The low levels of morality in cricket and sports

[16 str8]

Indian's are black themselves. Besides, I don't think it's skin colour as they never abused any West Indians in the decades they travelled there. I think it's just Simmo's look and attitude...which is not to excuse the abuse. There are Aussie fans that are racist too...vociferously so...remember that crowd racial abuse first hit the headlines when SA toured Australia a few years back. The apology to the aboriginals was way overdue. But that is just the beginning surely?

Definitely overdue, and one of the key reasons as to why the Labor party was voted in at the last election. A sign on the times in Australia. On the South Africans, it was determined that it was RSA ex-pats living in Australia that were responsible for the racism, not Australian fans.

[cochise]

Yeah, I know the RSA expats angle...but they are Australians too now...I take an inclusive view. However, I think you would have to admit that there are racist Aussie fans around...just as there are Indian racists too. There have been reports of racial abuse of Indian cricket fans on this tour (being called curry munchers and so on..)...So, you would agree then, comparing nations by comparing boorish and racist supporters is probably not a good way to go?

[Anakin]

Oh, you mean the same Aboriginal people to whom the Federal Government two weeks ago apologised? Opening the door to future compensation? As I said, Australia has moved on. India has not. That is obvious to the world. Why, all they have to do is to turn on the TV and watch how the Indian crowd carries on when a black man plays for the opposite team.

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: I'm sorry and decades of genocide is wiped off the history while worse racism than dissing a player is part of everyday life. You're complaining about again isolated incidents in indian stadium while completely forgetting about similar and worse incidents which are part of every damn tour by every damn country in Australia. You guys will make a nice research topic for genetic degradation.

[cochise]

Australia is changing Anakin. You are making sweeping generalisations.

[16 str8]

Yeah' date=' I know the RSA expats angle...but they are Australians too now...I take an inclusive view. However, I think you would have to admit that there are racist Aussie fans around...just as there are Indian racists too. There have been reports of racial abuse of Indian cricket fans on this tour (being called curry munchers and so on..)...So, you would agree then, comparing nations by comparing boorish and racist supporters is probably not a good way to go?[/quote'] Of course there are racist Australians. No country is without its share, unfortunately. And yes, comparing India as a country by a fraction of its cricket crowd is ridiculous. In the exact same manner that calling all Australians convicts is ridiculous, or calling Australians "uncivilized" becuase some in its cricket team happen to use mind games to gain an advantage.

[cochise]

Of course there are racist Australians. No country is without its share, unfortunately. And yes, comparing India as a country by a fraction of its cricket crowd is ridiculous. In the exact same manner that calling all Australians convicts is ridiculous, or calling Australians "uncivilized" becuase some its cricket team happens to play mind games with the opposition.

I agree. That is uncalled for and insulting. Boors are not only in the stands, it would seem. I would remind the Indians here that 16str8 is an Australian guest and member of this forum and is to be treated with equal respect and not abused.

[Anakin]

Of course there are racist Australians. No country is without its share' date=' unfortunately. And yes, comparing India as a country by a fraction of its cricket crowd is ridiculous. In the exact same manner that calling all Australians convicts is ridiculous, or calling Australians "uncivilized" becuase some in its cricket team happen to use mind games to gain an advantage.[/quote']Again, stop the holier than thou attitude first. You are the one who keeps on insulting indians at every opportunity and when given back, as usually like your cricketers, you're crying generalization, or equating isolated incidents with systematic practice and blah blah blah. Grow up. I hope they are changing, it's about time. But if you try that holier than thou attitude, be prepared to be reminded of your own doings as well. And I was not wrong about your culture. You didn't have one to begin with and then created a bloody and racist one from which now you're trying to evolve.

[16 str8]

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: I'm sorry and decades of genocide is wiped off the history while worse racism than dissing a player is part of everyday life. You're complaining about again isolated incidents in indian stadium while completely forgetting about similar and worse incidents which are part of every damn tour by every damn country in Australia. You guys will make a nice research topic for genetic degradation.

