Bongosamaj Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 arent you aware that Gandhi became unpatriotic the moment his ship landed in Capetown and it automatically reversed when he came back to mumbai More like 'Gandhi was not a patriot until he got chucked out of the carriage- just an ordinary man looking out for his interests like you,me and all'.
Lurker Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 In this era of globalisation, I guess people want to keep their options open vis a vis green card etc. And plus there's dual c'ship available as well. But I specifically talking about someone like you(gathering from what you've said in the past). Someone who's outside India for work, gaining intl experience and planning to go back in the near future. Yes the point of Globalization is very pertinent. In this era if a society chooses to stay insulated that shall spell doom for itself and its citizens. To keep the options open ala Green Card is not as bad as taking a citizenship(in my opinion, I know you love to hear that lol), but it still shows a sense of doubt over the confidence in your country. For me, they shouldn't be classed as Indians and hence any show of patriotism towards India from them isn't really apt as their allegiances should lie with their adopted country. My thoughts too. In fact my thoughts are very similar to yours about NRI. And yes those that have traded in their Indian passports for an American version are American citizen of Indian origin, I wouldnt worry about their patriotism but I have a feeling they know where they stand on the issue. xxx
Gambit Posted November 14, 2007 Author Posted November 14, 2007 No' date=' that is the FUNDAMENTAL bottomline to 99.999% NRIs who go overseas for jobs/stay on after education.[/quote'] Not true at all. The number of Indian students returning from the UK/US after education within 2-3 years is on the rise. Also, in this age of globalisation, international experience counts for a lot which is why some get a few years of intl experience under their belt and come back. When you leave the country for money, as most NRIs do, you have no claims to patriotism, unless it is for the country you are residing in. Thats the bottomline and saying your patriotic an Indian you are when you don't even live in India is as cut and dried as it gets for hypocritical. Wrong again. Your logic that Indians can't be patriotic outside India because they can't do things Indians living in India can was proven false by me as I told you that they can create wealth and employment in India, vote etc etc. By your logic, kids leaving their parents' city to work elsewhere shouldn't profess love for their parents and any show of affection is hypocritical. What trashy logic. Don't twist my words- i said those who leave the country for money. Which happens to be 99.999999999% of NRIs. Which is pretty silly logic anyway. And furthermore, you are out of your depth here- you are commenting on the nature of NRIs, when i doubt you've had interactions with more than a handful of them at best. Let's hear about their nature and insecurities. Like I said earlier, there are other NRIs here and let's see how right you are in your 'observations'.
Gambit Posted November 14, 2007 Author Posted November 14, 2007 arent you aware that Gandhi became unpatriotic the moment his ship landed in Capetown and it automatically reversed when he came back to mumbai ... :cantstop: :hysterical::giggle:
Bongosamaj Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 Last time I checked that carriage was IN South Africa .. but ofcourse you should know better oh Oracle :giggle: Yes i know that..doesnt change what i said.
Gambit Posted November 14, 2007 Author Posted November 14, 2007 Yes the point of Globalization is very pertinent. In this era if a society chooses to stay insulated that shall spell doom for itself and its citizens. To keep the options open ala Green Card is not as bad as taking a citizenship(in my opinion' date=' I know you love to hear that lol), but it still shows a sense of doubt over the confidence in your country. [/quote'] Regarding Green Card, I totally agree with you. When it comes to India, I don't think logically. For me, there is no question of even taking PR/GC. I don't want to keep any options open. India is the only option for me. My thoughts too. In fact my thoughts are very similar to yours about NRI. And yes those that have traded in their Indian passports for an American version are American citizen of Indian origin, I wouldnt worry about their patriotism but I have a feeling they know where they stand on the issue. xxxYeah. Agree with that. Lekin dual hua to? :D
Bongosamaj Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 The number of Indian students returning from the UK/US after education within 2-3 years is on the rise. MINISCULE compared to the number of Indians leaving to work overseas or fail to return. Also, in this age of globalisation, international experience counts for a lot which is why some get a few years of intl experience under their belt and come back. True. Which is why talk about patriotism AFTER you've come back to India and contributed in some tangiable way. Otherwise you are just hot air. Which is pretty silly logic anyway. Money=1 not compatible with 'patriotism'. Like I said earlier, there are other NRIs here and let's see how right you are in your 'observations'. Yes- lets see how many NRIs manage to fit in the culture and form deep social relations with natives of their 'immigrated country'.
Bongosamaj Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 . Lekin dual hua to? Good point...so what happens if its dual citizenship ? Allegiance to both or allegience to none ? If its both, and your two nations go to war against each other...who do you support ?
