Is there a more horrific crime?

[Brainfade]

Yes, wars have killed millions of people. Crazy, sociopathic gun nuts like Adam Lanza have shot down innocent children. Evil men have raped many, many women. All horrific crimes. This crime - one that chillingly, deliberately, willingly kills absolutely defenseless, innocent babies (the NYT calls them viable fetuses) for years and years, using a pair of scissors to puncture their spines after they were born alive following botched abortions - evokes the strongest emotion in me. If there ever was a case **for** the death penalty .... http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/19/us/philadelphia-abortion-doctors-murder-trial-opens.html

PHILADELPHIA — In opening statements in court on Monday, prosecutors charged that a doctor who operated a women’s health clinic here killed seven viable fetuses by plunging scissors into their necks and “snipping†their spinal cords and was also responsible for the death of a pregnant woman in his care. Enlarge This Image Yong Kim/Philadelphia Daily News, via Associated Press Dr. Kermit Gosnell, 72, is being tried in Philadelphia in the deaths of seven fetuses. Related Squalid Abortion Clinic Escaped State Oversight (January 23, 2011) National Twitter Logo. Connect With Us on Twitter Follow @NYTNational for breaking news and headlines. Twitter List: Reporters and Editors The physician, Dr. Kermit Gosnell, 72, is charged with seven counts of first-degree murder as well as multiple counts of conspiracy, criminal solicitation and violation of a state law that forbids abortions after the 24th week of pregnancy. Dr. Gosnell had operated the Women’s Medical Society in West Philadelphia. More than two years after he was arrested and the clinic was shut down, and 14 months after a grand jury report described the charges against him, Dr. Gosnell appeared in Common Pleas Court on Monday to face a trial that could result in the death penalty if he is found guilty. His lawyer, Jack J. McMahon, described Dr. Gosnell as dedicated to treating the poor and accused prosecutors of racism — “a prosecutorial lynching†of his client, who is black. “It’s an elitist, racist prosecution,†Mr. McMahon said. “This black man is being taken because of who he is and where he works.†One of the prosecutors, Joanne Pescatore, an assistant district attorney, told the court that Dr. Gosnell routinely performed illegal late-term abortions, killing the seven fetuses in operations that would have caused the infants pain. “If the baby is alive and you don’t want it to be, that doesn’t mean you have the right to take a pair of scissors and plunge it into the baby’s neck,†Ms. Pescatore told the jury during opening arguments of a trial that is expected to continue for four to six weeks. She also accused Dr. Gosnell of falsifying clinic records to show that no abortions had been performed beyond the legal limit of 24.5 weeks of pregnancy, and of storing fetal remains throughout the clinic, including 20 to 30 jars containing only their feet. “Disturbing: that’s an understatement,†Ms. Pescatore said as Dr. Gosnell, wearing a dark suit and taking notes on a yellow legal pad, listened from the defense table. “Was he keeping trophies for what he had done?†Prosecutors have also accused nine of Dr. Gosnell’s staff members with violating abortion laws, perjury and other charges. All but one — including the doctor’s wife, Pearl Gosnell — have pleaded guilty. Ms. Pescatore said that Dr. Gosnell had performed many abortions in unsafe and unsanitary conditions, including using unqualified assistants. She said that as a result of financial motivations, the clinic had taken in many women who were beyond the legal abortion limit in their pregnancy. “If they were far along, that didn’t matter,†Ms. Pescatore said. “They made more money for him.†Among the patients was Karnamaya Mongar, a 41-year-old Bhutanese woman with three children, who had gone to Dr. Gosnell seeking an abortion in her 19th week of pregnancy, four months after arriving in the United States from a refugee camp in Nepal. Dr. Gosnell’s staff gave Ms. Mongar a painkilling drug during her labor, Ms. Pescatore said, but the patient reacted badly and died after being taken to a nearby hospital. The prosecutor blamed the doctor for the death. Mr. McMahon said the prosecution was trying to manipulate the jury’s emotions by leveling charges that he said would not be supported by the facts during the trial. The defense lawyer said that there was scientific evidence on the viability of only two of the seven fetuses Dr. Gosnell is accused of killing, and that claims that the other five were viable were based on verbal reports by clinic staff members that the fetuses had been moving after they were aborted. In fact, neither of the two fetuses was born alive, Mr. McMahon said. He promised jurors that assertion would be confirmed by the mother of “Baby A,†who is to testify during the trial. As for “Baby B,†he said, post-mortem tests on its lungs showed that they were never aerated, indicating that the child was born dead. Rebutting prosecution claims that Dr. Gosnell was profiting from the desperation of poor women, Mr. McMahon said his client had passed up lucrative positions in obstetrics and gynecology so that he could provide an essential service in West Philadelphia, where he performed more than 16,000 abortions over 31 years.

[Crookbond]

I read the article and it maintains a neutral tone.

[Brainfade]

I read the article and it maintains a neutral tone.

Agreed. The main objective was to discuss the outrageous crime itself.

[The Outsider]

Any abortion after 12 weeks or so should be made illegal. If I understood the article correctly these were babies who could have survived outside the mother's womb at the point they were aborted - that's absolutely outrageous and I am pretty sure that the courts will try him for murder in addition to illegal abortions or at least they should.

[coffee_rules]

To each his own. If you are asking us to rate how horrific this crime is compared to other ones. I would go for: 1. wars waged with no strong evidence of wmd 2. Shooting innocent children/adults 3. cold blooded serial killers 4. this one. certainly his licence should be cancelled and he should be behind bars for life. But no death penalty compared to top three. But if jury wants to sentence him for death, I wouldn't cringe.

