Swing_n_Speed Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 No' date=' I am grounded in reality when I make that kind of a statement. Except for fringe fundoo elements, Indian Muslims have never identified themselves with global Islam or Ummah. Even Gandhi found that out the hard way when his Khilaafat movement flopped.[/quote'] Fair Enough. I have Muslim friends too, and I hope you're analogy is correct. Let's recap now:- 1. I stated that Islam can be used a political tool. 2. You asked how 3. I explained 3. You said this is not relevant to India (Well I doubt Muslims in India practice a separate form of Islam. At this point let's agree that Islam has provisions for political activism) 4. I called you naive 5.You countered with 'No, I am grounded in reality when I make that kind of a statement. Except for fringe fundoo elements, Indian Muslims have never identified themselves with global Islam or Ummah.' Cool. You see I fully sympathize with Muslims complaining that they are being persecuted against because of their religion. That is indeed wrong! As individuals no one must be troubled because of his/her religion. I have heard stories of how Muslims living around Babri Masjid suffered during the riots. That was indeed despicable. But by the same token political activism in the name of Islam or political activism merely for religious purposes is something we all need to be wary off. And from looking at events world over I think we can all deduce the path political Islam leads too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 ur point of view' date='i respect..what about the local candidate of a constituency standing in the GE,irrespective of party or the leader of his party,if the candidate does a good job in his constituency ,he deserves the votes of the public and deserves recognition no based on his work on the ground issues no?[/quote'] Yes, and that's been my thinking for a long time. No party in India has a moral superiority over the others, so people should vote based on the local candidate rather than on party lines. Yes. Ideally, Jairam Ramesh from Congress and Sushma Swaraj from BJP. I would vote for Sushma Swaraj. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Fair Enough. I have Muslim friends too, and I hope you're analogy is correct. Let's recap now:- 1. I stated that Islam can be used a political tool. 2. You asked how 3. I explained 3. You said this is not relevant to India (Well I doubt Muslims in India practice a separate form of Islam. At this point let's agree that Islam has provisions for political activism) 4. I called you naive 5.You countered with 'No, I am grounded in reality when I make that kind of a statement. Except for fringe fundoo elements, Indian Muslims have never identified themselves with global Islam or Ummah.' Cool. You see I fully sympathize with Muslims complaining that they are being persecuted against because of their religion. That is indeed wrong! As individuals no one must be troubled because of his/her religion. I have heard stories of how Muslims living around Babri Masjid suffered during the riots. That was indeed despicable. But by the same token political activism in the name of Islam or political activism merely for religious purposes is something we all need to be wary off. Fair summary, but where you have missed the point is that the vast majority of Muslims in India don't give a feck about all this - at a rough estimate more than 90%. They are bothered about where the next meal will come from, which school should the children be sent to etc. etc. pretty much like the vast majority of Hindus or any other community. I agree political activism in the name of religion is wrong, but my point is that in the Indian context it's largely irrelevant for Muslims. You don't see Muslims going out and voting for Muslim League etc. If that was happening I would be concerned and have shared your paranoia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Yes' date=' and that's been my thinking for a long time. No party in India has a moral superiority over the others, [b']so people should vote based on the local candidate rather than on party lines. I think that's as simple as it gets really - everyone should vote for the best candidate in their area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulbul Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Fair summary, but where you have missed the point is that the vast majority of Muslims in India don't give a feck about all this - at a rough estimate more than 90%. They are bothered about where the next meal will come from, which school should the children be sent to etc. etc. pretty much like the vast majority of Hindus or any other community. I agree political activism in the name of religion is wrong, but my point is that in the Indian context it's largely irrelevant for Muslims. You don't see Muslims going out and voting for Muslim League etc. If that was happening I would be concerned and have shared your paranoia. Muslims do vote Muslim league in Hyderbad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Muslims do vote Muslim league in Hyderbad. Yeah, and how many seats does Muslim League have in the Lok Sabha? And what is the maximum number of seats they have ever had? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulbul Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Yes' date=' and that's been my thinking for a long time. No party in India has a moral superiority over the others, so people should vote based on the local candidate rather than on party lines. [/quote'] Thats what i also want.Problem is with non stop propaganda to say if BJP comes to power thats end of Muslims in India. Is this about people who directly involved? What about people who supported these criminals? BJP won't win even 90 seats if Sushma was projected as a leader / same goes to Ramesh [i know its your personal opinion] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adi B Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Thats what i also want.Problem is with non stop propaganda to say if BJP comes to power thats end of Muslims in India. not bjp,some believe modi..unusually advani is acceptable to many seculars(having ephemeral memory) now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Thats what i also want.Problem is with non stop propaganda to say if BJP comes to power thats end of Muslims in India. Not if BJP comes to power with someone like Jaitley or Sushma Swaraj - yeah I know they've also made some controversial statements in the past but they are not certified lunatics like Modi. If Modi comes to power then Muslims in India will face a tough time - I have little doubt on that. Is this about people who directly involved? What about people who supported these criminals? People supporting criminals are culpable as well. BJP won't win even 90 seats if Sushma was projected as a leader / same goes to Ramesh [i know its your personal opinion] I think BJP are missing out on Sushma Swaraj's ability to speak and mobilize people. Look at her Lok Sabha election record - she has absolutely thrashed everyone in elections, except the one time where she was pitched against Sonia Gandhi in Karnataka on a 4 week notice. Even then she put up a good fight. She might not come across as the typical "mass leader", but her oratory certainly is a big selling point which the BJP is not utilizing in the fear of her getting more power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 not bjp' date='some believe modi..unusually [b']advani is acceptable to many seculars(having ephemeral memory) now Not to me. Both are out of bounds for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 I find it strange that BJP don't see Sushma Swaraj as a candidate - very strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adi B Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Not to me. Both are out of bounds for me. not u,but many media pundits who changed their tunes when advani submitted his resignation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FischerTal Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 not u' date='but many media pundits who changed their tunes when advani submitted his resignation[/quote'] i remember a lifelong atheist commie from the hindu started praising advani recently when Modi was announced to be BJP Poll Panel chief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adi B Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 I find it strange that BJP don't see Sushma Swaraj as a candidate - very strange. maybe because she aint the best pracharak but bjp defo should have given sushma swaraj and jaitley more electoral responsibility Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 maybe because she aint the best pracharak but bjp defo should have given sushma swaraj and jaitley more electoral responsibility I'll differ on that. She has the best oratory skills of any top level politician around, yeah much better than Modi. Yeah, she does not have an internet cult following like Modi does, but her record in elections is impeccable which means she is able to connect to voters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crookbond Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 maybe because she aint the best pracharak but bjp defo should have given sushma swaraj and jaitley more electoral responsibility Both of them look great for the BJP - I find it really strange that they aren't anywhere near the helm. I think they themselves do not want to take the lead and are just cabinet position aspirants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulbul Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Yeah' date=' and how many seats does Muslim League have in the Lok Sabha? And what is the maximum number of seats they have ever had?[/quote'] More than numbers what kind of people they elect is what matters. Here they vote purely based on religion rather than anyhting else. Same in Kashmir. [not Jammu] As someone yesterday posted,you need 30-40% of population to get a particular candidate to win on religious based vote. In rest of the country minorities may not dictate the winning possibilities but in many places its crucial for win.in Lot of places MP/MLA win by few thousnad votes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulbul Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 not bjp' date='some believe modi..unusually advani is acceptable to many seculars(having ephemeral memory) now[/quote'] Using Modi's name they will target BJP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger80 Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 No major player of the '84 riots is in active politics - Advani and Modi are very much so. Yeah Kamalnath has just resigned And yes no major player of 84 in politics because they either died or never named.The real culprits were Rajiv or Narsimha Rao not Tytlet or Sajjan kumar.Kumar and Tytler were mere pawns. Modi is as guilty of 2002 riots as Rao or Rajiv or some senior leaders of congress.It was assumption against Modi that he delayed action.The same allegation was against many for 1984 riots, but none of them are considered as guilty as Modi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulbul Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 I think BJP are missing out on Sushma Swaraj's ability to speak and mobilize people. Look at her Lok Sabha election record - she has absolutely thrashed everyone in elections' date=' [b']except the one time where she was pitched against Sonia Gandhi in Karnataka on a 4 week notice. Even then she put up a good fight. She might not come across as the typical "mass leader", but her oratory certainly is a big selling point which the BJP is not utilizing in the fear of her getting more power. I think you are being sarcastic here [Apologies if not] Sushma gave fight mainly because of Bellary Reddy brothers ,they are too powerful at that time. At best BJP can use her as a 2nd leader after Modi , but rigth now Modi is the only hope for BJP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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