Not at all. I have acknowledged that what happened in the past was wrong. Unlike you, who has condemned neither the Indian crowd's behaviour towards Andrew Symonds, nor the article I posted. And as far as I see it, that highlights the point I have been making all along. You seem incapable of holding an argument, without reverting to generalisations or stereotypical views. Oh well.. [Adds another to the ignore list]

[Rajiv]

Indian's are black themselves. Besides, I don't think it's skin colour as they never abused any West Indians in the decades they travelled there. I think it's just Simmo's look and attitude...which is not to excuse the abuse. There are Aussie fans that are racist too...vociferously so...remember that crowd racial abuse first hit the headlines when SA toured Australia a few years back. The apology to the aboriginals was way overdue. But that is just the beginning surely? Moving on is not just lip service. Aussies will have moved on only when the plight of aboriginals has improved much more than it is now. It is a beginning though. Now, what makes you think that boorish sections of cricket fans are refelective of a nation? If that were the case, India and Australia are probably on par. (Actually, if you factor in footy fans, then Australia would be bottom dwellers...ask Nicky Winmar)

Say what? have u even been outside your continent

[Anakin]

Not at all. I have acknowledged that what happened in the past was wrong. Unlike you, who has condemned neither the Indian crowd's behaviour towards Andrew Symonds, nor the article I posted. And as far as I see it, that highlights the point I have been making all along. You seem incapable of holding an argument, without reverting to generalisations or stereotypical views. Oh well.. [Adds another to the ignore list]

Please do add me. I'm just pointing out how these isolated incidents are/were regular practices at your home, so it's better that you worry about that first rather than trying to point finger.

[cochise]

Anakin, The majority of Australians are honest, well meaning people who really want to make right the wrongs of the past and create a forward looking, egalitarian society. Do not judge them by the behaviour of individuals of a cricket team. It is to be regretted that sportsmen do not bear in mind that hey are ambassadors for their people when they conduct themselves.

[cochise]

Say what? have u even been outside your continent

I am Indian myself. By "black", I meant colour in the skin...that is how the term is sometimes used here in Australia. Did you think I meant black as in African? No. That is not what I meant. But if you go back far enough, we are probably all Africans, whites included...out of Africa ring a bell? What's wrong with black anyway?

[Rajiv]

..nothing wrong, gave me the impression that u dont know much abt India then

[cochise]

Ya...cool. Just a misunderstanding in how the word is used.

[CC1981]

16str8, i suggest you don't go down the road of comparative history or society with India and Australia, given the history and even the present-day nature of your country. Your country STILL holds refugees like prisoners, in the middle of nowhere desert camps with high fence, survaillence cameras and families seperated. Your nation STILL turns away boatloads of refugees who are sickly from long voyages just because they arn't of the fairer skintone. It is YOUR country that sees official representation of racist policymakers ( care to supply the name of that Queenslander lady who contested a federal election in your nation on a blatently racist agenda?). It is YOUR country that has been cited by the UN for having one of the worst human rights record in the world, not much removed from sub-saharan Africa. And for all your 'we've moved on, wheee' type of proclamations, the reforms in your land are less than two decades old. That is younger than me and it is perhaps a product of your lack of cultural understanding (afterall, culture in your country is a very new phenomenon) if you think such prejudices are eliminated in just a decade or two. Lets see you guys making it past atleast ONE lifetime, nevermind a century or two- where you guys don't fall off the 'humanity wagon' and go back to your barbaric ways before you have the temerity to confront a culture that invented humanity and has had several periods of continuous humane progress and rights for longer than your gigantic arid rock has been known to the rest of the world! And finally, yes, we've regressed a bit, but when you are a culture as old as ours, with history like ours, you will realize that everything is cyclic, there is a rise and fall component to society's level of human interaction. But i don't expect cultural infants to realize the result of culture for thousands of years- i can only welcome the infant to the club and i am glad to see that Aussie's are finally taking steps that'd make them worthy to be called human beings - i just hope you guys make it past atleast one lifetime of humanity before you fall off your wagon again.

