BBC Greatest ODI XI

[Marut]

I think it's you who has the problem if you rate Dhoni ahead of the Destroyer..

Two players averaging 35 and 52 respectively. It is like comparing Sachin and Atapattu in tests. Gilchrist was a big match player, but he was otherwise just a good ODI batsman careerwise, while Dhoni is an ATG.

[MCGGG]

Two players averaging 35 and 52 respectively. It is like comparing Sachin and Atapattu in tests. Gilchrist was a big match player' date=' but he was otherwise just a good ODI batsman careerwise, while Dhoni is an ATG.[/quote'] Gilchrit didn't hide down the order, he opened, and he was a vastly better wkt keeper, and Dhonis stats are padded through batting on Indian roads with 15 metre boundarys.

[Precambrian]

Gilchrit didn't hide down the order' date=' he opened, and he was a vastly better wkt keeper, and Dhonis stats are padded through batting on Indian roads with 15 metre boundarys.[/quote'] What's Gilly record in India? Gilly was a glorified slugger who had just one approach to his batting, regardless of match situation. And you should be the last person to talk about roads. Given how your pitches have behaved, putting national highways to shame.

[Marut]

Klusener doesnt belong at #7 but Dev does? I cant believe this. Everyone is allowed his POV but blind nationalism is silly.

Klusener was a slightly better bat than Kapil (at least on stats even though Kapil had better strike rates in a far more conservative batting era) but Kapil was way ahead as a bowler. Klusener was considered one of the most expensive bowlers of the 90s-early 00s era, while Kapil was among the miserly bowlers of the 80s, even better than Akram and Imran. In today's equivalent Klusener would be a bowler with a 6 ER, all this when bowling alongside Donald, Fanie, Pollock etc!! When taken with the fact that Dev played twice as long as Klusener and played four times as many tests as Klusener, it is almost a no contest between them.

[MCGGG]

What's Gilly record in India? Gilly was a glorified slugger who had just one approach to his batting, regardless of match situation. And you should be the last person to talk about roads. Given how your pitches have behaved, putting national highways to shame.

Our pitches weren't roads back in Gillys day.

[Marut]

Gilchrit didn't hide down the order' date=' he opened, and he was a vastly better wkt keeper, and Dhonis stats are padded through batting on Indian roads with 15 metre boundarys.[/quote'] Opening is the easiest batting slot in ODIs since the mid 90s. Flat pitches, new ball coming onto the bat nicely, absolutely no pressure situation walking in at identical situation of 0-0 every time. Dhoni has had to walk in many times with 4 down for <100 and build the innings. Gilchrist never had to deal with such pressures, he had just one blind gear, that is it.

[Precambrian]

Gilchrit didn't hide down the order' date=' he opened, and he was a vastly better wkt keeper, and Dhonis stats are padded through batting on Indian roads with 15 metre boundarys.[/quote'] Dhoni averages 49, 82 and 70 as opener, one down and two down. So your point being? Dhoni also has a much better average than Gilly even in Australia. Gilly s average in so called 'roads with 15 mtr boundaries' is just 32. How come? As a keeper, Golly might be slightly better to fast bowlers. But as a stumper, Dhoni is miles better. Lol, it just makes no sense continuing this debate really.

[MCGGG]

Dhoni averages 49, 82 and 70 as opener, one down and two down. So your point being? Dhoni also has a much better average than Gilly even in Australia. Gilly s average in so called 'roads with 15 mtr boundaries' is just 32. How come? As a keeper, Golly might be slightly better to fast bowlers. But as a stumper, Dhoni is miles better. Lol, it just makes no sense continuing this debate really.

You can't use selective stats because Gilchrist batted in the hardest position for the vast majority of his career, Dhoni has cashed in down the order. Bevan has a similar record to Dhoni, but no one would suggest he was a better player than Gilly.

[MCGGG]

Gilchrist only had 11no innings in ODIs due to him opening, Dhoni was NO 62 times, and you really want to compare averages?

