Javagal Srinath vs Zaheer Khan

[Muloghonto]

6 minutes ago, kira said:

Also one more thing to add, barring asia, spinner have a very little role in odi cricket, espically in the 90s, also most team only played 1 spinner, you tried so hard to furnish this stupid scenario by picking 2 spinner but you do understand that there are more pace bowlers than spinners in world cricket, don't you? So the team's rpo will be more impacted by the pacers than spinners, lol this is too easy

You clearly didnt watch cricket in the 90s,where bowlers like Mushie, Kumble, Warne, Saqqi, Murali all took pitches out of the equation as far as run rates were concerned. Warne, Saqqi and Murali were literally unaffected and Mushie & Kumble were largely unaffected in the ER department, they just got less wickets outside of Asia. 

And no, most teams didn't play 1 spinner- most teams played 2 spinners if you include the 5th bowler, since hardly any team played 5 front-line bowlers in the ODIs.All subcontinental sides played 3 spinners actually, since the 90s saw Murali+ Jayasurya + deSilva, India saw Kumble + Raju/Chauhan + Tendulkar, Pakistan saw Saqqi + Mushie + Sohail make up 25-30 overs almost all the time. Thats 3 of the sides fielding 25-30 overs of spin regularly...

You say this is too easy, yet i have demonstrated with clear-cut example the BS you are spewing. You are yet to show any direct correlation between ER of an individual bowler and NRR of an entire batting team.

 

Edited April 5, 2017 by Muloghonto

[kira]

1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

You clearly didnt watch cricket in the 90s,where bowlers like Mushie, Kumble, Warne, Saqqi, Murali all took pitches out of the equation as far as run rates were concerned. Warne, Saqqi and Murali were literally unaffected and Mushie & Kumble were largely unaffected in the ER department, they just got less wickets outside of Asia. 

And no, most teams didn't play 1 spinner- most teams played 2 spinners if you include the 5th bowler, since hardly any team played 5 front-line bowlers in the ODIs.

You say this is too easy, yet i have demonstrated with clear-cut example the BS you are spewing. You are yet to show any direct correlation between ER of an individual bowler and NRR of an entire batting team.

 

You clearly missed the comprehension classes , Can you prove that spinners impacted the economy rate similar to your  hypothetical BS? Can you? Do you dispute the fact that there were more pacers than spinners? Do you? I not only watched cricket in the 90s, I also understood it a lot better than you

[Muloghonto]

2 minutes ago, kira said:

You clearly missed the comprehension classes , Can you prove that spinners impacted the economy rate similar to your  hypothetical BS? Can you? Do you dispute the fact that there were more pacers than spinners? Do you? I not only watched cricket in the 90s, I also understood it a lot better than you

You are the one making a case between linking individual ER to NRR of a team. So onus is on YOU to prove the case. So far you've failed to do so- making bald assertions != proving a case.

 

I've just pointed out scenarios where your assessment is categorically proven false. 
You clearly didnt watch or understand jack-shyte about Srinath's era, that much is crystal clear.

 

Edited April 5, 2017 by Muloghonto

[kira]

7 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

You clearly didnt watch cricket in the 90s,where bowlers like Mushie, Kumble, Warne, Saqqi, Murali all took pitches out of the equation as far as run rates were concerned. Warne, Saqqi and Murali were literally unaffected and Mushie & Kumble were largely unaffected in the ER department, they just got less wickets outside of Asia. 

And no, most teams didn't play 1 spinner- most teams played 2 spinners if you include the 5th bowler, since hardly any team played 5 front-line bowlers in the ODIs.

You say this is too easy, yet i have demonstrated with clear-cut example the BS you are spewing. You are yet to show any direct correlation between ER of an individual bowler and NRR of an entire batting team.

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=2;class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=economy_rate;qualmin1=100;qualval1=wickets;spanmax2=1+jan+2004;spanmin2=1+jan+1991;spanval2=span;team=1;team=2;team=25;team=3;team=4;team=5;team=6;team=7;team=8;team=9;template=results;type=bowling

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=2;class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=economy_rate;qualmin1=100;qualval1=wickets;spanmax1=1+jan+2013;spanmin1=1+jan+2000;spanval1=span;team=1;team=2;team=25;team=3;team=4;team=5;team=6;team=7;team=8;team=9;template=results;type=bowling

 

Oh look what I found, the list of spinners in both eras with their economy rate, those spinners in zaheer's era sure do make him look bad...oh wait #BustingyourBSwithstats

[kira]

4 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

You are the one making a case between linking individual ER to NRR of a team. So onus is on YOU to prove the case. So far you've failed to do so- making bald assertions != proving a case.

 

I've just pointed out scenarios where your assessment is categorically proven false. 
You clearly didnt watch or understand jack-shyte about Srinath's era, that much is crystal clear.

 

I just busted your asinine scenarios, I am only one making claims and proving them with facts, you on the other hand are making up stories and spouting BS again and again, how much more pwnage can your puny like brain take?

