Choker from the start?

[yoda]

yes his recent performances have been poor in tests but that doesn't mean he should be shown the door suddenly. Sehwag and Ganguly were given innumberable chances...

How do you show him the door slowly? Drop him 3/4 through a match first? :D

[siddhu]

How do you show him the door slowly? Drop him 3/4 through a match first? :D

Kind of like Steve Waugh... first the selectors have to make some noise about dropping him... if he scores a couple of centuries keep him for a few more matches... then again start making the noise...etc...:D

[Lurker]

Lurker' date=' if I were a big Srinath fan and if I were to make fun of Kapil and deride his performances, would you not retaliate by demeaning Srinath? What is happening here is that people are praising Yuvraj [b']at the expense of Sachin and hence Yuvi's inadequacies are being highlighted. If I were to create a thread on Yuvi's failing, I bet you 90% of people will retaliate by bringing down SRT. Where is the justice?

Well I shall only speak for myself Gambo. The way I have seen this thread initiate was directly anti-Yuvraj rather than anything else. I am not sure what were the reason for Shwetabh to do why he did this but I find it strange that to celebrate one hero(SRT) one has to bring other down(Yuvraj).

I am not even talking about replacement. As long as he keeps making runs AND feels like playing, he should continue. Your view is that since he is a senior member he should retire, FULL STOP. But the fact of the matter is that he has been in fine form in ODIs last year and this year and as long as he does well, he should be picked.

Okay lets take that line(scoring runs) further. In his last 4 test series SRT has been 6th, 4th, 9th, 10th in batting averages. Do you think that is ample reason for him to be dropped from Test side?

People bring down SRT pointing his lack of performances in recent finals. Fair enough. But what were the other batsmen doing? When their non performances are discussed, SRT is abused again. Why?

Why is SRT abused. Thats not how it always was, was it now? You have to realize that SRT abuse(from Indian fan) started circa 2003 WC final. Before that you would have a disgruntled Pakistani(or a West Indian Lara fan) criticize SRT but by and large SRT was always supported by Indian fans. Do you seriously think most of SRT critics today, say right here folks like Bumper, myself, Gator, were SRT baitor. Not exactly. But post 2003 he has SUCKED. And still has obtained the pass to play every game. Hence the criticism.

Also, why is the fact that SRT has won us more finals than any other batsmen ever not highlighted as often as it should be?

Says who? How exactly is it not highlighted when any Indian fan, regardless of the fact that he likes Dravid(or anyone else) over SRT, acknowledges SRT as the greatest LOI batsman?? I can quote you many books right from Guzzu Ezekiel to Henry Blofeld that celebrate SRT's innings of note. What else do you want?

I just showed you 5 top scoring match winning performances in ODI tournament finals. Can anyone find me an Indian batsmen with more top scoring match winning performances in ODI tourney finals? Or even 3-4 international batsmen who've got more than 5? Anyone?

Now see here you go wrong. Why do you have to bash up other players with challenges like that?? Here let me give you 2 great innings right off the bat. 1) 1983 WC finals 38 by Srikkanth(highest in the game) 2) 1985 Benson Hedges 67 by Srikkanth(highest in the game) Those two innings, to me, shall rank much ahead of 10s of innings played by SRT(or others) simply because we were World Champions. If I use your logic I can ask you to show me 2 innings in WC(or similar) finals of note that SRT has done?? Can you? By the by check the numbers of Srikkanth in the finals sometime. He was really good in crunch games, though we often lost a few of those but surely we wasnt at fault.

Please do show me five ODI matches that India have won against Australia since Sachin's debut without any meaningful contribution from SRT whatsoever. Thanks.