[Lord]

Gilchrist only had 11no innings in ODIs due to him opening' date=' Dhoni was NO 62 times, and you really want to compare averages?[/quote'] opener gets to bat more overs

[Marut]

Gilchrist only had 11no innings in ODIs due to him opening' date=' Dhoni was NO 62 times, and you really want to compare averages?[/quote'] How many #6 batsmen have 50+ averages? OTOH, a lot of openers have much higher averages compare to Gilly.

[Marut]

You can't use selective stats because Gilchrist batted in the hardest position for the vast majority of his career, Dhoni has cashed in down the order. Bevan has a similar record to Dhoni, but no one would suggest he was a better player than Gilly.

Could be because Bevan had much inferior strike rates compared to Gilly. But that is not true of Dhoni, even taking into account the change of eras. Dhoni is one of the rare ODI batsmen with the combo 50+ average and 90 S/R and you want to compare him with an ODI player who averages less than 70%.

[MCGGG]

How many #6 batsmen have 50+ averages? OTOH' date=' a lot of openers have much higher averages compare to Gilly.[/quote'] How many openers scored 9,500 runs and struck at 96? Gilchrist to this day still has 1500 more career runs than Dhoni, Gilly played around 30 more games. Do you honestly think Dhoni would have his current average/SR if he opened the batting for his entire career? Christ, imagine Gillys SR if he batted 6 lol, his test SR at 6 is above 80 FFS, while averaging 48.

[Precambrian]

You can't use selective stats because Gilchrist batted in the hardest position for the vast majority of his career, Dhoni has cashed in down the order. Bevan has a similar record to Dhoni, but no one would suggest he was a better player than Gilly.

I am not using selective stats dude. If anything you are the one who is doing that by a. referring to Gilchrist opening b. Indian pitches I proved that statistically, a. Dhoni has performed much better than Gilly as opener/top order batsman b. On Indian as well as Australian pitches Bevan is a much better ODI batsman than Gilchrist. The number of times he saved Aussies' **** is unbelievable. Gilly never had to shepherd a chase, knowing that he had likes of Ponting, Bevan, etc coming after him, all he had to do was throw bat at ball. Hence the term glorified slogger. Dhoni, on the other hand, transformed India from being an also - ran, a side that consistently choked on big occasions, couldn't chase and literally started and ended with Tendulkar to one that is a beast in the matches that matter. Please disprove me with facts boss.

[Precambrian]

How many openers scored 9,500 runs and struck at 96? Gilchrist to this day still has 1500 more career runs than Dhoni, Gilly played around 30 more games. Do you honestly think Dhoni would have his current average/SR if he opened the batting for his entire career? Christ, imagine Gillys SR if he batted 6 lol, his test SR at 6 is above 80 FFS, while averaging 48.

Dude, you know someone called Sanath Jayasurya? He averaged 35 as an opener, with a strike rate of 93 through his career, also made around 2500-3000 runs more than your Gilly. That too having started his career much before Gilly. There is every reason statistically to assume Dhoni would've done a superb job had he be opening. Why? Look at the records, As a top order batsman (2,3,4), Dhoni's numbers are staggering - 2001 runs from just 36 matches at an average of 74 and a S/R of 100.6. That's not a small sample by any means. In fact his average comes down as he move down the order really. But he sacrificed his flair for the benefit of the team, by taking up additional responsibilities and solidifying our middle order with Yuvraj and later Raina. He could play at any spot literally in ODIs.

[Marut]

How many openers scored 9,500 runs and struck at 96? Gilchrist to this day still has 1500 more career runs than Dhoni, Gilly played around 30 more games. Do you honestly think Dhoni would have his current average/SR if he opened the batting for his entire career? Christ, imagine Gillys SR if he batted 6 lol, his test SR at 6 is above 80 FFS, while averaging 48.

You are just talking quantity over quality. An opener getting 9500 runs in 300 odd ODIs is not a big deal in modern cricket. Averaging 50 in ODIs has been always been a big deal. Gilly could bat without any pressure knowing that Punter, Martyn, Bevan, Symonds, Hussey etc came into bat at his fall. Gilly is so behind Dhoni in ODIs that I don't think there is anything to debate here. Bevan vs Dhoni is a better comparison. Dhoni vs Ponting is a better comparison. Dhoni vs Hussey is a better comparison. Gilchrist would probably score over many batsmen with better averages due to his keeping - but since Dhoni is also a world class keeper, Dhoni would leave Gilly in a distant shade as far as overall game is concerned.

