Choker from the start?

[Bumper]

Ok' date=' you found one, Kirsten. Good, but once again those questions are mere auxiliary digression from the crux of my post :[/quote'] I never denied that Tendulkar is a well rounded ODI player. Because he is a good opener, useful part timer, decent fielder & runs between the wickets well. But just asking for such unique stats, knowing well that people dont have the time to research it, is not gonna prove that he is the greatest performer in the finals, the reality is far from it. Look at Jayasuriya's record in finals -- just awesome!

[The Outsider]

Again, going into needless technicalities like one less innings, or 50+ runs but within 10 runs of the highest scorer. I don't want to digress from the crux of my post but I'll humor you a bit, in Kirsten's case or Gilchrist's or Richards' or Anwars' for the matter do you see a difference? Sides have regularly been tumbled out for sub 200 scores by their bowling attacks. And the fact that Lurker after spending quite a few minutes on cricinfo was able to come up with 2 Indian wins over the last 18 years and got orgasmic at a 3rd one, and you digging through cricinfo for the past half hour have been able to find two batsman, part of two of the most potent ODI bowling attacks, actually is proving Gambit and my point ie. Tendulkar's record is phenomenal. But let's talk about the main issue here :

There will always be a support cast, cricket is a team game it's obvious and in today's form Tendulkar is as good a support cast as you will get - a reliable opener, averages in the mid 40s, SR in the 80s, top scores and tops the averages against the best ODI side in history in a bilateral series, safe fielder, good runner between the wickets, a thinking brain to chip in with advice, a major help to guide young batsmen. What is missing is that the supposed main stars are failing. Is it fair to expect someone with 18 years of international sport behind him to continue to play the lead role. In more talented and conducive cricketing environments he would have been exploited as an ideal support cast.

[The Outsider]

I never denied that Tendulkar is a well rounded ODI player. Because he is a good opener, useful part timer, decent fielder & runs between the wickets well.

And yet, you along with several others don't hesitate a moment before asking him to be dropped from the side on the basis of non-performance?

[Bumper]

Again' date=' going into needless technicalities like one less innings, or 50+ runs but within 10 runs of the highest scorer. I don't want to digress from the crux of my post but I'll humor you a bit, in Kirsten's case or Gilchrist's or Richards' or Anwars' for the matter do you see a difference? [u']Sides have regularly been tumbled out for sub 200 scores by their bowling attacks. And the fact that Lurker after spending quite a few minutes on cricinfo was able to come up with 2 Indian wins over the last 18 years and got orgasmic at a 3rd one, and you digging through cricinfo for the past half hour have been able to find two batsman, part of two of the most potent ODI bowling attacks, actually is proving Gambit and my point ie. Tendulkar's record is phenomenal.

Oh really! Did you look at the score cards Gambit posted to cross check the scores ?:cantstop: 212: http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/66134.html 185': http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/66067.html 202:http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/66003.html Tendulkar's 3 out of 5 performances in finals win, have come in low scoring games too, when our attack bowled the opponents out for a cheap total

But let's talk about the main issue here :

I already answered that in my above post. U prolly need to look for some other reason :D

[The Outsider]

Oh really! Did you look at the score cards Gambit posted to cross check the scores ?:cantstop: 212: http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/66134.html 185': http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/66067.html 202:http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/66003.html Tendulkar's 3 out of 5 performances in finals win, have come in low scoring games too, when our attack bowled the opponents out for a cheap total I already answered that in my above post. U prolly need to look for some other reason :D

Firstly, just do an average score of the runs Tendulkar's opponents scored and your list and I can bet Tendulkar will top the list without crunching the numbers myself. I have that much faith in our bowling attack. Secondly, even after praising all aspects of Tendulkar you want him dropped from the side on the basis of "non performance" I find wierd.

[Chandan]

So the OP of this thread went for a six and no one is discussing Yuvraj now, our present MVP? Can I just ask why??

[The Outsider]

So the OP of this thread went for a six and no one is discussing Yuvraj now, our present MVP? Can I just ask why??

