Marut Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Exactly that's why most lower middle order batsmen have pretty good strike rates these days. I've no doubt that Dhoni can hit boundaries but has he done that against great bowlers? No, because he hardly played against them. So the next thing we have to see is, has he done that against good bowling sides in unfavourable conditions? No, because SA and Aus were the only decent bowling units of his era and he failed in those parts of the world. Even if you take his home and away records against both SA and Aus you'll see his average and strike rates dipping a whole 10 clicks. That's massive. Almost all his memorable inns have come either against SL, Pak and a few here and there in SC. Even if you manage to find some, mostly he would've played second fiddle to Yuvraj or Raina. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Dhoni had a big disadvantage compared to Bevan. Bevan never had to face McGrath or Warne and Dhoni never had the opportunity to feast on Indian trundlers. The biggest difference between Bevan and Dhoni is when they play a big innings. Bevan has a career S/R of 78 for his fifty plus scores while Dhoni is at 101 for his 50+ scores. Even accounting for the eras, Dhoni has many extra gears to his batting compared to Bevan. Since we are comparing them as finishers, this difference in the ability to accelerate the innings is crucial. When your team requires 150 off 30, Bevan and Dhoni would both do the job. But when your team requires 150 off 20 or 100 of 10 only Dhoni can do the job - this is true even after accounting for their eras.
Marut Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Get used to it when posting here' date=' Indian fans are borderline delusional when it comes to their players, [b']many rate Dhoni ahead of Gilchrist as a wkt keeper batsman, I kid you not!! Yeah there is no point comparing a batsman averaging 35 against a batsman averaging 52. That is like comparing some one like Aravinda de Silva (who has a fearsome reputation but does not have the numbers to back up his reputation) with Richards (who has the numbers to back up his reputation).
kevinpp24 Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Best Finisher Dhoni had a big disadvantage compared to Bevan. Bevan never had to face McGrath or Warne and Dhoni never had the opportunity to feast on Indian trundlers. The biggest difference between Bevan and Dhoni is when they play a big innings. Bevan has a career S/R of 78 for his fifty plus scores while Dhoni is at 101 for his 50+ scores. Even accounting for the eras, Dhoni has many extra gears to his batting compared to Bevan. Since we are comparing them as finishers, this difference in the ability to accelerate the innings is crucial. When your team requires 150 off 30, Bevan and Dhoni would both do the job. But when your team requires 150 off 20 or 100 of 10 only Dhoni can do the job - this is true even after accounting for their eras. I don't think Dhoni ever done that without an allrounder or at least an able batsman at the other end. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sachin=GOD Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Raina is very underrated as a finisher in ODIs...
Marut Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 I don't think Dhoni ever done that without an allrounder or at least an able batsman at the other end. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Very few batsmen have played such knocks and only occasionally. And that is not entirely within a batsman's control either - some teams have stronger tail. But Dhoni has played the most significant finishing role many times. Here are a few of them. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/236809.html http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/237571.html http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/433606.html http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/225437.html Can Bevan even dream of playing this? http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/223634.html
MCGGG Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Yeah there is no point comparing a batsman averaging 35 against a batsman averaging 52. That is like comparing some one like Aravinda de Silva (who has a fearsome reputation but does not have the numbers to back up his reputation) with Richards (who has the numbers to back up his reputation). And there no point comparing the averages of an opener and a no6 who has over 60 NOs. Gilly finsihed at the start of the innings, he didn't need to bat at 6.
kevinpp24 Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Very few batsmen have played such knocks and only occasionally. And that is not entirely within a batsman's control either - some teams have stronger tail. But Dhoni has played the most significant finishing role many times. Here are a few of them. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/236809.html http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/237571.html http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/433606.html http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/225437.html Can Bevan even dream of playing this? http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/223634.html Yep marvellous. But you still not getting my point. All of them in SC. He hardly did anything like that away from SC. Even if he had either it would've been against a poor bowling line up or a lost cause. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
putrevus Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Bevan averaged 27 in SL against all opponents in 20 matches, that does not make Bevan any less player. Purely on ability Dhoni has lot more to offer than Bevan and it is not even close.