[Anakin]

Great post there CC

[16 str8]

What a complete load of rubbish CC1981. "Given the present day nature of your country." I actually laughed at that. Australia is ranked third on the Human Development Indiex. Third. Compared to India's ranking of 128. Interesting. What are these problems you speak of? "Still hold refugeses like prisoners." Yes, illegal refugees (there is a difference) are detained, until there situation can be verified. I don't know what you were getting at with that, considering Australia is considered one of the most multicultural societies in the world. I think your post lost all credibility when you stated that refugees are turned away simple because of their skin tone. Such a cheap cop out. On the QLD politician, I assume you are talking about Pauline Hansesn? And NO, she was never voted into office. She crashed and burned, and was eventually imprisoned. "i am glad to see that Aussie's are finally taking steps that'd make them worthy to be called human beings" Sigh. You can keep whatever backward views you have on Australia. Nothing will change that. But, in simple, In little over two centuries, Australia has made one of the most livable countries (ranked third, to be precise) in the world. A country that has successfully incorporated people from all over the world, and will continue to do so. Simply= Things in Australia have never been better.

[Rajiv]

CC, forget engineering., Get a Law Degree

[CC1981]

Australia is ranked third on the Human Development Indiex. Third. Compared to India's ranking of 128. Interesting.

Interesting, indeed. Do you have any idea what the criterias for human development index is and how that relates to what I am talking about ? A million dollars doesn't make you a saint and neither does having zero dollars in your pocket make you an a$$hole. Humanity and humanism is not quantifiable through material, so what relevance does a material index have on this discussion ? I never denied the fact that Australia is a lot richer than India- whopee!

What are these problems you speak of?

Problems such as being a semi-slave colony. Problems such as getting genocided, getting invaded, etc etc. Those are the kind of problems your infant nation never had to face- with the noticeable exception for the aborginal populace- who your country has brutally genocided in the past and still mistreat as 2nd-class citizens and this is an observed fact from Amnesty International, Human Rights watch and various other NGOs and UN bodies.

Yes, illegal refugees (there is a difference) are detained, until there situation can be verified.

In places where civilized history is not just a few decades old, the prevailing norm is NOT to hold refugees like prisoners, seperated from families and inside high-security prisons, in the middle of a desert. They are usually kept track of by more expensive, but more humane methods. Besides, what the f*ck are 'illegal refugees' ? I suggest you read up the definition of what a refugee is according to the human rights charter- it is the definition that the UN and most civilized nations follow ( wouldn't surprise me if your nation is an exception to it, though). And according to it, there is no such thing as 'illegal refugees', champ. If i show up in your country and state my intention of being a refugee, i am a refugee. Whether you grant my status or not does not change the FACT that i am a refugee. Your country ships people who show up as refugee in your airports and ports into a prison facility, despite the fact that these people can demonstrate qualified background, enough material posession to sustain themselves for a while, not to mention, are with family.

I don't know what you were getting at with that, considering Australia is considered one of the most multicultural societies in the world.

Eh ? By who's standards ? multicultural ? pffft. What you have is tokenism to multiculturalism, champ. You have NO IDEA what multiculturalism is, but perhaps if you ever work up the courage to visit India with your Aussie crudeness discarded, you will learn what multiculturalism is. Your tokenistic multiculturalism does not impress me one iota. A few thousand ethiopians, a few thousand Indians, a few thousand Greeks, etc. are nothing more than a hollow sign of multiculturalism. What % of your population is of European descent and speaking English ? In India, you will not find ANY one language with more than 50% speakers and there are dozens upon dozens of cultural subgroups who we measure not in fractions but double digits as percentage of the total populace. And if we were to extend the boundaries to decimal points, we have more ethnic subgroups and people from different parts of the world (yes, I know of Germans who live in India, Ethiopians who've settled in India too, etc etc) than your little rock in the forgotten corner of the pacific. Not to mention, even if i were to compare your nation's tokenism with other nations, it is far far behind. Canada is far more multicultural (and with far more humane history than your arid barbarian rock in the middle of the pacific) , so is the USA. Britain, France, Germany and Italy leave you in dust as far as multiculturalism goes and for this, i do not need any sort of journal to claim - I've been there, seen with my own two eyes and i know where your little rock stands in the world- not very impressive, except for the fact that you guys are rich. Well, given that you lot have nearly exterminated the native population, are a population of 20 million on a rock half the size of Europe laden with resources and mineral wealth and came equipped with industrialism, it is not very impressive or surprizing where your material wealth stands.

