Frankly reply all senior haters

[The Outsider]

Shwetabh, ofcourse that period cost us badly, but rarely in a mammoth run chase will the team batting second will have it easy all through.

I am not asking for any fireworks or 7-8 RPO periods. Just normal 5-6 RPO milking between the 36th and 42nd over which any team having any ambitions of winning an ODI should be able to do. While either of our openers were in the middle we were well ahead of where Australia were at that stage.

[Bumper]

The one thing i definitely blame Ganguly for is - His SR seems to be the same the same irrespective of the target. Even if we chase 220 against Ireland , he scored 70 odd at a SR of 75 and even if we are chasing 320 , his SR is still 75. That simply not acceptable. When you do that, you really put the numbers against the favor of the incoming batsman. They have to essentially do a LOT ( chase when reqd RR is 10) without losing their wicket. That is very hard. Agreed , a good start is important when chasing a big total , but whats the point if you leave the lower order with too much to do ?

Thats Ganguly as a package. You cant blame him for his lack of running. We know his limitations, thats how he plays. But he did well inspite of those limitations. He did his part yesterday, the middle order could not take us fwd.

[veer]

I saw the match and I can clearly say gangs screwd us up single handedly.. there is no place for a player who converts TWOs into ONEs.. in one instance, one of aussie players openly laughed about it.. its an Insult. unexcusable.. unable to find a better operner is different issue.. but to be physically unfit is another issue . it was just unbelievable.. the guy has played for 15 years.. and give that it was flat track.. 77 SR was unacceptable.. We gave the match away.. THANKS GANGULY.. ... SRT was great.. RD just having a bad series..

[novpj]

While I am all for resting seniors - I agree with Chandan that we cant blame this loss on Ganguly (from a pure stats perspective). Look at last 8 times when we scored more than 300 after the 25 over mark we were sitting around 140 in 7 out of 8 instances and were at 157 in the 8th instance when we scored 350. We lost the match when a) Australia, as they have done through out the series, scored at 10 an over in the last 12 overs b) we sent Dravid ahead of Dhoni and Utthappa c) Dravid and Yuvi screwed around. Bottomline we need to considerably improve our bowling, and fielding and need more options in the middle order and thats why dropping at least 2 of the big 3 makes sense. It gives us chance to test other players and also becoz playing them is not going to change the outcome drastically with this bowling and fielding.

[Chandan]

Now I'd like the chairman of selectors to ask the juniors to buck up or lose their spot. Afterall aren't a number of talented newbies waiting in the wing?? Why did he go quiet all of a sudden? And why hasn't even one senior hater replied in this thread?

[veer]

chandan.. i know wat you are saying.. but i feel yuvi, dhoni have been playing non stop for last 3-4 months.. i feel really bad for dhoni right now.. keeping+captaincy+no break is taking its toll on him... dont know what other youngsters you are referring to who are permanent in side..

[Chandan]

Yuvi didn't play a single test out there in England. All he played was ODI cricket or its younger brother T20. Plus he is a young man. Fatigue should not set for him. Dhoni--I agree. He has been playing non-stop and break after this series will do him a world of good. How about Uthappa?? It seems that he can play only in the slog overs where he can score a quickfire 20-30 runs. The moments it comes to building an inning, he fails miserably. Who'll take over from the seniors the responsibility to built the innings in the middle overs?? Who is putting his hands up for that job?

[Bumper]

Now I'd like the chairman of selectors to ask the juniors to buck up or lose their spot. Afterall aren't a number of talented newbies waiting in the wing?? Why did he go quiet all of a sudden? And why hasn't even one senior hater replied in this thread?

Duh, I dont know what you are ranting about, after one competent performance against the Aussies in numerous attempts. Here is what the big three have done vs Australia chasing recently, excluding the last one: Tendulkar 5 games, 75 runs @ 15.00 avg Dravid 5 games, 51 @ 10 Ganguly missed most of the games in the last year And if you want to dig into the past, more specifically their performance in must win games, the numbers will only get more ugly. Their recent first innings record is equally mediocre. A string of spineless performances, followed by one competent performance (never mind we still ended up on the losing side), is all it took for you guys to come out of the hiding, eh ? Am sorry, did our seniors just win the world cup to make us forget all the past screwups and immediately command the respect that you want every fan to give it to them ? What you are saying is that, juniors need to be ignored as long as our seniors are available for selection ? Take a wild guess the number of games it took for Tendulkar to develop into a world class ODI player that he became ? 80 odd games! Why shouldnt we phase the big three out, giving Rohit, Tiwary or a Badri a spot in the lineup ? Werent you the one who wanted the seniors to retire from ODIs (post the WC debacle) and focus on tests ? Look at what a fine striker Uthappa has become in the short run we've given him. Am sure you'd have liked Laxman to play ahead of him. My personal belief is that at this point no more than one spot must be taken by a senior player and that goes to Tendulkar on recent form. I'll play an entire lineup full of youngsters. As it is, we arent winning every ODI series with our seniors in the ranks, so there isnt much downside playing the guys who won the T20 worldcup.