Okay, what is a meanigful contribution? Am I fair to assume that anytime Sachin has scored less than say 44 runs it is meaningless? I mean since his average is 44 plus anyway surely one would expect him to score thereabouts for it to be of any meaning? xxx

[Bumper]

Tendulkar has top scored in the following finals bringing India glory: 66 v WI - Calcutta, Wills World Series Final (3rd team was NZ) 67 v RSA - Mumbai, Titan Cup(3rd team was Australia) 95 v Pak - Dhaka, 1st final Independence Cup (3rd team was BD) 134 v Aus - Sharjah, Coca Cola Cup(3rd team was NZ) 128 v SL - Colombo, Singer Final(3rd team was NZ) And I'm not even including 523@87 in the 1996 world cup and 673@61 in the 2003 world cup! Lurker, please find me multiple instances of Yuvraj winning grand finals. Also, please find me any Indian batsmen with more than 5 match winning+top scoring knocks in ODI finals against non minnows. Let's see how many such batsmen exist. Also feel free to find any non Aussie batsmen as well.

Impressive stats Gambit. But you are making a point that no one is even trying to deny -- That SRT has been our best ODI bat ever. Post 2000, our entire batting lineup inclusive of the big three has been crap, in the finals, which is reflected in our poor results. Was Yuvraj or Sehwag or Kaif more crappy than Tendulkar is really irrelevant, it doesnt prove or disprove anything. And the comparison is hardly fair, as you are comparing inexperienced players with a veteran, an all time great. As they attain the status of senior statesmen, the big three will have to take on the tough responsibilities. They need to lead from the front & show the youngsters the way it is done in big games. Is anyone questioning Gilly or Hayden or Ponting's place in Australia ? Hayden finished as the tourney's highest run getter in the world cup. McGrath was the MVP. Gilly played the innings of his lifetime in a world cup finals, absolutely murdering the best ever Lankan attack. Ponting keeps on piling the runs in both forms of the game. Am just too tired of watching our big three show up in one important game after another, only to have their a$$ handed to them. When they fail as frequently, as Pakistan does against India in a world cup, they give you an impression that they can never do it anymore. When such a time comes, they need to be phased out. Their past reputation, achievements, averages, man of the matches, yada yada yada is all great -- but irrelevant to the problem at hand. Whats the point in accomodating them, when they cannot even win you a triangular once in a while! (The last time we won a triangular was way back in 2002). And in the all important world cups, we couldnt even get past Bangladesh or a West Indies (Champions trophy). Barring some minor glories (Ind-Pak'04, Ind-Pak'05), in which youngsters played a significant hand, there is not much we can show interms of success in ODI cricket in the last 5 years. Such is the poverty of our ODI cricket. Its time to move on & look beyond the big three.

[Lurker]

how come tests suddenly feature in a discussion of ODIs? Make up your mind, from which team do u want him to be removed, tests or ODIs? And if u want him to be "replaced" in tests, show me one batsman of his calibre who can replace him. yes his recent performances have been poor in tests but that doesn't mean he should be shown the door suddenly. Sehwag and Ganguly were given innumberable chances...

I was only extrapolating your logic. And mind you I gave you only past 4 Test series, I can easily go further with more embarssing numbers. Now coming to your "showing the door suddenly" that is BS. The man has flopped in 6 test series now, how many more chances does he need? And your assertion about Sehwag/Ganguly is another BS. The two never got 6 series as SRT does. So yes SRT should be dropped from Test squad. Can you agree on this without qualifying it? xxxx

[Gambit]

Okay lets take that line(scoring runs) further. In his last 4 test series SRT has been 6th, 4th, 9th, 10th in batting averages. Do you think that is ample reason for him to be dropped from Test side?

And in terms of runs?

Why is SRT abused. Thats not how it always was, was it now? You have to realize that SRT abuse(from Indian fan) started circa 2003 WC final. Before that you would have a disgruntled Pakistani(or a West Indian Lara fan) criticize SRT but by and large SRT was always supported by Indian fans. Do you seriously think most of SRT critics today, say right here folks like Bumper, myself, Gator, were SRT baitor. Not exactly. But post 2003 he has SUCKED. And still has obtained the pass to play every game. Hence the criticism.

