Whats with this BS of Pakistan "always" producing good fast bowlers?

[express bowling]

I just want to add a few lines on Kapil Dev. When he started playing tests in 1978 , India had no medium pacers even, let alone fast bowlers. There was no pace bowling culture. No idol to look up to. No support, belief or help from pitch. No good coach at any level. Even Gavaskar has opened our bowling in the 70s. Then comes this young lad of 18. He bowled at a lively fast-medium pace , had a great outswing, seam movement, a fast bouncer. Took 300 wickets from around 75 tests @ 4 wickets per test. Then, he had a knee operation which slowed him up and changed him as bowler. He played too long after his expiry date and wrecked his stats, partly because there were not many new talent on view and partly due to his star value. Should have retired atleast 4 years earlier. But, his ultimate figures do little justice to what he has done for Indian fast bowling. Fans watching cricket from the 1990s would not really understand his contribution , impact and ability fully from his mere ultimate stats.

[thongale]

Not me. Go back and look at the chain of posts. Iam quoting it for you. 1. The OP acknowledge that Wasim, waqar and Shoaib were good and then talks about lack of sustained excellence of pakistan pacers after retirements of W and W. 2. In stead of responding to that query ,You talk about Kapil Dev out of nowhere in your first post and change the goal post and that too with a finger. 3. Nobody here claimed or were talking about past fast bowlers story which we all know. 4. You never provided me a name of Single Srilankan fast bowler, leave alone 3 who had this mythical less than 30 average in tests, excluding Bangla and Zimbabwe. Instead you argue about deviating from goal post, blah blah ,blah. I know you cannot provide the answer because there is none. Deal with it. Vaas is the only bowler , I could think of, but his average is above 30 + when you exclude Zimb and Bangla.

Height of denial. 1. Asif was a better bowler than what India produced in its entire cricketing history, and has a sub 25 average as well. 2. Asif, who played during last 12 years, has infact a better average than Kapil Dev 3. You jumped on the gun and asked about bowlers from Sri Lanklan cricketing history, in retaliation. But you just for got points 1 and 2 4. You create a straw man and beating it. Just keep beating it bacause it only makes your self look like a fool. If we go back, India never produced a sub 25 bowler in it's cricketing history who has taken at least 100 wickets. Infact India only has 6 bowlers who has taken 50+ wickets at <30 average, in 70 years of cricket On the other hand with same cut off Sri Lanka has 3 bowlers (one <25 average), in 30 years, while Pakistan has 17 such bowlers, in 70 years. **** happens, so deal with it.

[thongale]

Bangladesh and Zimbabwe are not of test quality

Zimbabwe in 90s were pretty formidable and possibly was better than England of 90s.

[Marut]

I just want to add a few lines on Kapil Dev. When he started playing tests in 1978 , India had no medium pacers even, let alone fast bowlers. There was no pace bowling culture. No idol to look up to. No support, belief or help from pitch. No good coach at any level. Even Gavaskar has opened our bowling in the 70s. Then comes this young lad of 18. He bowled at a lively fast-medium pace , had a great outswing, seam movement, a fast bouncer. Took 300 wickets from around 75 tests @ 4 wickets per test. Then, he had a knee operation which slowed him up and changed him as bowler. He played too long after his expiry date and wrecked his stats, partly because there were not many new talent on view and partly due to his star value. Should have retired atleast 4 years earlier. But, his ultimate figures do little justice to what he has done for Indian fast bowling. Fans watching cricket from the 1990s would not really understand his contribution , impact and ability fully from his mere ultimate stats.

Kapil had a vigorous jumping action at the crease, he was famous for that. After the knee operation this belligerent action was gone and he was only 3/4 of the bowler he used to be. He should have retired in 1990/1991. Anyway, Kapil's bowling stats are really good for a SC fast bowler, especially considering his awesome record in WI and Australia. I don't think Indians should be defending his stats. He could not have competed with Pakistani bowlers armed with bottle caps anyways.

[Marut]

Height of denial. 1. Asif was a better bowler than what India produced in its entire cricketing history, and has a sub 25 average as well. 2. Asif, who played during last 12 years, has infact a better average than Kapil Dev 3. You jumped on the gun and asked about bowlers from Sri Lanklan cricketing history, in retaliation. But you just for got points 1 and 2 4. You create a straw man and beating it. Just keep beating it bacause it only makes your self look like a fool. If we go back, India never produced a sub 25 bowler in it's cricketing history who has taken at least 100 wickets. Infact India only has 6 bowlers who has taken 50+ wickets at <30 average, in 70 years of cricket On the other hand with same cut off Sri Lanka has 3 bowlers (one <25 average), in 30 years, while Pakistan has 17 such bowlers, in 70 years. **** happens, so deal with it.