[Guest HariSampath]

What rubbish!! Did you even see the match? Did you see what Australia's scores were at those times when Ganguly was at the crease? They were about 15 runs behind us with 3 more wickets down. Still they went on to score a mammoth 317 runs. Why? Because their middle order stood up. Symonds was and has been like a pillar throughout this series which none of our MO batsman have even come near to it in terms od performance let alone emulating him! And you are thinking that Ganguly's ball consumption led to our failure??

I saw the match and noticed the following things' 1. India needed 318 to win off 300 balls and all Indians knew it, that is 50 overs. 2.Ganguly and Dravid, consumed 20 overs between them and scored 90 runs and the rest of the 30 overs yielded 209 runs 3. Duribg the entire period Ganguly was batting, all batsmen at the other end Sachin and Irfan were scoring at run a ball, and that is the only reason Ganguly' pathetic effort was camouflaged to some extent. 4. Comparing where each team was at similar stages can be misleading, because if what you had said is an exact parallel, then who was there in India to score at 10 rpo for the last 10 overs ? Also, after losing early wkt, Aus through Gilly and Ponting were still scoring at 7 + runs per over. So what was India's acoring rate at the same period especially as no early wkts lost and also knowing we needed 6.3 to win ? 5. When a 300 plus chase is on, there is no question of batting slowly first and leaving it to others at a very high required rate. From the word go, we needed to get off to a very quick start at 8 an over and reduce pressure on the batsmen to follow. The conditions were helpful fast bowlers got no assistance, boundaries were very small and outfield was lightning quick. With all this, when we needed 6.3, the openers were all the time scoring at maxumum 5.5 and that too was due to Sachin playing quickly at run a ball. 6 Usually when a batsman starts slow then plays long innings the innings becomes acceptable only if he accelerates towards the end and finishes with at least run a ball, but Ganguly got 21 off the first 25 balls and then played 86 balls more for his next 63 runs The facts are even during the 2nd part of his innings, he scored 24 off his next 41 balls faced, that is he was 45 off 66 , and then 39 off the further 45 balls in the 3rd part of his inngs.This shows conclusively that as the asking rate was progressively climbing to 8+ an over, he made NO effort at any stage of his innings to play faster, in other words, all other batsmen were scoring at runs ball all through when even that rate was not enough, and Ganguly was personally consuming 4 full overs for no run ,over and above the run a ball minimum requirement, that is play at run a ball and then play 4 maiden overs. 7. The momentum of the inngs was very badly disrupted all through the innings when Ganguly was at the crease, we all know how important it is for scoring batsmen to get strike contnuously. But looking at Ganguly's innings, just see the spells of dot balls that are there. Sachin never got to face the bowling continuously when he was striking the ball well. Also, Ganguly's few boundaries and sixers were always preceded by plenty of dot balls and also dot balls after the boundaries. This proves what he did to the momentum of the innings. 8. If we are to assume that Ganguly's game plan was a winning one, then according to his game plan to win by scoring 318 in 50 overs, he would score at around 4 runs an over personally all through and batsmen at the other end had to score at 8 runs per over ? This is what happened he played out 19 overs all by himself for his 84 and that meant batsmen at the other end were required to get 234 in the other 31 overs. How is that fair and even possible ? With all that the runs scored off the other 31 overs were 215, and India lost eventually by 18 runs. Is this due to bad batting after Ganguly or bad batting by Ganguly ? 9. If setting up the team to a winning position was the goal, then Ganguly playing for the first 35 overs to take India to 200 meant that 118 were required off 15 overs, and this is clearly a huge task, an hardly a winning platform, leaving no time for incoming batsmen to get the remaining runs at 8.5 runs per over. 10. To sum up, the entire primary argument on Ganguly's behalf " I will play as long as I want and score at 4 runs per over well below run a ball, because I am anchoring the innings, but all others need to score at 8 runs per over because they need to win the match and if we don't win, my job is done and they are to blame, and if they do win it by brilliant batting I was the one who set it up", is thoroughly despicaple, disgusting and doesn't wash with any cricket fan who will want India to win. This defines precisely what the original post in the "selfish versus selfless" thread beautifully set out. This, then was the game I saw yesterday, and as it is somewhat apparent that you missed this match, and were watching Ganguly's own match, I suggest you watch the replays to know how he batted and why we lost. I think this post is pretty much what I would say for all the topics/threads analysing India's defeat ( as far as batting alone goes) and the botched up run chase.