You missed my point. EVEN when other batsmen are discussed and their inadequacies highlighted, Tendulkar is dragged and abuse in that discussion. BTW do you think he is a passenger in the ODI side? Post 2003 he has pretty good in ODIs.

Says who? How exactly is it not highlighted when any Indian fan, regardless of the fact that he likes Dravid(or anyone else) over SRT, acknowledges SRT as the greatest LOI batsman?? I can quote you many books right from Guzzu Ezekiel to Henry Blofeld that celebrate SRT's innings of note. What else do you want?

I am talking of ODI finals here. Not his claim of being the greatest ODI batsmen ever. People say what has he ever won us in ODIs etc? That is the rebuttal to that argument. More matchwinning/top scoring knocks in finals that any other Indian batsmen ever(as far as I'm aware).

Now see here you go wrong. Why do you have to bash up other players with challenges like that?? Here let me give you 2 great innings right off the bat. 1) 1983 WC finals 38 by Srikkanth(highest in the game) 2) 1985 Benson Hedges 67 by Srikkanth(highest in the game) Those two innings, to me, shall rank much ahead of 10s of innings played by SRT(or others) simply because we were World Champions. If I use your logic I can ask you to show me 2 innings in WC(or similar) finals of note that SRT has done?? Can you? By the by check the numbers of Srikkanth in the finals sometime. He was really good in crunch games, though we often lost a few of those but surely we wasnt at fault.

When did I bash any other player when I asked you to show me Indian batsmen with more matchwinning/top scoring knocks in ODI finals? Bottomline is that there aren't any. You can take Cheeka's 38 over what ever you want. That's your choice. But the fact remains that SRT has more topscoring/match winning knocks in ODI finals.

Okay, what is a meanigful contribution? Am I fair to assume that anytime Sachin has scored less than say 44 runs it is meaningless? I mean since his average is 44 plus anyway surely one would expect him to score thereabouts for it to be of any meaning? xxx

Sure. Show me five games that India has won against Australia since his debut without any meaningful bat(>40) or ball contribution from Tendulkar.

[Gambit]

Impressive stats Gambit. But you are making a point that no one is even trying to deny -- That SRT has been our best ODI bat ever. Post 2000, our entire batting lineup inclusive of the big three has been crap, in the finals, which is reflected in our poor results. Was Yuvraj or Sehwag or Kaif more crappy than Tendulkar is really irrelevant, it doesnt prove or disprove anything. And the comparison is hardly fair, as you are comparing inexperienced players with a veteran, an all time great. As they attain the status of senior statesmen, the big three will have to take on the tough responsibilities. They need to lead from the front & show the youngsters the way it is done in big games. Is anyone questioning Gilly or Hayden or Ponting's place in Australia ? Hayden finished as the tourney's highest run getter in the world cup. McGrath was the MVP. Gilly played the innings of his lifetime in a world cup finals, absolutely murdering the best ever Lankan attack. Ponting keeps on piling the runs in both forms of the game. Am just too tired of watching our big three show up in one important game after another, only to have their a$$ handed to them. When they fail as frequently, as Pakistan does against India in a world cup, they give you an impression that they can never do it anymore. When such a time comes, they need to be phased out. Their past reputation, achievements, averages, man of the matches, yada yada yada is all great -- but irrelevant to the problem at hand. Whats the point in accomodating them, when they cannot even win you a triangular once in a while! (The last time we won a triangular was way back in 2002). And in the all important world cups, we couldnt even get past Bangladesh or a West Indies (Champions trophy). Barring some minor glories (Ind-Pak'04, Ind-Pak'05), in which youngsters played a significant hand, there is not much we can show interms of success in ODI cricket in the last 5 years. Such is the poverty of our ODI cricket. Its time to move on & look beyond the big three.

