Choker from the start?

[The Outsider]

There have been numerous claims of Tendulkar, Ganguly, and Dravid choking in finals and must win matches, a lot of them justifiable because none of them have a great recent record in must win matches and finals. Yuvraj has been branded as the fearless batsman to take us out of our failure to step up in knockout/must win games. Here is Yuvraj's record in ODI finals :

[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]                     Mat    I  NO  Runs HS1  HS2  HS3     Ave 100  50   0

unfiltered           189  171  25  5286 139  121  120   36.20   8  30   9
filtered              15   13   1   221  69   42   24   18.41   0   1   1

Tendulkar, Ganguly, and Dravid have all been below the standards expected in these must win matches recently but have all in the past delivered in these games a number of times, specially Tendulkar who still has a healthy average in the mid 40s in finals. Even in their recent slump, all have better performances than the man supposed to lead our batting in the future. With this as evidence how can we confidently jettison the seniors on "non performance"? Even looking at few recent matches, Yuvraj failed to deliver in all must win encounters starting from the WC match against SL, followed by the last 2 ODIs against England, and now the last 2-3 ODIs against Australia which we needed to win to stay alive in the series. If the "seniors" became "chokers" over a period of time, are the "juniors" starting off "chokers"?

[Prudent]

Interesting.... Shwetabh , can you please post the records of the seniors too. Thank you!

[The Outsider]

Dravid :

[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]                     Mat    I  NO  Runs HS1  HS2  HS3     Ave 100  50   0

unfiltered           333  308  40 10585 153  145  123*  39.49  12  81  13
filtered              23   21   1   690 103*  84   77   34.50   1   3   3

Ganguly:

[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]                     Mat    I  NO  Runs HS1  HS2  HS3     Ave 100  50   0

unfiltered           306  295  23 11274 183  153* 144   41.44  22  72  15
filtered              31   29   2  1000 124  117  109   37.03   3   4   0
[/FONT]

Tendulkar:

[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]                     Mat    I  NO  Runs HS1  HS2  HS3     Ave 100  50   0

unfiltered           401  391  37 15682 186* 152  146   44.29  41  85  19
filtered              36   35   4  1487 134  128  124*  47.96   4   9   4
[/FONT]

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[The Outsider]

Year, 2000 onwards Tendulkar, Ganguly, and Dravid have been pretty poor as well averaging 27, 27, and 29 respectively but still nowhere in the Yuvraj range.

[Guest Hiten.]

[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]                     Mat    I  NO  Runs HS1  HS2  HS3     Ave 100  50   0

unfiltered           401  391  37 15682 186* 152  146   44.29  41  85  19
filtered              36   35   4  1487 134  128  124*  47.96   4   9   4
[/FONT]

which smartass claimed that tendulkar is useless when it comes to finals. He averages more in final than his overall career average :giggle:

Tendulkar:

[Holysmoke]

which smartass claimed that tendulkar is useless when it comes to finals. He averages more in final than his overall career average :giggle:

lots of people claim lot of crap. You dont need to believe them :hysterical:

[Mr. Wicket]

Oi shwetabh, stop knocking Yuseless. Remember, he can bowl extremely hittable left arm spin that fills in overs, and he dives and looks like he's saving half a dozen runs at least each game. What difference does it make if he's only averaging <20 in finals, and has about two shots to play to spinners, one of which he gets out to fairly regularly?

[Mr. Wicket]

BTW, I think a far better indication of a player's nerve under pressure is the sort of situations he's made runs in when tests are concerned. Most of Yuvraj's knocks in tests have been soft innings. There were the two 70s in India against Sri Lanka, both of which came in the second innings with significant first innings leads and the hard work already done by the top order/batsmen in the first innings. Yuvraj in the first innings of both games failed miserably with ducks when it mattered more. His other half century came on a road, walking in at 565/4 against a battered attack. His last test hundred also came in a similarly pressure-free situation. In Karachi, India were chasing upwards of 600 and were 74/4 when he walked in. With Pakistan attacking and no chance of a draw, runs could come easily but were meaningless. Only his Lahore hundred in 04 could be considered a truly valuable innings for the team cause, and was a superb knock. But that's a real indicator of his consistency and reliability. 19 tests, average of 33.20, 2 hundreds and 3 fifties - and only one of those knocks came in anything but soft/nothing-to-lose conditions. In fact, he averages a pathetic 24.05 in the first team innings in tests, when the match is really there to be set up and won with a lot more at stake. Why do we persist with him?

[Guest HariSampath]

There have been numerous claims of Tendulkar, Ganguly, and Dravid choking in finals and must win matches, a lot of them justifiable because none of them have a great recent record in must win matches and finals. Yuvraj has been branded as the fearless batsman to take us out of our failure to step up in knockout/must win games. Here is Yuvraj's record in ODI finals :

[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]                    Mat    I  NO  Runs HS1  HS2  HS3     Ave 100  50   0[/FONT]
 
[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]unfiltered           189  171  25  5286 139  121  120   36.20   8  30   9[/FONT]
[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]filtered              15   13   1   221  69   42   24   18.41   0   1   1[/FONT]

Tendulkar, Ganguly, and Dravid have all been below the standards expected in these must win matches recently but have all in the past delivered in these games a number of times, specially Tendulkar who still has a healthy average in the mid 40s in finals. Even in their recent slump, all have better performances than the man supposed to lead our batting in the future. With this as evidence how can we confidently jettison the seniors on "non performance"?