A bowler who lasted all of 22 tests, and accused of every crime should not be spoken of in the same sentence as Kapil. Hussey averaged 80+ after 20 tests and we all know where he settled down at the end of his career. A bare minimum of 60-75 test sample is needed before you can compare them with Kapil. A purple patch cannot be equated with lifetime achievements.

[Marut]

Height of denial. 1. Asif was a better bowler than what India produced in its entire cricketing history, and has a sub 25 average as well. 2. Asif, who played during last 12 years, has infact a better average than Kapil Dev 3. You jumped on the gun and asked about bowlers from Sri Lanklan cricketing history, in retaliation. But you just for got points 1 and 2 4. You create a straw man and beating it. Just keep beating it bacause it only makes your self look like a fool. If we go back, India never produced a sub 25 bowler in it's cricketing history who has taken at least 100 wickets. Infact India only has 6 bowlers who has taken 50+ wickets at <30 average, in 70 years of cricket On the other hand with same cut off Sri Lanka has 3 bowlers (one <25 average), in 30 years, while Pakistan has 17 such bowlers, in 70 years. **** happens, so deal with it.

Murali is a blatant chucker and should not be included in these stats.

[express bowling]

Kapil had a vigorous jumping action at the crease, he was famous for that. After the knee operation this belligerent action was gone and he was only 3/4 of the bowler he used to be. He should have retired in 1990/1991. Anyway, Kapil's bowling stats are really good for a SC fast bowler, especially considering his awesome record in WI and Australia. I don't think Indians should be defending his stats. He could not have competed with Pakistani bowlers armed with bottle caps anyways.

Forget about comparing him with Pakistani pacers...Kapil's ultimate stats do not do justice to the impact he himself had at test level upto 2/3 rds of his career. Say Gavaskar, who ultimately retired with a 51+ test average, had played 5 years more and retired with a test average of 43. Would it do justice to the impact that he had during most parts of his test career ?

[Vilander]

:facepalm: Height of denial. When exactly did India have a better bowling attack than Pakistan?

height of denial...thats your area of specialization. No one can beat pakis in denial. :hehe: 1, when did Ind have a better bowling attack than Pak ( which happened many times over the year, for eg last conclusded wc where two Indian fast bowlers are in top 5 wicket takers)is irrelevant to our discussion in this thread. 2, Pak being better bowling attack on average ( albeit very arguable) even if considered for the sake of argument, does not mean they always produce good fast bowlers, there is no correlation to these two. Your bowlers suck many times, your batsmen suck most of the time..unlike India who are better than you.

[Marut]

Forget about comparing him with Pakistani pacers...Kapil's ultimate stats do not do justice to the impact he himself had at test level upto 2/3 rds of his career. Say Gavaskar, who ultimately retired with a 51+ test average, had played 5 years more and retired with a test average of 43. Would it do justice to the impact that he had during most parts of his test career ?

Kapil never had a sub 27 bowling average. His average at the time of knee surgery was around 27.5 after 60 odd tests. This was his peak. Which is why defending Kapil's stats is a futile exercise.

[addicted4444]

Because Pakistan has a crappy domestic structure, they end up picking players purely on raw talent. People see all these talented fast bowlers and assume Pakistan has a pipeline of fast bowlers. Other countries have decent domestic structures so players are only picked when they have converted their raw talent into good bowling. This often means suppressing your natural instincts. That's why SA, NZ, Eng, Aus fast bowlers don't look so good but have great stats, because they know how to deliver rather than just showing raw talent. In India, because of our crappy wickets our talented fast bowlers have to turn into trundles to succeed so our domestic circuit has the perverse effect of actually making talented fast bowlers worse.

[express bowling]

Kapil never had a sub 27 bowling average. His average at the time of knee surgery was around 27.5 after 60 odd tests. This was his peak. Which is why defending Kapil's stats is a futile exercise.

It is not due to atleast 2 reasons. Firstly, there are so many aspects in a game or a player that are not captured by stats alone. Like the ones I mentioned about Kapil. Secondly, even while analyzing stats of a bowler, average is not the only parameter. Kapil was going at around 3.8 wickets per test match in 1986. This is comparable to many pace bowling greats. He ultimately dropped to 3.3 wickets per test match at the end of his career. This is a huge drop. Also, a drop of 2 in bowling average from 27.5 to 29.5 over a 131 test career is a large drop and points towards a much worse performance for the last 1/3 rd of his career.

[Marut]

It is not due to atleast 2 reasons. Firstly, there are so many aspects in a game or a player that are not captured by stats alone. Like the ones I mentioned about Kapil. Secondly, even while analyzing stats of a bowler, average is not the only parameter. Kapil was going at around 3.8 wickets per test match in 1986. This is comparable to many pace bowling greats. He ultimately dropped to 3.3 wickets per test match at the end of his career. This is a huge drop. Also, a drop of 2 in bowling average from 27.5 to 29.5 over a 131 test career is a large drop and points towards a much worse performance for the last 1/3 rd of his career.