Bumper, first of all, do you remember an article I wrote at the dump about how we choke as a unit? Many people back then realised for the first time that SRT wasn't the only one failing. And this was after the Asia Cup final where he top scored with 78! Regarding the big three, I understand what you are saying and I share your frustration. Disappointment in final after final. But what I don't support is a blanket ban on the three in ODIs just because they are seniors and because they haven't won us a trophy since 2002. SRT and SCG are the best openers in the country. Dravid, up until this series, was the best number 5. They are in the team because they are among the best XI ODI players in the country and because they have been performing (1000+ for SRT and SCG this year). Their places should not be considered untouchable. Get Rohit Sharma for Dravid or GG/Veeru for SRT/SCG if they start to flounder. But do so on based on performances. Not because they are seniors or because they have been part of a Choke Machine since 2000.

[Lurker]

And in terms of runs?

In terms of runs he was second in SA and 3rd in England but cr@p in all the past series. Considering that the gentleman has averaged at about 6 or less(9th and 10th) in a game of 11 player teams I think he should be dropped from Test. Agree/disagree?

You missed my point. EVEN when other batsmen are discussed and their inadequacies highlighted, Tendulkar is dragged and abuse in that discussion. BTW do you think he is a passenger in the ODI side?

Yes I think he is a passenger in ODI side. I beleive Indian team is on the cusp where it has to be rebuilt. It always happens every 10-12 years. It happened in early 79/80 when finally a team of Sunny/Mohinder/Kapil/Vengsarkar took over from the old lot and they pretty much played till late 80s(Amarnath didnt get that much chance of course). By early 90s they had all retired. In certain cases they were even pushed to do so. Same is the situation right now, we will have to rebuild. We can either do that right now or forced to do it in 2008. As it is we are number 6th in ICC ratings, cant see why we should not start rebuilding.

I am talking of ODI finals here. Not his claim of being the greatest ODI batsmen ever. People say what has he ever won us in ODIs etc? That is the rebuttal to that argument. More matchwinning/top scoring knocks in finals that any other Indian batsmen ever(as far as I'm aware).

I am not even sure why I am asked to do the rebuttal here. But for whatever it is worth people dont remember the Asia Cups or Rothmans Cups, they remember the World Cups, Benson & Hedges and so on. I mean do you remember Arvinda De Silva's innings in some cr@ppy finals? Do you remember his exploits in 1996 WC finals? See the difference? Sachin has not done as good as he should have in WC, that doesnt diminish his greatness but I am sure he himself would have wanted to have a different record there.

When did I bash any other player when I asked you to show me Indian batsmen with more matchwinning/top scoring knocks in ODI finals? Bottomline is that there aren't any.

Bottomline is that we havent won many! So how do you expect such innings? As it is I gave you 2 of Srikkanth's innings right when it mattered. And for whatever it is worth I would take Cheeka's innings in WC(and WSC) finals over itsy-bitsy innings played by others in little known LOI championships.

Sure. Show me five games that India has won against Australia since his debut without any meaningful bat(>40) or ball contribution from Tendulkar.

I am not gonna bring the bowling here, thats like saying what if Srikkanth took a 3-12 and won India the game(forgetting the finals now), would that count as match winning? Okay some of such innings: http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65480.html http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65832.html http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/66137.html http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/66173.html http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64706.html Again this is not to knock SRT, my criticism has been for him to call it a day and let Indian rebuild and NOT on his class as a player. xx

[Lurker]

As they attain the status of senior statesmen, the big three will have to take on the tough responsibilities. They need to lead from the front & show the youngsters the way it is done in big games. Is anyone questioning Gilly or Hayden or Ponting's place in Australia ? Hayden finished as the tourney's highest run getter in the world cup. McGrath was the MVP. Gilly played the innings of his lifetime in a world cup finals, absolutely murdering the best ever Lankan attack. Ponting keeps on piling the runs in both forms of the game. Am just too tired of watching our big three show up in one important game after another, only to have their a$$ handed to them.