Lurker Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 Yeah. Agree with that. Lekin dual hua to? :D That would bring Indians closer to the Pakistani mentality then :D. Personally I wouldnt want it to happen. It would be a slap on the face of all those who have chose to stayed back. Just to give a quick example I have friends who work at ISRO. The only reason I got into computers and they couldnt was because they did not have a good grasp of English even though academically they were better. Now they have become senior guys at ISRO making India proud and sometimes when I raise the same question - move to NASA - they would not take it. I cant imagine a situation where many unknown Indians like them worked hard with little resources, did all of us(even the expats) proud only to be told that they, and those that left the shores and traded in their passports, are considered same. In the end it will boil down to human selfishness, always does. xxx
Gambit Posted November 14, 2007 Author Posted November 14, 2007 MINISCULE compared to the number of Indians leaving to work overseas or fail to return. Numbers on the up like I said. I know lots of techies who have relocated to India after spending 3-4 years in the west gaining experience. Those who fail to return take up citizenship and aren't NRIs anymore. True. Which is why talk about patriotism AFTER you've come back to India and contributed in some tangiable way. Otherwise you are just hot air. As mentioned to you before, there are lots of ways to contribute living outside India. Read previous posts for that. You seem to have this twisted logic stuck that you can only contribute by staying in India. Suppose your parents house gets struck by lightning and the roof is destroyed. You are away but call up the maintenance guy and ask him to bill you for the work and you get it done. Exactly the same thing. If you can't see that, then you are too binary for this discussion. Yes- lets see how many NRIs manage to fit in the culture and form deep social relations with natives of their 'immigrated country'. So go on then. Tell us about your 'observations' in detail.
Holysmoke Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 As for the OP...Dont know cant say. I might have even been a better batsman than Bradman. :D
Bongosamaj Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 That would bring Indians closer to the Pakistani mentality then :D. Personally I wouldnt want it to happen. It would be a slap on the face of all those who have chose to stayed back. Just to give a quick example I have friends who work at ISRO. The only reason I got into computers and they couldnt was because they did not have a good grasp of English even though academically they were better. Now they have become senior guys at ISRO making India proud and sometimes when I raise the same question - move to NASA - they would not take it. I cant imagine a situation where many unknown Indians like them worked hard with little resources, did all of us(even the expats) proud only to be told that they, and those that left the shores and traded in their passports, are considered same. In the end it will boil down to human selfishness, always does. xxx Agreed...i do like the system India has now with the whole PIO thing. Dual citizenship will breed the kind of mentality we see in Pakistan, one of the major reasons (as you quite astutely spotted, Lurker) for their far more chaotic nation. This PIO card terms are both sensible and a perfect medium between the two extremes.
Lurker Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 Agreed...i do like the system India has now with the whole PIO thing. Dual citizenship will breed the kind of mentality we see in Pakistan' date= one of the major reasons for their far more chaotic nation. This PIO card terms are both sensible and a perfect medium between the two extremes. I do think this dual nationality has adversly affected Pakistan. Basically what has happened is that anyone who can afford to leave Pakistan does so. There is no concept of nation first, both from a religious angle as also the nationalistic notion. If it goes the same for India the results would not be very different. If anything it may even act as a spur for people to leave India, specially in certain parts of the country. Make no mistakes there are ample Indians ready to jump ship. If you look at articles written by Pakistani authors, or on Pakistani websites, you will often see expats suggesting "Do you still want to go to Pakistan?" OR "Why I am thankful for my parents to give me a better life in England" and so on. And the situation would hardly different in India. Of course if India continues to progress as it is doing maybe the next generation shall have the material benefits in India itself! Have to wait and watch. xxx
Bongosamaj Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 Make no mistakes there are ample Indians ready to jump ship. Good. I say we let them. Long term dividends to India will be huge. I think Indians just don't realize the significance of having long term windfalls from encouraging immigration-both in and out of the country. You find 2nd/3rd gen. immigrants, for example desis, Chinese, Japanese, British, etc. that they present unique benifits- they are part of Canada, yet they bring with them unique soft-spots for the country of origin- some in ethnic pride (which IMO is a bit dumb) others in form of cultural exposure of the homeland brought here. Public here are much more friendlier with immigration than in the states for example. What ends up happening is that the two countries start getting pulled closer simply due to this unique 2nd/3rd/4th gen. bond aspect. In the globalized age, silly ideas of patriotism need to perish- all borders are transitional- India's borders 200 yrs from now won't be the same, neither will be America's. But if you care about the PEOPLE, its a good idea IMO to think about forming such societerial intermixing and cultural bonding that goes beyond mere imitation of one another. having said all that, i may move back to India sometime in the future- probably for retirement... or live there for a short while if i get one of the super-lucrative jobs in India ( there are tech firms offering 70-80K to people with more experience than me to work in India for 3-4 yr contracts. Thats a sheer killing in terms of savings IMO). IMO, as far as the mainstream culture goes, India is getting too caught up in the head-rush of its ongoing meteoric rise ( If you think about it, the country is doing rather well- In terms of technological achievements, we can claim genuinely to be amongst the few, our economy is one of the fastest-improving ones in the world and we are doing this essentially after over a thousand years of systematic destruction of society if most of India is counted. Not bad for just 60 years for where we stand now). On a societerial aspect, I think Indian society has to get more liberal in its thinking and less protectionist. Trust me, India's cultural diversity and pillars are very strong and if anything, Indian culture has incredible potential to explode on the world scene if only India encouraged immigration. People there who worry about our culture being threatened by western elements don't really realize how much each culture can teach the other if it wern't for the arrogance of both cultures.