Because there was nothing left to discuss on the MVP!!:hysterical:

[Bumper]

Firstly, just do an average score of the runs Tendulkar's opponents scored and your list and I can bet Tendulkar will top the list without crunching the numbers myself. I have that much faith in our bowling attack.

Ah so now we have a new criteria. So what is it ? Contributions in Finals win when the opponents scored 250+ ? It wont take more than a few mins to bust that myth either, but i wont bother, as the original attempt to pass this off as some kinda uinique achievement has already been busted

Secondly, even after praising all aspects of Tendulkar you want him dropped from the side on the basis of "non performance" I find wierd.

I never claimed anywhere in my posts, Tendulkar does not deserve a spot in our ODI team. (You may be confusing what I said about him in tests). However i no longer like him to play ODIs, as it serves him or our cricket's future very little.

[Gambit]

I adressed this issue very clearly that I find this whole viewpoint hilarious. When Jadeja scored a century Sachin took 5 wickets. What does one have to do with other? Did Jadeja get an easy 6 because Sachin was gonna take 5 wickets later? Did Sachin take a wicket cos Jadeja had already scored a century?? The two issues are not related at all.

I am not demeaning Jadeja's ton. I am talking about contributions!!! SRT almost always contributes in wins over Australia. I have said that all along.

Allow me to categorically state that SRT is a big effing loser and thank goodness he was not in India's 20/20 team so kicked off Aussies butt(without SRT) and went on to become World Cup Champions. The greatest batsman, ney choker of our era, sulked at how he missed the team while the Young brigade celebrated woohoo!!

Good. Bare your bias for all to see. Funny how you were complaining about Yuvi getting made fun of and here we have you launch an all out attack at SRT and demean him. Anyhow, your opinion on SRT from now on will be considered as objective as Baghdad Bob's opinion on Iraq War. So much for your lecture on respecting our cricketers.

Happy now? You go by LOI I go by 20/20 and twain shall never meet. And I would certainly be pointing out your bluff the next time you chant "test cricket is the real deal".

Once again, you make assumptions. Test cricket has always been paramount for me. You've made incorrect leaps of logic and assumptions. Nowhere have I stated ODIs or 20/20 to be greater than Test Cricket.

Personally I have spent ample time on this thread and I am done.

As have I.

[Gambit]

Just got time to read this entire thread. Just did some research on the above scorecards. Gambit, I see you deny Jaddu's 100 by pointing to Sachin's bowling efforts. If we use that logic, then none of the above score cards are really valid. 66 vs WI, had ample support from Jadeja who scored 58 & Raju's 4-fer http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/66003.html 67 vs RSA was only a secondary effort in the game. In a low scoring game, Kumble took 4-fer & was the MoM. http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/66067.html 95 vs Pak had ample support from Ganguly who scored 68 http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/66134.html 128 vs SL, had support in the form of Ganguly's 109. http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/66157.html Which leaves SRT's 134 the only lone game winning knock. The next highest score was 58 by Azhar. So it is fair to say that SRT failed to do it himself (except on one occassion), without receiving a significant support from one or two team mates, which was as good or better than his own contributions.:cantstop:

bumper, please show me where I denied Jadeja's 100. I asked Lurker this: Please list matches where Jaddu performed and SRT did jack against OZ where we won. My point was always that without SRT's contributions in a game against OZ, we struggle to win. I entered the thread saying this:

Please do show me five ODI matches that India have won against Australia since Sachin's debut without any meaningful contribution from SRT whatsoever. Thanks.

[Gambit]

BTW bumper, Kirsten was a good find. I'd never thought it would be him. Still tied with 5 for SRT though. Viv, I knew. SJ I knew had fewer than SRT.

It wont take more than a few mins to bust that myth either, but i wont bother, as the original attempt to pass this off as some kinda uinique achievement has already been busted

I'd said this:

Also, please find me any Indian batsmen with more than 5 match winning+top scoring knocks in ODI finals against non minnows. Let's see how many such batsmen exist. Also feel free to find any non Aussie batsmen as well.