Even looking at few recent matches, Yuvraj failed to deliver in all must win encounters starting from the WC match against SL, followed by the last 2 ODIs against England, and now the last 2-3 ODIs against Australia which we needed to win to stay alive in the series.

If the "seniors" became "chokers" over a period of time, are the "juniors" starting off "chokers"?

Can you please list the criterion for the selection of your matches ?

[Guest HariSampath]

I think the criteria for a "must win" situation is highly flayed, particularly in the context of the current series. In this series, after the first game was washed out and India lost 2 in a row, we were always in a "must win to stay alive" situation. Even in that lost game in Hyderabad, where we really needed to win the game, Yuvaraj was the lone hand and got that brilliant century in a high pressure run chase, apart from other very valuable innings. And judging a player solely on the basis of some selected "finals" cannot be a right indicator, if that were the case, one huge thing that comes to mind is the fact we all know. The "big 3" put together have not won a world cup for India since Sachin played his first world cup in 1992. How can we say these three are the biggest performers for India in ODIs when their track record on the world stage in the biggest collection of cricketing teams has been a dismal failure repeatedly for the last 4 -5 world cups ? This analysis also ignores a player's "must win" temperament which is fighting with backs to the wall, irrespective of finals, semis or anything, and certainly we saw in the recent T20, that in both the "must wins" that Yuvraj played against England and Australia, we won because of him. Moreover Yuvraj has won entire ODI series off his own bat like in Pakistan 2005/6 , something in which the seniors record is far below his record. After all this, aht sums up is simply the fact that as on date, while there are big questions raised about the big 3 particularly Ganguly and Dravid regarding theirvery places in the XI, there is not even a hint of a suggestion anywhere that Yuvraj's place is under question: He is India's best batsman in ODIs . Period.

[Anakin]

HS, other than spewing so much garbage, just say simply pick the games where SRT scored 0 and then we'll see.

[Anakin]

which smartass claimed that tendulkar is useless when it comes to finals. He averages more in final than his overall career average :giggle:

Told you guys before, it's a law of nature............

[Yuvraj4Captaincy]

I think the criteria for a "must win" situation is highly flayed, particularly in the context of the current series. In this series, after the first game was washed out and India lost 2 in a row, we were always in a "must win to stay alive" situation. Even in that lost game in Hyderabad, where we really needed to win the game, Yuvaraj was the lone hand and got that brilliant century in a high pressure run chase, apart from other very valuable innings. And judging a player solely on the basis of some selected "finals" cannot be a right indicator, if that were the case, one huge thing that comes to mind is the fact we all know. The "big 3" put together have not won a world cup for India since Sachin played his first world cup in 1992. How can we say these three are the biggest performers for India in ODIs when their track record on the world stage in the biggest collection of cricketing teams has been a dismal failure repeatedly for the last 4 -5 world cups ? This analysis also ignores a player's "must win" temperament which is fighting with backs to the wall, irrespective of finals, semis or anything, and certainly we saw in the recent T20, that in both the "must wins" that Yuvraj played against England and Australia, we won because of him. Moreover Yuvraj has won entire ODI series off his own bat like in Pakistan 2005/6 , something in which the seniors record is far below his record. After all this, aht sums up is simply the fact that as on date, while there are big questions raised about the big 3 particularly Ganguly and Dravid regarding theirvery places in the XI, there is not even a hint of a suggestion anywhere that Yuvraj's place is under question: He is India's best batsman in ODIs . Period.

Excellent post

[Yuvraj4Captaincy]

and werent the 2 back to bakc odis in 2001/2002 or whenever when india was trailing against zimbawve(And they werent a pushover then). and needed both the last 2 odis to win the series..yuvraj scored brilliant half centuries at a rapid strike rate. the statistics is flawed....

[Gambit]

This analysis also ignores a player's "must win" temperament which is fighting with backs to the wall, irrespective of finals, semis or anything, and certainly we saw in the recent T20, that in both the "must wins" that Yuvraj played against England and Australia, we won because of him.

Yuvraj sucks in finals period. He failed in the T20 final too. He cannot escape criticism on the back of his performances in the lead up to the final simply because that would be blatant double standards. The big three ALWAYS get slated for not doing well in finals but no one talks about their performances that got us to the finals. Yuvi should be judged by the same yardstick.

Moreover Yuvraj has won entire ODI series off his own bat like in Pakistan 2005/6 , something in which the seniors record is far below his record.

Incorrect. It was SRT, Yuvraj and Dhoni who were responsible for our series victory in Pak. Not just Yuvraj.

[Anakin]

Actually in that Pak series it was SRT who saw off dangerous swinging conditions earlier and set up the match in India's favor. Yuvi and Dhoni finished off nicely, but the props should go to SRT.