Very well said there Bumper. :hatsoff:

[Bumper]

Bumper, first of all, do you remember an article I wrote at the dump about how we choke as a unit? Many people back then realised for the first time that SRT wasn't the only one failing. And this was after the Asia Cup final where he top scored with 78! Regarding the big three, I understand what you are saying and I share your frustration. Disappointment in final after final. But what I don't support is a blanket ban on the three in ODIs just because they are seniors and because they haven't won us a trophy since 2002. SRT and SCG are the best openers in the country. Dravid, up until this series, was the best number 5. They are in the team because they are among the best XI ODI players in the country and because they have been performing (1000+ for SRT and SCG this year). Their places should not be considered untouchable. Get Rohit Sharma for Dravid or GG/Veeru for SRT/SCG if they start to flounder. But do so on based on performances. Not because they are seniors or because they have been part of a Choke Machine since 2000.

How do we know that these guys are among the best 11 players in the country, unless we try a Badri, Tiwary or a Rohit ? And guess who is blocking them from getting in ? With Dhoni, Yuvraj, Uthappa sealing their spots, whom do you drop to accomodate these youngsters ? Besides i dont agree that age should not be a factor for selection. Age is not a factor for selection, IF AND ONLY IF, seniors are significantly better than the juniors, as in the case of Australia. In our case, we have a team playing the seniors which is consistently losing on the big stage. So by continuing to play the older players, we offer ourselves no chance of improvement in the near future. Wasted years count for a lot. I cant believe we wasted five years on this parasite Kaif, keeping someone like Uthappa out. We cant afford to repeat such mistakes anymore. Dravid is not among the best 11 players based on current form. Ganguly has too limitations as an athelete, that he is a virtual burden on the team when he fails with the bat. I hate to pick on his last innings. Did you see how much he was dependent on boundaries to keep the scoreboard moving ? He would hit a boundary in the early part of the over & then waste 4-5 deliveries looking for more boundaries. His fielding and running between the wickets are bigger liabilities. Ganguly is just a stop-gap solution, I dont expect him to play ODIs a year from now. Tendulkar is the only player among the three who deserves to play in the team, IMO -- provided he can keep scoring. Because he is not such a big liability on the field & also he can bowl. His running between the wickets is decent & he can also rotate the strike. In short play the seniors only if they are part of the solution, not when they are part of the problem.

[Gambit]

In terms of runs he was second in SA and 3rd in England but cr@p in all the past series. Considering that the gentleman has averaged at about 6 or less(9th and 10th) in a game of 11 player teams I think he should be dropped from Test. Agree/disagree?

If you include KKD(1 test in RSA) and Kumble(!) and say that he averaged less than them, then you are making the same mistake that you accuse statisticians of doing i.e. relying on stats without context. Going by the past 2 test series against RSA and England, where he was decent in a team of batsmen with indifferent performances, I would say he keeps his place for now.

Yes I think he is a passenger in ODI side. I beleive Indian team is on the cusp where it has to be rebuilt. It always happens every 10-12 years. It happened in early 79/80 when finally a team of Sunny/Mohinder/Kapil/Vengsarkar took over from the old lot and they pretty much played till late 80s(Amarnath didnt get that much chance of course). By early 90s they had all retired. In certain cases they were even pushed to do so. Same is the situation right now, we will have to rebuild. We can either do that right now or forced to do it in 2008. As it is we are number 6th in ICC ratings, cant see why we should not start rebuilding.

On what basis? Passenger is someone who doesn't score and rides on past performances. But he has been our top run getter in each and every series since the World Cup! No team drops a player like that.

Bottomline is that we havent won many! So how do you expect such innings? As it is I gave you 2 of Srikkanth's innings right when it mattered. And for whatever it is worth I would take Cheeka's innings in WC(and WSC) finals over itsy-bitsy innings played by others in little known LOI championships.