Lurker Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 Good. I say we let them. Long term dividends to India will be huge. I wish it was as simple as that Bongo. Immigration, specially the kind of mass emigration that I have in mind, is always bad. You have experiences of Canada welcoming migrants but surely that is also due to its Geographic location. I mean take across the border(USA), are Americans very welcoming to Hispanics? No. And before you go ballistic on USA have a food for thought for India being not very welcoming to Muslim migrants from BD either(Tamil refugees from Lanka as well). That plus the fact that immigration en-masse always gives a country a bad name. Why would I want that for India? xxxx
Bongosamaj Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 I wish it was as simple as that Bongo. Immigration, specially the kind of mass emigration that I have in mind, is always bad. You have experiences of Canada welcoming migrants but surely that is also due to its Geographic location. I mean take across the border(USA), are Americans very welcoming to Hispanics? No. And before you go ballistic on USA have a food for thought for India being not very welcoming to Muslim migrants from BD either(Tamil refugees from Lanka as well). That plus the fact that immigration en-masse always gives a country a bad name. Why would I want that for India? xxxx No, i don't mean immigration like millions pouring in with no procedures followed- i do mean encouraging immigration through legal channels and in not so huge numbers to one place. But 40-50 thousand Indians showing up per year to Canada, Australia, US, EU, Brazil etc. ? Thats not bad and neither is it insignificant either- that sort of numbers mean MILLIONS immigrating in the span of a generation or so...The Chinese understand this sort of long-term outlook where they see the windfalls in terms of 50-60 yrs from now. IMO, India can profit well from this but they key is making education of higher quality and more accessible to the masses.
Guest dada_rocks Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 As long as immigration happens through legal route there is nothing to worry about apropos demographic shift problem.. And no pakistan problme is not its dual citizen how many of dual citizen go blow themselves up , I guess nto may if any.. it's natives who are fcuked up by their religiois education and cultural upbringing ... Anyway so far I have gotten zero reaosn to ask this question with NRI angle.. as are parasite non caring resident indians going around giving hardly a damn about country so are non resident ones .. as there are also patriotic residents one simiarlry there are patritic non-resident ones.. have not got even a single reaosn so far for singling out out any group for being less or more patriotic..
Lurker Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 have not got even a single reaosn so far for singling out out any group for being less or more patriotic.. Maybe because this a topic that simply can not be argued? You either feel a certain way or you don't. By the way a question for you - Do you think females in general are much more ambivalent towards the notion of country? I mean I hear guys talk about going back but girls really wouldnt care. And while for a guy it is a big deal to say leave India and move to US just for marriage, for females it is considered the norm. So do females, in general, dont give a damn to notion of nation? :deal:
Bongosamaj Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 So do females, in general, dont give a damn to notion of nation? Females in general tend to be more practical and common-sense oriented than men, believe it or not. What you said is mostly true i find.
Rajiv Posted November 14, 2007 Posted November 14, 2007 Maybe because this a topic that simply can not be argued? You either feel a certain way or you don't. By the way a question for you - Do you think females in general are much more ambivalent towards the notion of country? I mean I hear guys talk about going back but girls really wouldnt care. And while for a guy it is a big deal to say leave India and move to US just for marriage, for females it is considered the norm. So do females, in general, dont give a damn to notion of nation? :deal: Very true, but for Indian women is mostly - whatever the husband is! don't you think
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