[Brainfade]

To each his own. If you are asking us to rate how horrific this crime is compared to other ones. I would go for: 1. wars waged with no strong evidence of wmd 2. Shooting innocent children/adults 3. cold blooded serial killers 4. this one. certainly his licence should be cancelled and he should be behind bars for life. But no death penalty compared to top three. But if jury wants to sentence him for death, I wouldn't cringe.

This was not a call to "rank" these crimes. Like I said in the original post, this crime evokes stronger emotions in me because of the complete helplessless, innocence, defenselessnes and abandonment of a newborn child. When committed willingly (in full sanity) by a parent and a doctor - both of whom have an obligation to protect the life of the child - the act becomes even more despicable. Like "Bye Bye Madrasis" (aka Outsider aka L'Etranger) said above, even pro-abortionists find it absolutely disgusting.

[Brainfade]

Any abortion after 12 weeks or so should be made illegal. If I understood the article correctly these were babies who could have survived outside the mother's womb at the point they were aborted - that's absolutely outrageous and I am pretty sure that the courts will try him for murder in addition to illegal abortions or at least they should.

with exceptions for life of the mother. It is a horrible choice to have to make, but one has to make it.

[The Outsider]

with exceptions for life of the mother. It is a horrible choice to have to make' date= but one has to make it.

Yeah, that was kind of an implicit assumption in my post. Slightly off topic and I know that you are of the view that life begins at conception, but given your background and the fact that you would be interacting with a lot of Biology people in your work, what's the consensus among researchers or is there even one? How is life defined in the community from a scientific perspective - is it conception, determination of sex, or the ability of the foetus to survive in the absence of the mother's womb?

[ganeshran]

Beyond 20 weeks abortion is illegal unless the mother's health is in danger. so this case has no bearing on the larger pro-life/pro-choice debate because the actions of the doctor in question were anyway illegal. It should be seen exactly as what it is - a horrific murder. However knowing conservatives and their general tendency to straw man the abortion debate, I wouldnt be surprised to see this case being often reused in debating the right of a woman to abort her fetuses within the stipulated legal time limit

[Desi Cartman]

Taking out an alive baby who is making screeching noises and has undeveloped eye sockets is so freaking scary but that's doctors and to an extent parents fault. I don't think any sane person is in favor of late abortions but when some chutias start taking about life beginning at the time of conception, people become defensive. There are idiots who say abortion shouldn't be an option for even minor rape victims.

[Desi Cartman]

Beyond 20 weeks abortion is illegal unless the mother's health is in danger. so this case has no bearing on the larger pro-life/pro-choice debate because the actions of the doctor in question were anyway illegal. It should be seen exactly as what it is - a horrific murder. However knowing conservatives and their general tendency to straw man the abortion debate, I wouldnt be surprised to see this case being often reused in debating the right of a woman to abort her fetuses within the stipulated legal time limit

Mr Sean Hannity already mentioned this last week on his radio program, that's why I know about it. When I heard him, I also believed that what the doctor did was inhumane but legal. That's what they suggested on the radio, I guess

[ganeshran]

Mr Sean Hannity already mentioned this last week on his radio program' date=' that's why I know about it. When I heard him, I also believed that what the doctor did was inhumane but legal. That's what they suggested on the radio, I guess[/quote'] The abortion was done after the 24.5 weeks limit so it was illegal, hence the enforcement part has to be improved and not the law itself. The reason conservatives want to prove the abortion was legal is that they can use it as a talking point in the pro life/choice political debate. It is their age old tactic of portraying such horrific cases as the norm rather than the exception in order to demonize abortion when it is a perfectly safe process before the stipulated time limit of 20 weeks and the fetus is not viable.

[coffee_rules]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/23/17879826-judge-drops-3-murder-charges-against-abortion-doctor-kermit-gosnell?lite Judge drops 3 murder charges against abortion doctor Kermit Gosnell

It took the prosecution five weeks to present their case against West Philly abortion doctor Kermit Gosnell and it took defense attorney Jack McMahon a couple of hours to knock a big hole through a critical part of their argument. Three first-degree murder charges were dropped against Gosnell after McMahon argued that "there is not one piece...of objective, scientific evidence that anyone was born alive" at Gosnell's clinic. Prosecutors have argued that the babies were viable and that Gosnell and his staff cut them in the back of the neck to kill them. ... Gosnell, 72, still faces five remaining murder charges and the possibility of the death penalty if convicted of any of the first-degree cases.

[Brainfade]

Yeah, that was kind of an implicit assumption in my post. Slightly off topic and I know that you are of the view that life begins at conception, but given your background and the fact that you would be interacting with a lot of Biology people in your work, what's the consensus among researchers or is there even one? How is life defined in the community from a scientific perspective - is it conception, determination of sex, or the ability of the foetus to survive in the absence of the mother's womb?

The standard embryology textbook - Langman's Embryology - states this: The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote To me, the key term is "new organism," which essentially means "another individual." It is the very first genetically distinct entity whose default destiny is to grow into an adult human being. Not the egg (oocyte), not the sperm (spermatozoon), not any other cell in our bodies. I don't believe there is an official consensus among biologists. As diverse as biology is - spanning ecology to embryology and everything in between - there is not even a cohesive group that provides such consensus statements. But, as a trained molecular biologist/biochemist with a solid foundation in genetics, I find the embryological definition scientifically unambiguous. Like most of you, I was a pro-abortionist until I picked up an embryology textbook as a reference for a graduate school project (comparing plant embryonic development with human embryonic development). Reading it changed my view 180 deg.