Sack the bowling Coach .

[Pagalpanti]

:hysterical: How typical - back then it was all "Remove venky - he's turning our pacers into line and length trundlers like he was" Now he is "good bowling coach"

[CG]

:hysterical: How typical - back then it was all "Remove venky - he's turning our pacers into line and length trundlers like he was" Now he is "good bowling coach"

I remember a thread where his sacking was condoned.

[bharat297]

I never condoned his sacking. In fact I thought the removal of him and robin Singh were mistakes and it was a typical Indian reaction to blame the coaches for the failure of the players. I think if we keep it simple and reward players for performance and when in doubt pick the best domestic players, we will be much better off rather than expecting coaches to fix the basics of players at international level.

[Texan]

This bloody motu and his chamchas have just been hogging butter chicken in India. Their bellies are growing by the day, but not the skills of the team. We should never allow tail-end batsmen to score so many runs against us. There is no thought process behind how to get these problems sorted out. Utter waste of money!

[express bowling]

Yes but players have the ultimate responsibility too. The images you showed were from back in 2008 when we had venkatesh as bowling coach. A year later we sacked him when our bowlers started performing poorly, as if the performance of the bowlers is the complete responsibility of the coach. Any decent grade cricket bowlers will know when their seam position is not right. They don't need a coach to come and "fix" it. A bowling coach can do the following: * drills to imzprove rhythm and release * provide advice / strategy against specific players as well as general bowling advice * run through video analysis Now I'm pretty sure just like venkatesh prasad, joe Dawes is doing the same thing. But he is not the one out there bowling 20+ overs a day. If that's still not working and Ishant one bowler is still bowling poorly, is it fair to blame that on the coach? Ultimately it's the players that have to take responsibility for improving their skills. A coach can only do so much.

I am not supporting Ishant Sharma. He is not a test grade bowler. But we are discussing bowling coaches in this thread. I had, in my first post in this thread ,merely pointed out the pluses and minuses of the bowling coach as I see it. Regarding a playing having to take responsibility, he has to but most experienced players have developed technical shortcomings within their career and more often than not an external perspective and aid is required to sort that out. I can think of numerous circumstances of even very good players developing flaws mid-career. Even a mature and responsible individual is not always able to sort out his own problems. We must understand that each individual connected with the team has his own responsibilities. The players and the support staff must put in a collective effort. All that being said I am not being over critical about Dawes. He has been with the team for a short time. The spinners have improved under him. But he could have been better with the pacers, both tactically as well as with making strategies. A good example of what a good bowling coach can do can be seen with Allan Donald. The bowlers were good to start with but under him there has been something extra. The strategies being tried by the bowling outfit have improved and the bowlers have lesser technical flaws.

[Crookbond]

Ashwin - Joe Dawes the bowling coach helped me rectify my issue with the delivery stride.

[bharat297]

I am not supporting Ishant Sharma. He is not a test grade bowler. But we are discussing bowling coaches in this thread. I had, in my first post in this thread ,merely pointed out the pluses and minuses of the bowling coach as I see it. Regarding a playing having to take responsibility, he has to but most experienced players have developed technical shortcomings within their career and more often than not an external perspective and aid is required to sort that out. I can think of numerous circumstances of even very good players developing flaws mid-career. Even a mature and responsible individual is not always able to sort out his own problems. We must understand that each individual connected with the team has his own responsibilities. The players and the support staff must put in a collective effort. All that being said I am not being over critical about Dawes. He has been with the team for a short time. The spinners have improved under him. But he could have been better with the pacers, both tactically as well as with making strategies. A good example of what a good bowling coach can do can be seen with Allan Donald. The bowlers were good to start with but under him there has been something extra. The strategies being tried by the bowling outfit have improved and the bowlers have lesser technical flaws.

Ok I get what you are trying to say but here is the flaw I see in the argument. The bowling coach is paid to do a lot of work with the bowlers behind the scenes, which as you said includes working on the technical aspects of bowling. We the fans don't get to see what goes on in preparation for the matches and we can't accurately comment on whether a coach is doing what he is paid to do or not. We can B.S. like some people on here like to do but we can't accurately say anything. We can only judge based on what we see out there in the match. Now, the problem is Ishant Sharma is the guy out there bowling in the actual match and the one that actually has to do the work. You could get the best bowling coach in the world but if you have a lazy cricketer then that doesn't mean much does it? (Not saying Ishant is lazy, it is just hypothetical but you don't actually know). Ishant's problems started in early-to-mid 2009. Now we have gone through 3 bowling coaches (Prasad, Simmons, and Dawes) and Ishant still has technical flaws in his bowling. Do you honestly think all 3 bowling coaches (who are paid to analyse bowlers day-in day-out) are missing something that most Indian fans can see? Or do you think it might be that Ishant Sharma needs to go away and work on things himself. I'm not anti-Ishant. I think at his best he can be a very good bowler but he hasn't been at his best for a long long time (he has shown glimpses but nothing threatening) and the administrators and selectors haven't realised that and instead quickly blamed the coaches as an easy scapegoat.