Sid Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 I am sorry, Bevan is an ordinary ODI batsman. I'd rate ME Waugh, Gilly, Hayden, Ponting, Symonds et al ahead of Bevan as ODI batsmen. That's almost the entire team Bevan palyed with. This guy would struggle to make it to the top 5 Aussie batsmen of his own era. If you are comparing Gilly to Dhoni, then i'd agree with you. I dont have to look at stats, regardless of what the numbers say, i'd admit Gilly is the better ODI bat. Bevan is not good enough. Post of the thread.
Marut Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 And there no point comparing the averages of an opener and a no6 who has over 60 NOs. Gilly finsihed at the start of the innings, he didn't need to bat at 6. How many #6 have averages comparable to Dhoni? You are making it sound as if Dhoni bats at an easy batting position. OTOH, a lot of openers have much higher averages compare to Gilly. Remaining not out is Dhoni's strength - he comes in at a time when India needs quick runs and not at the innings building time. On the all time averages among openers who have scored at least 1000 runs at that slot, Gilly is at the 40th spot. OTOH, among regular middle order batsmen (5-8) who have 1000 runs, Dhoni is at #2, just behind Bevan, inspite of the fact that batsmen at these positions typically average less than openers in ODIs - for example, if Dhoni had averaged the same as Gilly, he would still be #25 in the middle order list. This shows Gilly is not even close to being among the best openers, while Dhoni is easily the best middle order bat ever. The not outs that Dhoni makes are what that make him a special player and finisher.
Sidhoni Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Dhoni has destroyed Steyn, so I don't know what this no quality bowler thing is about.
kevinpp24 Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Dhoni has destroyed Steyn' date=' so I don't know what this no quality bowler thing is about.[/quote'] And where exactly did that happened? Not in India or is it? Or is it the match where Sachin got his 1st double? Dhoni averaging a stupendous 107 while chasing and winning the match is a little complicated. If you take out SL, Pak, Bang, Zim, WI then he averages 48 while chasing and winning the match against Aus, SA, NZ, Eng that includes both home and away. IIRC he averages something like 120+ against SL, Pak, Bang. If not for Dhoni I'm pretty sure fans here will call this player an FTB. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sidhoni Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 And where exactly did that happened? Not in India or is it? Or is it the match where Sachin got his 1st double? Dhoni averaging a stupendous 107 while chasing and winning the match is a little complicated. If you take out SL, Pak, Bang, Zim, WI then he averages 48 while chasing and winning the match against Aus, SA, NZ, Eng that includes both home and away. IIRC he averages something like 120+ against SL, Pak, Bang. If not for Dhoni I'm pretty sure fans here will call this player an FTB. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk How does it matter whether it was in India or not? It was against the world's best bowler. And he has taken him apart other times too. Also took apart Akhtar early in his test career in his own backyard.
kevinpp24 Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Let me give you guys exact details. Dhoni vs Aus vs SA vs Eng vs NZ Inns - 24 Not outs - 13 Average - 48 Strike rate - 73 100s - 0 50s - 2 Both his fifties have come way back in 2008 and both of them were in India. His strike rates weren't brilliant either. Just 73 with just 4 sixes of 730 balls combined which is very moderate for this era. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
kevinpp24 Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 How does it matter whether it was in India or not? It was against the world's best bowler. And he has taken him apart other times too. Also took apart Akhtar early in his test career in his own backyard. Isn't that what we call an FTB? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sidhoni Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Isn't that what we call an FTB? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk The one who takes quality bowlers apart?
kevinpp24 Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Now let's see what's in te other side of the boat. Dhoni vs Pak, SL, WI, Bang, Zim Both home and away Inns - 33 Not outs - 24 (wow) Average - 189 (yes that's right) Strike rate - 100 (that's right too) 100s - 2 50s - 13 6s - 37 Now that's a terrific record. But not so great bowlers. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
kevinpp24 Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 The one who takes quality bowlers apart? The one who takes apart quality bowlers in pattas and fails miserably in unfriendly conditions. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
vipin Posted March 17, 2015 Posted March 17, 2015 Dunno what all the debate is about ? Randy Orton's RKO is the best finisher.
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