Good for you. Then don't care about failures in itsy bitsy finals either. Be consistent.

I am not even sure why I am asked to do the rebuttal here. But for whatever it is worth people dont remember the Asia Cups or Rothmans Cups, they remember the World Cups, Benson & Hedges and so on. I mean do you remember Arvinda De Silva's innings in some cr@ppy finals? Do you remember his exploits in 1996 WC finals? See the difference? Sachin has not done as good as he should have in WC, that doesnt diminish his greatness but I am sure he himself would have wanted to have a different record there.

You poked fun at SRT by posting stats in finals but then I showed that he outperforms every single Indian batsman by a mile in ODI finals. Agree or disagree? As for your second statement that I have bolded, I'm sorry but are you serious??! The guy was the leading run getter in the 1996 world cup and the 2003 world cup. He has the most world cup runs ever by a country mile! The 2003 world cup final was lost by insipid bowling and the 1996 semi final by hijda batting by others despite SRT's 65. You are the first person ever to have said SRT has not done as good as he should have in world cups!

I am not gonna bring the bowling here, thats like saying what if Srikkanth took a 3-12 and won India the game(forgetting the finals now), would that count as match winning? Okay some of such innings: http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65480.html http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65832.html http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/66137.html http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/66173.html http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64706.html Again this is not to knock SRT, my criticism has been for him to call it a day and let Indian rebuild and NOT on his class as a player. xx

2nd link he took 5/32 which won us the game. Not 3/12 or 2/4 but 5 for 32. I am sorry but India would not have won that game without SRT as commentators acknowledged after that game IIRC. Our best fast bowler ever Kapil doesn't even have a matchwinning 5fer in ODIs against any team! So in effect, you found just 4 games without meaningful contributions from SRT. Which proves my point that without SRT's performances, win against Australia are few and far between. By the way, that 38 in the ICCKO is the stuff of legends as SRT sledged McGrath after hitting him for 6s. Even Sreesanth wouldn't dare do that. :D

[Mr. Wicket]

That 38 in the ICC game played a major part in helping India win the game. It got India off to a superb start in tough conditions with the ball doing a bit, and rattled Australia's best bowler, causing him to lose his nerve on a rare occasion and lose effectiveness completely. McGrath had beaten the bat a few times early IIRC, before Tendulkar took charge with his onslaught. Even when he fell, a great deal of damage had been done - both on the scorecard and psychologically, which allowed India to build to a winning total.

[Lurker]

If you include KKD(1 test in RSA) and Kumble(!) and say that he averaged less than them, then you are making the same mistake that you accuse statisticians of doing i.e. relying on stats without context. Going by the past 2 test series against RSA and England, where he was decent in a team of batsmen with indifferent performances, I would say he keeps his place for now.

Then we shall have to disagree. I dont see any reason why a batsman should be kept in the team when he has essentially failed in past 6 series. I also would like to say categorically that had it not been SRT and some other batsman then he would have been on his way out long back. In short this is purely a case of double standards.

On what basis? Passenger is someone who doesn't score and rides on past performances. But he has been our top run getter in each and every series since the World Cup! No team drops a player like that.

No he is not. I was surprised to make you see that statement categorically and so I checked. I remember distinctly how he failed, or atleast did not perform as good as is his norm, in Pakistan and against Pakistan at home(2004) and he was massively outscored by other players. I am sure there may be other series too.

You poked fun at SRT by posting stats in finals but then I showed that he outperforms every single Indian batsman by a mile in ODI finals. Agree or disagree?

Disagree. I clearly mentioned the timeline 2000-2001. I also suggested how Sachin fans shall rake up past records now. Look let me repeat again, Sachin's past is NOT under scanner here. It is futile to repeat the same line that he was best bat in the world in 90s. I have compared Yuvraj in finals vis a vis Sachin in the finals in the same time period (2000-2001) and their stats do not cover either of them with any glory(18 for Yuvi and 27 for Sachin). Agree/disagree?