You have not found any Indian bats yet and non Aussie international bats from this era with more than 5 yet. If you do, let me know. I would seriously genuinely like to know.I'll keep looking as well and will post on this thread when I find some.

[Mr. Wicket]

Because there was nothing left to discuss on the MVP!!:hysterical:

But what about Yuseless? Aren't he and the MVP mutually exclusive?

[Guest dada_rocks]

Cricket matters pe itana emotional debate.. bhai kamaal hai.. it's a game at the end of the day unless we are playing against pakiss

[varun]

Cricket matters pe itana emotional debate.. bhai kamaal hai.. it's a game at the end of the day unless we are playing against pakiss

IndianCricketFans.com

[Shehezaada]

unfortunately using a few criteria like average in finals is a bit inconclusive because not all of them are pressure situations. Let's get this straight. Tendulkar was our best batsmen in terms of handling pressure and leading us in pressure games pre 2000 right? And from then on he has sucked? Yuvraj is the one who is better then Tendulkar post 2000? That is what is being argued. Let's then look at pressure games from 2000 onwards. This might take some time but it will rest the debate. I'm willing to go out on a bet and say Tendulkar is still our best bat in pressure situations, or if not, very close to being the best.

[bunny]

Shwetabh, those are some good stats I must admit. But, you have to give Yuvraj the benefit of doubt because most of those innings have been pre 2006 when he certainly wasn't even one of the top 3 Indian ODI batsmen.

[Shehezaada]

Games Include: Finals, Deciders (5th game in a 2-2 ODI series), and games needed to win in order to reach final. ICC Knockout ve Kenya: Sachin 25/35 Yuvraj DNB vs Australia: 38/37 84/80 vs SA: 39/50 41/35 FINAL 69/83 18/19 FINAL Sharjah vs SRL: 5/11 3/8 FINAL ODI in 2001 versus AUS: 12/15 19/21 FINAL vs WI: 0/4 DNB FINAL vs SRL: DNB 6/6 Final vs SA: 17/42 0/2 4th ODI versus ZIM: DNB 80/60 5th ODI versus ZIM: DNB 75/52 5th ODI versus WIN: 65/70 10/16 Natwest: 14/19 69/63 ICC 2002 Zim: 7/16 3/7 ICC 2002 9*/20 DNB ICC 2002 16/29 62/72 FINAL": 7*/22 DNB 6th ODI versus WIN: DNB 54/64 7th ODI versus WIN: DNB 68/69 WC 2003: 673/754 in 11 innings 240/287 in 10 innings TVS cup versus Aussies 100/119 44/33 Semi final vs NZ: 102/91 7/10 FINAL: 45/66 4/6 VB Final#1: 8/22 20/21 VB Final#2: 27/40 4/15 4th ODI versus PAK: 7/13 36/35 5th ODI versus PAK: 37/48 18/19 Asia cup PAK: 78/103 28/29 FINAL: 74/100 8/25 Holland vs PAK: DNB 13/24 ICC 2004: DNB 9/12 in 2 innings PAK 5th ODI 1/10 18/33 PAK 6th ODI 9/15 13/17 FINAL SRL: DNB 42/58 FINAL NZ: DNB 20/32 ICC 2006: 74/112 in 3 54/104 in 3 WI 2007: 100*/76 DNB SRL 2007" DNB 95*/93 WC 2007: 64/58 in 2 136/116 in 3 Belfast #1: 99/143 13/12 Belfast #2: 93/106 49/63* Belfast #3: 8/8 61/82* ENG #5 71/59 72/57 ENG #6 94/81 18/24 ENG #7 30/46 28/48 PAK #4: 97/102 53*/65 -------------------- The Results:

[Shehezaada]

Tendulkar 2214 in 48 at 49.2 Yuvraj 1695 in 60 at 30.27

[The Outsider]

Excellent work, Shehezaada. Wonderful compilation.

[Chandan]

Tendulkar 2214 in 48 at 49.2 Yuvraj 1695 in 60 at 30.27

Terrific compilation, Shehzada. :thumbs_up: All those who want to include Yuvraj from whichever year can also do the compilation and let us know the result. We'll be all too glad to see the result!!