[Chandan]

Read the post here, Mr Hari. And if you disagree with it, post reasons, not the comments which is purely based on the net coverage!

[Guest HariSampath]

Duh, I dont know what you are ranting about, after one competent performance against the Aussies in numerous attempts. Here is what the big three have done vs Australia chasing recently, excluding the last one: Tendulkar 5 games, 75 runs @ 15.00 avg Dravid 5 games, 51 @ 10 Ganguly missed most of the games in the last year And if you want to dig into the past, more specifically their performance in must win games, the numbers will only get more ugly. Their recent first innings record is equally mediocre. A string of spineless performances, followed by one competent performance (never mind we still ended up on the losing side), is all it took for you guys to come out of the hiding, eh ? Am sorry, did our seniors just win the world cup to make us forget all the past screwups and immediately command the respect that you want every fan to give it to them ? What you are saying is that, juniors need to be ignored as long as our seniors are available for selection ? Take a wild guess the number of games it took for Tendulkar to develop into a world class ODI player that he became ? 80 odd games! Why shouldnt we phase the big three out, giving Rohit, Tiwary or a Badri a spot in the lineup ? Werent you the one who wanted the seniors to retire from ODIs (post the WC debacle) and focus on tests ? Look at what a fine striker Uthappa has become in the short run we've given him. Am sure you'd have liked Laxman to play ahead of him. My personal belief is that at this point no more than one spot must be taken by a senior player and that goes to Tendulkar on recent form. I'll play an entire lineup full of youngsters. As it is, we arent winning every ODI series with our seniors in the ranks, so there isnt much downside playing the guys who won the T20 worldcup.

F-A-N-T-A-S-T-I-C bumper, spot on. Exactly what I had been saying and you have analysed the Indian team situation in total honesty.

[Anakin]

Just because it took about 80 games to score a 100 doesn't mean he wasn't a class batsman and was showing it already. And youngsters will have to do a lot more than just play because of age. Don't tell me they haven't got chances, because they already have.

[Chandan]

F-A-N-T-A-S-T-I-C bumper' date=' spot on. Exactly what I had been saying and you have analysed the Indian team situation in total honesty.[/quote'] First learn to differentiate between the formats, Mr Bumper and Hari and then come about analysing things. It was a pathetic analysis. So you think just because few "juniors" won the WC, they need to replace everyone in another format which is ODI?? And what merit does your stats have if spread between 15 months or so? Why should we take the stats only chasing? Thaty way we won against Australia defeating them while chasing in 1998 and only one player made that possible, known as Sachin Tendulkar. Does he earn the place on that stats till eternity if others don't win us a match while chasing?? And it seems that you followed very little cricket earlier. Sachin was never suspect while building an inning even when he was 17 years old. Very few can forget his match saving first ton at OT. How many of youngsters have that capability? Why did Uthappa fall like fly when sent up the order and needed to build an inning? Why couldn't Rohit do anything when he had ample number of overs left?? The problem is none of the youngsters are putting up their hands earlier in the inning when a good 50 or 60 ruuns inning up the order will do. And this is not a rant, but a reality! A very worrying reality for India.

[head coach]

First learn to differentiate between the formats, Mr Bumper and Hari and then come about analysing things. It was a pathetic analysis. So you think just because few "juniors" won the WC, they need to replace everyone in another format which is ODI?? And what merit does your stats have if spread between 15 months or so? Why should we take the stats only chasing? Thaty way we won against Australia defeating them while chasing in 1998 and only one player made that possible, known as Sachin Tendulkar. Does he earn the place on that stats till eternity if others don't win us a match while chasing?? And it seems that you followed very little cricket earlier. Sachin was never suspect while building an inning even when he was 17 years old. Very few can forget his match saving first ton at OT. How many of youngsters have that capability? Why did Uthappa fall like fly when sent up the order and needed to build an inning? Why couldn't Rohit do anything when he had ample number of overs left?? The problem is none of the youngsters are putting up their hands earlier in the inning when a good 50 or 60 ruuns inning up the order will do. And this is not a rant, but a reality! A very worrying reality for India.

Chandan, you need to play at a higher rate to win today's ODI matches when the opposition scores 300+(on flat pitches) The scoring goes like this 15 overs: 100+ runs 15- 40 over: 130 - 140+ runs 40 - 50 overs: 70 -80+ runs Players like Ganguly doesn't fit into this equation. You need players who can destroy the bowling line-up at the top and then players who can provide stability. Finishers like Uthappa/Dhoni can do the job then. It might be worthwhile to invest on junior players at an earlier stage to maximize wins at a higher rate within a shorter period. I would go with Bumper on saying only one senior is needed in the team during this exercise.