[Gambit]

Only Indians would rate Dhoni over Gilchrist like they would Viv over Sachin and Dravid over Ponting.

[Sachin=GOD]

Only Indians would rate Dhoni over Gilchrist like they would Viv over Sachin and Dravid over Ponting.

Some Indians not only consider Dhoni to be better than Gilchrist but they also consider him to be the greatest ODI cricketer of all time.

[Marut]

Only Indians would rate Dhoni over Gilchrist like they would Viv over Sachin and Dravid over Ponting.

I am not even a Dhoni fanboy. Checking out my previous posts on Dhoni will make this clear. But facts are facts. Points in Gilly's favour: 1. Slightly better against pace bowling due to his upbringing on bouncier wickets. 2. Better keeper against pacers for the same reasons. 3. Big match player 4. Huge strike rate Points in Dhoni's favour: 1. Better against spin bowling and better on slow tracks, which are the norm for ODIs. 2. Cool as a cucumber and one of the greatest ODI batsman and finisher of all times. 3. ATG ODI captaincy material - has more titles than most other Indian captains put together. 4. Huge batting average with a very healthy strike rate and highest for his batting slot, one of the very few ODI players to average 50+ over a decade long career. 5. Took an average bowling side to the top of test and ODI rankings and world titles, something which many captains with more talented team members could not achieve. 6. Great keeper against spinners and his stumping ability is close to legendary. Those claiming Gilly is better must prove it with facts, mere sentiments won't do. Gilchrist's WC exploits are what that make him a natural choice in World XI teams. But if we take out those three knocks, Dhoni is so far ahead of Gilly that even a debate is not necessary to settle this. Dhoni is as good or better than Gilly under pressure and there is no reason why he can't play a winning WC knock again, provided he gets the chance. Dhoni as captain + batsman + keeper is miles ahead of Gilly as keeper + batsman.

[Precambrian]

I am not even a Dhoni fanboy. Checking out my previous posts on Dhoni will make this clear. But facts are facts. Points in Gilly's favour: 1. Slightly better against pace bowling due to his upbringing on bouncier wickets. 2. Better keeper against pacers for the same reasons. 3. Big match player 4. Huge strike rate Points in Dhoni's favour: 1. Better against spin bowling and better on slow tracks, which are the norm for ODIs. 2. Cool as a cucumber and one of the greatest ODI batsman and finisher of all times. 3. ATG ODI captaincy material - has more titles than most other Indian captains put together. 4. Huge batting average with a very healthy strike rate and highest for his batting slot, one of the very few ODI players to average 50+ over a decade long career. 5. Took an average bowling side to the top of test and ODI rankings and world titles, something which many captains with more talented team members could not achieve. 6. Great keeper against spinners and his stumping ability is close to legendary. Those claiming Gilly is better must prove it with facts, mere sentiments won't do. Gilchrist's WC exploits are what that make him a natural choice in World XI teams. But if we take out those three knocks, Dhoni is so far ahead of Gilly that even a debate is not necessary to settle this. Dhoni is as good or better than Gilly under pressure and there is no reason why he can't play a winning WC knock again, provided he gets the chance. Dhoni as captain + batsman + keeper is miles ahead of Gilly as keeper + batsman.

While I appreciate Gilly being a big match player, that by no means make him any better than Dhoni in that aspect either. He played one of the best knocks in a world cup final, that too when the pressure was at its peak, chasing. Further, Dhoni isn't just a slow/low specialist. He averages over 50 in NZ and Aus, and a respectable 37 in England. The only real place he struggled is in SA (25 avg). Dhoni has one of the best overall ODI records anyone can hope to get. Has scored runs in all positions, all roles, blaster to accumulator, free flowing batsman to pressure-soaker master pacer. I still don't understand what those idiots were smoking at BBC while selecting this XI