[Gambit]

Actually in that Pak series it was SRT who saw off dangerous swinging conditions earlier and set up the match in India's favor. Yuvi and Dhoni finished off nicely' date=' but the props should go to SRT.[/quote'] Especially in the crucial game at Lahore where Asif and Gul were making the ball swing miles.

[Chandan]

Actually in that Pak series it was SRT who saw off dangerous swinging conditions earlier and set up the match in India's favor. Yuvi and Dhoni finished off nicely' date=' but the props should go to SRT.[/quote'] How short is public memory isn't it? It is so true that Yuvi and Dhoni delivered the knock out punch in this matches in Pak but how can one forget this: Posted by Siddhartha Vaidyanathan on 02/13/2006 in India in Pakistan 2005-06 Strangely, and this maybe because I have watched most of Sachin Tendulkar’s career before I began covering cricket, I have rarely noticed him when he leaves the ball. Through the nineties, Sachin letting the ball go was often like a commercial between overs – take your eyes off for a moment, finish off any small pending work and then refocus on the game. It was a brief interlude, as if he was taking a breather before conjuring up further magic. Dravid on Tendulkar: 'He realised there was something happening with the ball, realised we needed to keep wickets' © Getty Images It was Dravid who came to one’s mind while uttering the words ‘well-left’. It was stuck in the memory – that exaggerated leave which appeared to have been executed after he had cracked several algebraic equations. Everything was precise about it, to a fault in fact, and one noticed it more and more. With that as the backdrop, you can understand my queer feeling when I watched the game today. Here, right in front of my eyes, was the great Mr. Dravid, yes the wall himself, being turned inside out, struggling against the darting cutters and generally looking a mess against the new ball. And there was the great Mr. Tendulkar, against the same bowlers on the same pitch, judging line immaculately, shuffling nimbly at the crease and shouldering arms just at the right moment. Here was Dravid, playing and missing, poking, almost choking under the seaming handcuffs. And there was Tendulkar, alert and cool, determined and completely assured, reading the angularities, predicting the bowlers’ tactics, thwarting, thwarting, thwarting. Asif and Gul were jagging it all over the place, breaking through the defensive fortress that is Dravid but against Tendulkar they had not a chance. For nearly seven overs, he dodged and no amount of movement appeared to matter. His 95 runs made the vital difference between India’s victory and defeat but nobody should forget those snaking deliveries that he harmlessly let go, helped remove the shine and laid out the easier path for the rest of the batsmen. Tendulkar letting the ball go was a sight in itself. Tendulkar letting the ball go, while Dravid groped in the darkness, made the sight that bit more astonishing. ------------------------------------------------ This was one of the great ODIs which I'll never forget!!

[The Outsider]

Can you please list the criterion for the selection of your matches ?

Finals, as I said clearly. Added a few comments on matches in which were in must win situations.

Even in that lost game in Hyderabad, where we really needed to win the game, Yuvaraj was the lone hand and got that brilliant century in a high pressure run chase, apart from other very valuable innings.

How was Hyderabad a must win situation? We were 0-1 going into the match in what was effectively a 6 match series at that point.

And judging a player solely on the basis of some selected "finals" cannot be a right indicator, if that were the case, one huge thing that comes to mind is the fact we all know. The "big 3" put together have not won a world cup for India since Sachin played his first world cup in 1992.

I never said it should be a sole indicator and I've already mentioned the recent performance of Tendulkar, Ganguly, and Dravid in finals has been poor but it has received more than it's share of criticism. How come a much worse performance by Yuvraj failed to receive the due attention?

How can we say these three are the biggest performers for India in ODIs when their track record on the world stage in the biggest collection of cricketing teams has been a dismal failure repeatedly for the last 4 -5 world cups ?

Tendulkar at the peak of his game, with support from Ganguly and Dravid at least led us into a WC final and has led us into a SF as well earlier, besides being joint winners of the ICC CT and finalists. Yuvraj at the peak of his career led us to a first round exit from the WC.

This analysis also ignores a player's "must win" temperament which is fighting with backs to the wall, irrespective of finals, semis or anything, and certainly we saw in the recent T20, that in both the "must wins" that Yuvraj played against England and Australia, we won because of him.

Yeah, I heard people clamoring for Yuvraj getting a spot in tests based in the six sixers he hit in T20, doesn't mean those claims are logical.

Moreover Yuvraj has won entire ODI series off his own bat like in Pakistan 2005/6 , something in which the seniors record is far below his record.

Many people have already answered that above.

He is India's best batsman in ODIs . Period.

I agree and it's such a study in contrast of our team's fortunes when Tendulkar/Ganguly were our best ODI batsmen and now Yuvraj is. This is how big the gulf is. An over the hill Tendulkar is averaging pretty much the same as a Yuvraj at the height of his game. That is how much the gulf in their class is.

and werent the 2 back to bakc odis in 2001/2002 or whenever when india was trailing against zimbawve(And they werent a pushover then). and needed both the last 2 odis to win the series..yuvraj scored brilliant half centuries at a rapid strike rate.

:hysterical::hysterical: A series 6-7 years back against the might of Zimbabwe is what you can come up with of Yuvraj performing under pressure. Thanks for making my points for me, pretty much sums it up.