[Guest HariSampath]

Read the post here' date= Mr Hari. And if you disagree with it, post reasons, not the comments which is purely based on the net coverage!

My comments are not based on net coverage, because I saw the game ball by ball on Tv, and the stats are the same on Tv and anywhere else, why are you unable to defend Ganguly's pathetic game in this ODI with any cricketing point. Please provide any one single point that supports the view that Ganguly was playing to win the game for India when we were chasing 318 runs to win off 50 overs.

[Bumper]

First learn to differentiate between the formats, Mr Bumper and Hari and then come about analysing things. It was a pathetic analysis. So you think just because few "juniors" won the WC, they need to replace everyone in another format which is ODI??

Alright, now tell me why is experience valued over youth. To beat Bangladesh ? You play seniors over juniors because you fear juniors are not ready for big battles (like the WC, ICC CT, tri nation finals, series deciders etc). And we have managed to lose just about every important game in the last year, playing seniors, havent we ? Juniors did not win a under-19 world cup. They beat SA, Aus, Pak twice & England in consecutive games. These are international teams sporting the same players that play the ODI format. So there has to be some talent there in the junior ranks to achieve that ?

And what merit does your stats have if spread between 15 months or so? Why should we take the stats only chasing? Thaty way we won against Australia defeating them while chasing in 1998 and only one player made that possible, known as Sachin Tendulkar. Does he earn the place on that stats till eternity if others don't win us a match while chasing??

I find these qns really funny. So we are not supposed to look at any numbers that make seniors look weak, eh ? 15 months or so, is a good indication of recent trend. I dont know why you jumped to 1998, which is 9 years ago, as if thats an indication of what is to be expected from Tendulkar. I just gave the example of chasing to put yesterday;s performance in perspective, so you know how many times they have failed to perform recently. And it does not matter whether its chasing or setting targets or big games, our seniors have failed miserably when the opponents were Australia, in recent times. FYI, the last time we won against them, before the close Chandigarh ODI was way back in 2004. So much for the seniors delivering!!

And it seems that you followed very little cricket earlier. Sachin was never suspect while building an inning even when he was 17 years old. Very few can forget his match saving first ton at OT. How many of youngsters have that capability? Why did Uthappa fall like fly when sent up the order and needed to build an inning? Why couldn't Rohit do anything when he had ample number of overs left?? The problem is none of the youngsters are putting up their hands earlier in the inning when a good 50 or 60 ruuns inning up the order will do. And this is not a rant, but a reality! A very worrying reality for India.

\Diff players have diff strengths. Uthappa is a great finisher and must be used down the order. Similarly, Dravid or a SRT would struggle to hit boundaries like a Yuvraj or Uthappa when the ask is above 12 RPO. Does that make them useless ODI players ? I already told you when the oponents are Aussies, it does not matter, when we bat. Our seniors have failed in recent games, more often than not, batting first or second. If we are gonna lose 5-1 to the Aussies and that too in mostly one sided games, what difference does it make if we lose with the juniors or seniors ? It may be to you, it doesnt to me. Let these senior folks win something meaningful, then I'll sit back take notice of your comments.

[Guest HariSampath]

I am not asking for any fireworks or 7-8 RPO periods. Just normal 5-6 RPO milking between the 36th and 42nd over which any team having any ambitions of winning an ODI should be able to do. While either of our openers were in the middle we were well ahead of where Australia were at that stage.

Wrong completely. Australia put up their first 100 in 15 overs, and India put up their first 100 in 20 overs

[The Outsider]

Let me quote from my post in another thread :

Any team chasing 310+ runs to win would give an arm, leg, and bit more to be left with a 8 RPO target in the last 15 overs with 8 wickets in hand(one of the wickets lost being a pinch hitter and not a batsman).

And let me add that the real power hitters in our side ie. Yuvraj, Dhoni, and Uthappa were yet to come out. It was their collective failure along with Dravid's which led to the loss.

[Chandan]

My comments are not based on net coverage, because I saw the game ball by ball on Tv, and the stats are the same on Tv and anywhere else, why are you unable to defend Ganguly's pathetic game in this ODI with any cricketing point. Please provide any one single point that supports the view that Ganguly was playing to win the game for India when we were chasing 318 runs to win off 50 overs.

Did you read the link I provided you for heaven's sake? Or do I need to copy paste that post again for you to read it?

[The Outsider]

Wrong completely. Australia put up their first 100 in 15 overs, and India put up their first 100 in 20 overs

What kind of a rubbish argument is that. India put on 70+ runs between overs 20 and 30, Australia put on 45!!!:hysterical::hysterical: Point is left with 8 RPO in the last 15 overs and 8 wickets in hand with all your youth brigade big hitters to come, the match should have been a cakewalk.