As for your second statement that I have bolded, I'm sorry but are you serious??! The guy was the leading run getter in the 1996 world cup and the 2003 world cup. He has the most world cup runs ever by a country mile! The 2003 world cup final was lost by insipid bowling and the 1996 semi final by hijda batting by others despite SRT's 65.

Ummm okay but arent we discussing the finals here? I mean that seems to be the whole issue at hand, that Yuvraj chokes in finals while Sachin hasnt or something like that. I would agree that Sachin did play a good innings against SL in semis and yes that loss truly sucked. But semis is still semis and I am sure Yuvi has played some half-decent innings in semis too. Here's a quick example. http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/66192.html

2nd link he took 5/32 which won us the game. No 3/12 or 2/4 but 5 for 32. I am sorry but India would not have won that game without SRT as commentators acknowledged after that game IIRC. So in effect, you found just 4 games without meaningful contributions from SRT. Which proves my point that without SRT's performances, win against Australia are few and far between. By the way, that 38 in the ICCKO is the stuff of legends as SRT sledged McGrath after hitting him for 6s. Even Sreesanth wouldn't dare do that. :D

Alright if that makes you happy Gambo. I personally wouldnt count that as a contribution as we are talking clearly about batting here. xx

[The Outsider]

I am not gonna bring the bowling here, thats like saying what if Srikkanth took a 3-12 and won India the game(forgetting the finals now), would that count as match winning? Okay some of such innings: http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/e...tch/65480.html http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/e...tch/65832.html http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/e...tch/66137.html http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/e...tch/66173.html http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/e...tch/64706.html Again this is not to knock SRT, my criticism has been for him to call it a day and let Indian rebuild and NOT on his class as a player.

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: OMFG!!! This is the list you came up with after such deep research!!!:cantstop::cantstop: One of them he has 5/32 and in two of them he is the second highest scorer from India. It probably doesn't meet Gambit's criteria of 40 runs by a couple of runs, but even you got to admit this list is hillarious!!:hysterical:

[Mr. Wicket]

Alright if that makes you happy Gambo. I personally wouldnt count that as a contribution as we are talking clearly about batting here.

We are talking about contributions to the team in winning causes / under pressure. The batting thing just stands out more, because Sachin's excelled with the bat, and Yuseless has done precisely sod all with the ball. But in a topic discussing choking potential/the ability to deliver on the big occasion, you can't write off that as a failure because SRT made a few runs before taking 5/32.

[Mr. Wicket]

BTW Lurker, If Yuvraj has any bowling performances of note against Australia, feel free to include and list them. :D

[Lurker]

2nd link he took 5/32 which won us the game. Not 3/12 or 2/4 but 5 for 32. I am sorry but India would not have won that game without SRT as commentators acknowledged after that game IIRC. Our best fast bowler ever Kapil doesn't even have a matchwinning 5fer in ODIs against any team!

That exactly is my point about stats.:P The great Kapil Dev has 1 5 wicket haul in LOI as does Imran Khan while Ian Botham has none. Now look at some of these players from modern era: Tendular: 2 5 wicket haul Jayasurya 4 5 wickets haul By the way Imran Khan's solitary 5 wicket haul was 6-14 against India at Sharjah where we beat them after being dismissed for 125 or so... xxx

[Lurker]

BTW Lurker, If Yuvraj has any bowling performances of note against Australia, feel free to include and list them.

Nah..but I would probably add 20 runs to his average per innings for his fielding...if you insist Salil.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Mr. Wicket]

Nah..but I would probably add 20 runs to his average per innings for his fielding...if you insist Salil.

Can you explain the logic, and also then uggest a similar number to add for Tendulkar, who until a few years ago was an outstanding fielder, and now still remains very sharp?