Last 1/3 of his career his average dropped from 28.5 to 29.6. That is not much. Kapil was better than his stats suggest because he was a SC bowler where home conditions don't favour fast bowling. Kapil also did not have good support bowlers. His stats were very good if you take all this into account.

[ViruDilSeKhelo]

"Bottle cap KKR legend" Akram, Vanker and Actor formed the pavaarhause, yet all were KO'd by our batsmen when it mattered. End of discussion for me. Our bowling is on par with them now at least too First time we had unit at least in ODI's. In tests we don't. Usually we had 1 good seamer but not 2-3 together. Kapil, Srinath, Zaheer all came and peaked at different times.

[express bowling]

Last 1/3 of his career his average dropped from 28.5 to 29.6. That is not much. Kapil was better than his stats suggest because he was a SC bowler where home conditions don't favour fast bowling. Kapil also did not have good support bowlers. His stats were very good if you take all this into account.

The most important aspect about Kapil Dev, the pace bowler, was that he could dream of becoming an absolute top level pacer from a country which did not produce a single even half decent pacer after independence till 1978. There were no idols, no decent coaches, no encouragement, no decent facility or infrastructure to achieve this dream. Yet, he succeeded. That is the main point about Kapil's success which cold stats don't show. That is the point that I wanted to highlight. Not the standard stuff you are talking about.

[thongale]

A bowler who lasted all of 22 tests' date=' and accused of every crime should not be spoken of in the same sentence as Kapil. Hussey averaged 80+ after 20 tests and we all know where he settled down at the end of his career. A bare minimum of 60-75 test sample is needed before you can compare them with Kapil. A purple patch cannot be equated with lifetime achievements.[/quote'] Asif didn't last due to non-cricketing reasons. Even in his last test he was slicing through batting line ups. Comparing Kapil to Asif is comparing Blewett to Hussey. Yes, Hussey started with 80+, but we all knew he was a 45+ batsman, and Blewett was only good, but not brilliant. Kapil had a very long career, had magnificient first half but ordinary second half. He was not dropped because India didn't have any good fast bowlers. Asif would have had a long career, but he would have been thrown out much sooner as Pakistan has better replacement, even as short term prospects.

[thongale]

Murali is a blatant chucker and should not be included in these stats.

Haters can suck it, ICC don't care about you.: :finger:

[thongale]

Forget about comparing him with Pakistani pacers...Kapil's ultimate stats do not do justice to the impact he himself had at test level upto 2/3 rds of his career. Say Gavaskar, who ultimately retired with a 51+ test average, had played 5 years more and retired with a test average of 43. Would it do justice to the impact that he had during most parts of his test career ?

Yes, players should know when to retire. Not knowing it and prolonging and blocking place for a new player is detrimental to the team, and should be regarded as a weakness.

[thongale]

Last 1/3 of his career his average dropped from 28.5 to 29.6. That is not much. Kapil was better than his stats suggest because he was a SC bowler where home conditions don't favour fast bowling. Kapil also did not have good support bowlers. His stats were very good if you take all this into account.

If an average changes at the end of the career it shows a MASSIVE change of performance. For example Sanga only went up from 37 to 40 in ODIs in last 3 years. But we all know how heavily he had to score to achieve it.

[thongale]

The most important aspect about Kapil Dev' date=' the pace bowler, was that he could dream of becoming an absolute top level pace bowler from a country which did not produce a single even half decent pace bowler after independence till 1978. There were no idols, no decent coaches, no encouragement, no decent facility or infrastructure to achieve this dream. Yet, he succeeded. That is the main point about Kapil's success which cold stats don't show. That is the point that I wanted to point out. Not the standard stuff you are talking about.[/quote']This is a very fair point. Amongs all the nationalistic drivel that is posted, this makes very much sense. Kapil is iconic because he was instrumental in producing a fast bowling culture in India. What Imran did for Pakistan and what Warne did for non-SC countries.

[Ultimate_Game]

"Bottle cap KKR legend" Akram, Vanker and Actor formed the pavaarhause, yet all were KO'd by our batsmen when it mattered. End of discussion for me. Our bowling is on par with them now at least too First time we had unit at least in ODI's. In tests we don't. Usually we had 1 good seamer but not 2-3 together. Kapil, Srinath, Zaheer all came and peaked at different times.

Akram was one of the greatest bowlers ever and would be successful with or without bottle caps anywhere in the world. The guy could conjure any kind of delivery merely running a few steps on occasions. He could bowl yorkers, bouncers, inswingers, outswingers, cutters etc. without any perceptible change in action and literally had the ball on the string. He would be my bowling pick in any format in any world XI squad. The guy was a magician with the ball. Somehow Waqar never did that great against us and Akhtar was "blow hot blow cold" sort of a bowler. If I had to pick top two fast bowlers from Pakistan, they would be Akram and Imran who was also deadly at his peak.