[express bowling]

Ok I get what you are trying to say but here is the flaw I see in the argument. The bowling coach is paid to do a lot of work with the bowlers behind the scenes, which as you said includes working on the technical aspects of bowling. We the fans don't get to see what goes on in preparation for the matches and we can't accurately comment on whether a coach is doing what he is paid to do or not. We can B.S. like some people on here like to do but we can't accurately say anything. We can only judge based on what we see out there in the match. Now, the problem is Ishant Sharma is the guy out there bowling in the actual match and the one that actually has to do the work. You could get the best bowling coach in the world but if you have a lazy cricketer then that doesn't mean much does it? (Not saying Ishant is lazy, it is just hypothetical but you don't actually know). Ishant's problems started in early-to-mid 2009. Now we have gone through 3 bowling coaches (Prasad, Simmons, and Dawes) and Ishant still has technical flaws in his bowling. Do you honestly think all 3 bowling coaches (who are paid to analyse bowlers day-in day-out) are missing something that most Indian fans can see? Or do you think it might be that Ishant Sharma needs to go away and work on things himself. I'm not anti-Ishant. think at his best he can be a very good bowler but he hasn't been at his best for a long long time (he has shown glimpses but nothing threatening) and the administrators and selectors haven't realised that and instead quickly blamed the coaches as an easy scapegoat.

I am not making Dawes a scapegoat. As I have said before, he has been here for a short time and there is only so much you could do. Also I have pointed out that the spinners have actually improved some technical aspects under him. Dexter has pointed out that Ashwin had said that Dawes has helped him. The spinners have put in more revs on the ball, more body in their bowling action and have mixed their spinners with the straighter quick balls. This has been an improvement and under him . While discussing someone objectively , you need to point out both the pluses and minuses and Ishant's case is one such point. The strategies followed by the pacers in the subcontinent and the ODIs have not been up to the mark. Regarding we not knowing the work being put behind the scene, I have never said that the bowling coach is not putting in effort. But the question of ability is also there. It is possible that he does not know what the players should do optimally in the subcontinent as he has limited experience here. In the end it is the end result that matters. In conclusion, Dawes has been a mixed bag . Let us give him more time and hope that the selectors are smarter about selecting better pacers.

[CG]

Ashwin - Joe Dawes the bowling coach helped me rectify my issue with the delivery stride.

No he did not say that he praised his local coach for that then he added duncan and dawes gave him a good kick in the backside and it was good for him.

[bharat297]

I am not making Dawes a scapegoat. As I have said before, he has been here for a short time and there is only so much you could do. Also I have pointed out that the spinners have actually improved some technical aspects under him. Dexter has pointed out that Ashwin had said that Dawes has helped him. The spinners have put in more revs on the ball, more body in their bowling action and have mixed their spinners with the straighter quick balls. This has been an improvement and under him . While discussing someone objectively , you need to point out both the pluses and minuses and Ishant's case is one such point. The strategies followed by the pacers in the subcontinent and the ODIs have not been up to the mark. Regarding we not knowing the work being put behind the scene, I have never said that the bowling coach is not putting in effort. But the question of ability is also there. It is possible that he does not know what the players should do optimally in the subcontinent as he has limited experience here. In the end it is the end result that matters. In conclusion, Dawes has been a mixed bag . Let us give him more time and hope that the selectors are smarter about selecting better pacers.

Exactly! But the OP says otherwise. The result matters but it's the players that control the result. Since Dawes has come on board Ishant hasn't improved, but we've unearthed Bhuvaneshwar and Shami. Unfair to blame Ishant's problems purely on Dawes. Remember that strategy is ultimately up to the player and captain. A player should himself have a plan for how to get the batsman out and not rely on a coach to tell them what their strategy should be. They can give advice but a player needs to be able to figure that stuff out on their own.

[CG]

Exactly! But the OP says otherwise. The result matters but it's the players that control the result. Since Dawes has come on board Ishant hasn't improved, but we've unearthed Bhuvaneshwar and Shami. Unfair to blame Ishant's problems purely on Dawes. Remember that strategy is ultimately up to the player and captain. A player should himself have a plan for how to get the batsman out and not rely on a coach to tell them what their strategy should be. They can give advice but a player needs to be able to figure that stuff out on their own.

Have we unearthed shami and bhuvi due to coahcing staff.

[Crookbond]

No he did not say that he praised his local coach for that then he added duncan and dawes gave him a good kick in the backside and it was good for him.

Repeating exact words - "Actually my delivery stride was too long, during the 4 Test match series against England it got worse and worse because I obviously wanted to extract more it started going haywire so had to sit back and go through the videos. I was quite lucky to have a coach, it was identified pretty quickly and there was very little time. I had to fly him to Corporate Trophy and all. We did quite a good job and all credit has to go to him and of course to Duncan Fletcher & Joe Dawes who also did pretty well with what I needed to do because I definitely needed a kick on my backside and they did give that one." He also praised Fletcher & Dawes for working with him to "what he needed to do with his long delivery stride".

[CG]

Repeating exact words - "Actually my delivery stride was too long' date= during the 4 Test match series against England it got worse and worse because I obviously wanted to extract more it started going haywire so had to sit back and go through the videos. I was quite lucky to have a coach, it was identified pretty quickly and there was very little time. I had to fly him to Corporate Trophy and all. We did quite a good job and all credit has to go to him and of course to Duncan Fletcher & Joe Dawes who also did pretty well with what I needed to do because I definitely needed a kick on my backside and they did give that one." He also praised Fletcher & Dawes for working with him to "what he needed to do with his long delivery stride".

Offcourse he had to say something about them ,otherwise it would look bad.I do not think he meant his delivery stride ,It was more in genral a afterthought.In the interview he has clearly mentioned his coach.