan, a small town in the deserts of southern Punjab where every year thousands of wealthy Arabs come to hunt the region's wildlife. Ideological indoctrination Besides acting as a major source of military and financial assistance, Pakistan remains a pivotal centre of ideological indoctrination for the Kashmiri conflict, much of which is co-ordinated through the country's burgeoning network of theological madrasahs. Many of these schools equate the concept of the jihad - which most Islamic scholars interpret as 'striving for justice' - with guerrilla warfare and explicitly exhort their students to fulfil their 'spiritual obligations' by fighting in the name of the pan-Islamic cause. The total number of existing madrasahs in Pakistan is estimated at between 40,000 and 50,000. Of these, only about 4,350 are currently registered with the government. The most prominent extremist-oriented schools include the Dar-ul-Uloom Haqani at Akora Khattak; the Markaz-ad-Da'awa-wal-Irshad at Murdike; the Dar-ul-Loom at Pashtoonabad; the Dar ul-Iftah-ul-Irshad at Nazimabad; and the Ahle-Sunnat-wal Jammat at Rawalpindi. All of these madrasahs are associated with the most extreme sections of the Pakistani politico-religious lobby, such as the Jamiat e Ulema Islam (JUI), and retain close links with openly terroristic organisations. The Markaz-ad-Da'awa-wal-Irshad madrasah, for instance, constitutes the main recruiting base for the LeT, one of the most violent and feared groups presently fighting in Kashmir.

[coffee_rules]

you seem to suggest that there is an alternative that is waiting for our initiative? what must be do? attack pakistan? destroy our economy, weaken our armed forces, invite an attack by the pissants up north? turn about and walk backwards on the path of economic development that took so long in coming? or maybe educate our lower classes, prevent farmers from committing suicide, fix the agricultural sector in chattisgargh, orrisa, and andhra and thus address the root cause of the naxalites and maoists?

Yes, economic development and upliftment of the poor has to be primary. But we can't ignore and "move on by" an irritant, who keeps picking up fights just because his house is not in order. When the economic stabilty is affected by the acts of the same irritant, it becomes one of the primary issues to dwell as well. You can't go on "love thy neighbour" or do a "Jeet lo Dil" when he is hell bent on destroying peace and harmony in our house. We should never ever forget the Mumbai/Delhi/Hyd blasts. The people who died in these blasts were regular god-fearing people who were minding their own business. What cost do they pay for somebody's blind hatred.

[sandtest]

*bump* for Bongosamaj....a.k.a. CC1981:hysterical: