Era of Fast bowling over?

[G_B_]

But Zaheer to Holding is hardly an apple to apple comparison. Either compare Zaheer to someone like Kapil or Holding with someone like Lee or Akhtar.

should we compare Holding to Steyn ? Is that a fair comparison?

[The Outsider]

should we compare Holding to Steyn ? Is that a fair comparison?

Not really. Steyn isn't consistently as quick as Holding and furthermore is nowhere close to done with his career. Holding's equivalents in the modern game would be Lee, Akhtar, Bond.

[G_B_]

ok now lets look at say somebody like Steven finn who most will agree is an bowler who is in the 90mph bracket most of the times. He has bowled nearly 20,000 balls in a career spanning about 6 years is 24. Well on his way barring some sort of horrible injury (which might happen) to easily take over the number of balls bowled by Holding. Already is bowling more balls per year than somebody like Holding.

[The Outsider]

Yaar chhodo 80s ko, talk about Akram who we have all seen. He bowled 80,000+ deliveries in his career. Even an injury plagued Waqar bowled 60,000 deliveries.

[The Outsider]

ok now lets look at say somebody like Steven finn who most will agree is an bowler who is in the 90mph bracket most of the times. He has bowled nearly 20,000 balls in a career spanning about 6 years is 24. Well on his way barring some sort of horrible injury (which might happen) to easily take over the number of balls bowled by Holding. Already is bowling more balls per year than somebody like Holding.

Finn is nowhere as quick as Holding on a consistent basis - yeah he can put in the odd express spell. If you want to compare Finn, perhaps someone like Akram would be a benchmark.

[srij]

7VEut5AtBgs If this is not 90 mph then I am a chinaman.

distance between the wicket and bowling crease.?

[G_B_]

and btw I knew that I had this debate before a few years back on another forum. As per the Worlds Fastest Bowlers Competition 1979 , I dont see many bowlers (barring Thompson) bowling an average speed of 140 in this event. Each got 8 balls. So they were trying their fastest for a really short period of time. From what i know the methods used in this is more accurate than speed guns we had at the ground. (being more of a lab set up)

The greatest fast bowlers the world has ever seen gathered in Australia in 1979 to compete in speeds and accuracy competition. Hosted by Richie Benaud, the bowlers included Imran Khan, Sarfraz Nawaz, Dennis Lillee, Michael Holding, Jeff Thompson, Andy Roberts, Richard Hadlee, Colin Croft and

bPDW7hj1yfs So its fair to say that the pacers of the past were certainly not in the Lee Akther bracket barring Thompson.

[The Outsider]

Here is a compilation of Imran in county cricket - I see no evidence to think he is being a show-pony. EXzkVek9UKo

[The Outsider]

and btw I knew that I had this debate before a few years back on another forum. As per the Worlds Fastest Bowlers Competition 1976 , I dont see many bowlers (barring Thompson) bowling an average speed of 140 in this event. Each got 8 balls. So they were trying their fastest for a really short period of time. From what i know the methods used in this is more accurate than speed guns we had at the ground. (being more of a lab set up) bPDW7hj1yfs So its fair to say that the pacers of the past were certainly not in the Lee Akther bracket barring Thompson.

Are the same speed guns and methodology being used to measure current bowlers? No. Even today, speeds don't match up between one channel to another and you expect me to take the speeds from 30+ years back measured on a completely different technology seriously? They can at best offer a relative comparison among the bowlers of that time.

[G_B_]

Are the same speed guns and methodology being used to measure current bowlers? No. Even today, speeds don't match up between one channel to another and you expect me to take the speeds from 30+ years back measured on a completely different technology seriously? They can at best offer a relative comparison among the bowlers of that time.

yes but they had warm ups + 8 balls. In match situations you think can will be able to go for broke when they have to bowl 15-20 overs in a day? (or 12 for ODIS) Surely whatever inaccuracy, it must be mitigated by the fact that these guys were measured only over a short span with plenty of time between each delivery? If anything the odds were in their favour of boosting their pace. I am sure most channels have a similar average speed of a bowler. Yes there will be anomalies with bowlers deliberately bowling slower balls. But the average speed will certainly be more accurate as its taking a lot of readings.

[The Outsider]

yes but they had warm ups + 8 balls. In match situations you think can will be able to go for broke when they have to bowl 15-20 overs in a day? (or 12 for ODIS) Surely whatever inaccuracy, it must be mitigated by the fact that these guys were measured only over a short span with plenty of time between each delivery? If anything the odds were in their favour of boosting their pace. I am sure most channels have a similar average speed of a bowler. Yes there will be anomalies with bowlers deliberately bowling slower balls. But the average speed will certainly be more accurate as its taking a lot of readings.

Uff ho! If the calibration is different in two instruments you will consistently get different results irrespective of the circumstances. And no, you can check up past posts on ICF when one channel was recording consistently higher/lower speeds than another for the same deliveries in the same match.

[G_B_]

Uff ho! If the calibration is different in two instruments you will consistently get different results irrespective of the circumstances. And no, you can check up past posts on ICF when one channel was recording consistently higher/lower speeds than another for the same deliveries in the same match.

So what would you rely on? Personal judgement? How can you say somebody is faster or slower for an average duration of the match? I am sure that the likes of Imran holding etc had bursts of bowling 90 plus. I dont think they kept it up for their careers or could maintain it for long period of time. They did not even bother with that when they bowled in the counties. Most games were not televised so they just went through the motions cause their accuracy was enough to get rid of the opposition. You had a big bust up at Somerset when Roebuck basically chucked out a WI great bowler for not trying hard enough. What happened is that batsman back then had crappy protection. So they were half scared of the bowlers bowling at 85 and above. I doubt holding would get the whispering death today.

[The Outsider]

So what would you rely on? Personal judgement? How can you say somebody is faster or slower for an average duration of the match? I am sure that the likes of Imran holding etc had bursts of bowling 90 plus. I dont think they kept it up for their careers or could maintain it for long period of time. They did not even bother with that when they bowled in the counties. Most games were not televised so they just went through the motions cause their accuracy was enough to get rid of the opposition. You had a big bust up at Somerset when Roebuck basically chucked out many of the WI great bowlers for not trying hard enough. What happened is that batsman back then had crappy protection. So they were half scared of the bowlers bowling at 85 and above. I doubt holding would get the whispering death today.

I am talking not only on the basis of my judgment, but more importantly the judgment of cricketers who actually faced them and either faced the next generation of fast bowlers or saw them up close. What I am highly skeptical about is teleportation of technology to measure speeds when they don't even match up even in the same match across different channels.

[G_B_]

I am talking not only on the basis of my judgment' date=' but more importantly the judgment of cricketers who actually faced them and either faced the next generation of fast bowlers or saw them up close. What I am highly skeptical about is teleportation of technology to measure speeds when they don't even match up even in the same match across different channels.[/quote'] Thats the thing about judgements though. They can get clouded by many things. As i have mentioned before, protection in the 70s and 80s was not ideal for the batsman. It might have been a mental thing.You were probably **** scared of being hit on the face. There is also an issue of confirmation bias. Most of us remember our school days/childhood and our era with fondness compared to say other eras. Each player will always remember his era with fondness. I personally dont believe simply in judgements in this case. Also another question. Forget about technology used for measurement such as cameras etc. Which is the better methodology. Using cameras in a live match real time. Or making them bowl in a net in a lab like situation where everything can be monitored closely with the focus specifically on the bowlers and their speeds?

[CG]

I remember ian chappell saying imran khan was a medium pacer but he became as quick as anybody after he remodelled his action .Imran was quick for a period so were many bowlers .

[Crookbond]

Thats the thing about judgements though. They can get clouded by many things. As i have mentioned before, protection in the 70s and 80s was not ideal for the batsman. It might have been a mental thing.You were probably **** scared of being hit on the face. There is also an issue of confirmation bias. Most of us remember our school days/childhood and our era with fondness compared to say other eras. Each player will always remember his era with fondness. I personally dont believe simply in judgements in this case. Also another question. Forget about technology used for measurement such as cameras etc. Which is the better methodology. Using cameras in a live match real time. Or making them bowl in a net in a lab like situation where everything can be monitored closely with the focus specifically on the bowlers and their speeds?

One person calling X be skeptical, two people calling X fast be skeptical but 90 percentile of the people calling X is a no brainer. Holding, Marshall, Garner et al fall into that bracket.

[The Outsider]

Thats the thing about judgements though. They can get clouded by many things. As i have mentioned before, protection in the 70s and 80s was not ideal for the batsman. It might have been a mental thing.You were probably **** scared of being hit on the face. There is also an issue of confirmation bias. Most of us remember our school days/childhood and our era with fondness compared to say other eras. Each player will always remember his era with fondness. I personally dont believe simply in judgements in this case.

Why would they be clouded if the same batsman faced Akram and Holding and concluded that Holding was quicker, and Akram's speeds have been measured? Why would an Indian batsman big up Holding's pace vis a vis Akram?

Also another question. Forget about technology used for measurement such as cameras etc. Which is the better methodology. Using cameras in a live match real time. Or making them bowl in a net in a lab like situation where everything can be monitored closely with the focus specifically on the bowlers and their speeds?

Obviously the one being used in live matches is better, if you can convince me that the calibration and technology was the same otherwise.

[G_B_]

Why would they be clouded if the same batsman faced Akram and Holding and concluded that Holding was quicker' date=' and Akram's speeds have been measured? [b']Why would an Indian batsman big up Holding's pace vis a vis Akram? Obviously the one being used in live matches is better, if you can convince me that the calibration and technology was the same otherwise.

Surely that evident due to the rivalry. So many times i have seen Pakistani bowlers claim Lara was the best as it was their opinion. Always felt it was rivalry at its core. Look at Ponting, statistically Sachin has won more tests than Lara. Yet he felt Lara was harder to set fields to and was a better batsman. Its his opinion and he is entitled to it. Maybe Holding having played in world series cricket was now mates with a lot of great batsman in the era while Wasim was an upstart by the time Holding was winding down his career. Surely you dont want to upset your mate? I personally prefer technology in this aspect. I also feel that you can get a fairer test than getting bowlers together and having a focus on speeds. @DM nobody is arguing they were not quick. But i dont buy they were in the Lee or Akther bracket quick . Thompson yes. Even the the 1979 test he was head and shoulders above everybody else. Now regardless of calibration of actual speed bowled the conditions were same for everybody there. In that group Imran and Lillee come across as medium pacers with their average speed. Which sort of makes sense as Lee has bowled the same number of balls (in the ball park) as Thompson (or about over a similar career span in number of years)

[Crookbond]

@DM nobody is arguing they were not quick. But i dont buy they were in the Lee or Akther bracket quick . Thompson yes. Even the the 1979 test he was head and shoulders above everybody else. Now regardless of calibration of actual speed bowled the conditions were same for everybody there. In that group Imran and Lillee come across as medium pacers with their average speed. Which sort of makes sense as Lee has bowled the same number of balls (in the ball park) as Thompson (or about over a similar career span in number of years)

The problem is that you are taking the number from the 1979 Test literally. If the number for Thompson was higher (assuming the speed guns were faulty), Lillee and Imran would be slower than Thompson but still 85+ mph bowlers. In order to compare two tests, there needs to be common ground - there is none in this regard and therefore, you have to rely on players who have seen/played two eras.

[The Outsider]

Surely that evident due to the rivalry. So many times i have seen Pakistani bowlers claim Lara was the best as it was their opinion. Always felt it was rivalry at its core. Look at Ponting, statistically Sachin has won more tests than Lara. Yet he felt Lara was harder to set fields to and was a better batsman. Its his opinion and he is entitled to it. Maybe Holding having played in world series cricket was now mates with a lot of great batsman in the era while Wasim was an upstart by the time Holding was winding down his career. Surely you dont want to upset your mate? I personally prefer technology in this aspect. I also feel that you can get a fairer test than getting bowlers together and having a focus on speeds.

If Gavaskar, Chappell, Richards et al. are telling me that Holding was really quick, I would take their word even if the speed gun was showing a reading of 100 kmph.