I think your post lost all credibility when you stated that refugees are turned away simple because of their skin tone. Such a cheap cop out.

Not a copout, it is a FACT that human rights watch has highlighted in the past. Your government had no problems taking Irish immigrants by the droves in the 60s and 70s, when at the same time they put strict quotas on Chinese and Japanese immigration. Your government TODAY has no problem accepting thousands upon thousands of Kosovar refugees while last year turning away thousands of Afghan refugees- giving the reason that 'Australia cannot take more people because of inflationary pressures'- that is from Howard's own speech. Mate, you can't just make BS comments and except to go away scot free, especially when engaging me. Leave your assumptions at the door, especially about my awareness of your culture, nation and politics.

I assume you are talking about Pauline Hansesn? And NO, she was never voted into office. She crashed and burned, and was eventually imprisoned.

The very fact that she could get 10,000 signatories to even submit a candidacy to your national elections, not to mention, garner far more votes than that in the election process, is indicative of the entrenched racism that is both historical and present in your society. Such a person would not even get a candidacy in many of the more civilized places on this planet.

But, in simple, In little over two centuries, Australia has made one of the most livable countries (ranked third, to be precise) in the world.

As i mentioned earlier, given the advantages you folks had, it is not surprising or impressive at all. Your nation didn't have to face challenges such as invasion, opression, cultural destruction or even the challenge of integration- your ancestors just shot the natives instead of coexistence- such a thing is not considered a challenge from where I come from- we don't just cop out by shooting a bunch of tribals or neolithic people to steal their land or eliminate differing views. Not to mention, you guys got the tutelege of England, who fed you, clothed you and kept your borders secure with her might for more than half of your nation's existence. Sorry, but your nation's resume, is not only bare, but it is fairly unimpressive as well. I can think of another nation who started in the same boat as you lot and have ended up doing a lot better: Canada. They didn't have to resort to genocide of the natives or stealing all their lands (though a little bit of that happened, they've addressed that in more than just the empty words ala Aussie govt.) and they left behind their racist tendencies a good 50+ years before your nation discovered civilization.

A country that has successfully incorporated people from all over the world, and will continue to do so.

If the Aussie way is 'successful integration', then there is not much lack of success globally. Mate, in terms of human interactions, your land is one of the most backwards on this planet. Most of Europe is far more open to respecting other's views & culture, far more open to intermingle and intermarry, don't just dump people in prison facilities for showing up to their shores, etc. The Kiwis across the Tasman sea could teach your nation a thing or three about civility and coexistence/respect towards the natives, the Canadians could probably not even bother given how far behind you lot are in this respect and places in Asia such as India, Thailand, Japan, Korea, Taiwan,etc. are far more receptive and humane in their interactions. Maybe, just maybe, you need to step out of that little rock of yours and see most of the world to realize just where your big arid rock lies in this regard: distinctly unimpressive, with money being the only thing going for its favour. And as i mentioned before, if you gave ANY group of 20-million odd people a land half the size of Europe to play with, completely cut off and seperate from any external threat, laden with a few continent's worth of mineral resources, i'd have to really dig deep down the ladder of civility to find groups that'd do a worse job than you lot have done. And unless your nation's attitude evolves a good 50 more years or so in the positive direction ( its so far been less than 20 or so years so far), your multiculturalism will be nothing more than a rather shining example of tokenism- which will disappear the moment your nation stops getting rich by simply exporting a whackload of resources. You guys have a lot to learn about civility and civilization- not only just from Europe, but also from rest of the world. And one of the things your nation will one day realize that uncouth behaviour is universally frowned, not seen as a sign of any mental competence under the guise of 'mental games'.

[CC1981]

CC' date=' forget engineering., Get a Law Degree[/quote'] :haha::haha: Rajeev, i don't fancy arguing for or against duffers as a form of living!