Edited April 5, 2017 by kira

[kira]

And you have completely ignored my points of Srinath's support bowlers, match fixing captancy, 90s fielders, I have so much ammunition to embarrass you, its not even funny

[Muloghonto]

Just now, kira said:

I just busted your asinine scenarios, I am only one making claims and proving them with facts, you on the other hand are making up stories and spouting BS again and again, how much more pwnage can your puny like brain take?

You busted squat. Because saying busted, doesnt make it so. Demonstrate your point. You haven't done any such thing. You are simply making arbitrary assocation between individual ER and team RR.  So far you have not made one logical/factual/data-driven statement to demonstrate that point.

 

And as someone who is losing the logical argument, you are resorting to childish retorts.

 

[Muloghonto]

5 minutes ago, kira said:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=2;class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=economy_rate;qualmin1=100;qualval1=wickets;spanmax2=1+jan+2004;spanmin2=1+jan+1991;spanval2=span;team=1;team=2;team=25;team=3;team=4;team=5;team=6;team=7;team=8;team=9;template=results;type=bowling

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=2;class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=economy_rate;qualmin1=100;qualval1=wickets;spanmax1=1+jan+2013;spanmin1=1+jan+2000;spanval1=span;team=1;team=2;team=25;team=3;team=4;team=5;team=6;team=7;team=8;team=9;template=results;type=bowling

 

Oh look what I found, the list of spinners in both eras with their economy rate, those spinners in zaheer's era sure do make him look bad...oh wait #BustingyourBSwithstats

Obviously any stat like that where there is 1 less side in the 90s and less ODI cricket being played than the 2000s will see less bowlers for any comparison. Srinath has less bowlers to compete with, both as pacers and spinners. That is the only thing your stats are showing. 

And the only spinners from the 90s list FYI who have worse ER than Srinath are part-timers.

[kira]

1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

You busted squat. Because saying busted, doesnt make it so. Demonstrate your point. You haven't done any such thing. You are simply making arbitrary assocation between individual ER and team RR.  So far you have not made one logical/factual/data-driven statement to demonstrate that point.

 

And as someone who is losing the logical argument, you are resorting to childish retorts.

 

Let's recap:-

 

The points I made:-

 

• Srinath in top 15 average wise , Zaheer top 20
• Srinath top 15 economy wise, Zaheer 24th
• Srinath top 10 economy wise, Zaher 16th  among pacers only
• Team's rpo way more than srinath's career economy, same cannot be said about zaheer
• Spinners of both era had similar output economy wise

 

The points you made:-

• Changed the sample set to 50 wickets and claim there are more bowlers above srinath's economy
• Painted a hypothetical bs scenario which was totally destroyed by me
• ???

That's it. Have I missed anything? 

[kira]

1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

Obviously any stat like that where there is 1 less side in the 90s and less ODI cricket being played than the 2000s will see less bowlers for any comparison. Srinath has less bowlers to compete with, both as pacers and spinners. That is the only thing your stats are showing. 

And the only spinners from the 90s list FYI who have worse ER than Srinath are part-timers.

And even parttimers from Zaheer's era have a better economy than him, you need more pwnage 

[kira]

3 minutes ago, kira said:

Let's recap:-

 

The points I made:-

 

• Srinath in top 15 average wise , Zaheer top 20
• Srinath top 15 economy wise, Zaheer 24th
• Srinath top 10 economy wise, Zaher 16th  among pacers only
• Team's rpo way more than srinath's career economy, same cannot be said about zaheer
• Spinners of both era had similar output economy wise

 

The points you made:-

• Changed the sample set to 50 wickets and claim there are more bowlers above srinath's economy
• Painted a hypothetical bs scenario which was totally destroyed by me
• ???

That's it. Have I missed anything? 

I forgot, I made some more ponts as well

 

• Srinath's contemporaries were greater than Zaheer's contemporaries
• Srinath's support bowlers were shyte
• Srinath didn't play with good fielders
• Srinath had a match fixing captain

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, kira said:

Let's recap:-

 

The points I made:-

 

• Srinath in top 15 average wise , Zaheer top 20
• Srinath top 15 economy wise, Zaheer 24th

Only when you exclude a lot of players to favour those who played 20-25 ODIs per annum.

 

Quote

 

• Srinath top 10 economy wise, Zaher 16th  among pacers only

But Srinath is much more behind the top than Zaheer for his era. There are 14 players with 10% or more better ER than Srinath, 8 for Zaheer.

 

Quote

 

• Team's rpo way more than srinath's career economy, same cannot be said about zaheer

As demonstrated by my example and you have failed to counter (bald assertions are not counter), it means nothing.

 

Quote

• Painted a hypothetical bs scenario which was totally destroyed by me

If only saying was the same as doing....

[Muloghonto]

2 minutes ago, kira said:

I forgot, I made some more ponts as well

 

• Srinath's contemporaries were greater than Zaheer's contemporaries
• Srinath's support bowlers were shyte
• Srinath didn't play with good fielders
• Srinath had a match fixing captain

1. Explain how Srinath's match-fixing captain directly impacts Srinath's stats unless Srinath is guilty of match-fixing by following captain orders and bowling shyte

2. Srinath's support bowlers were no more shyte than Zaheer's.

3. Srinath played with Azhar, Jadeja and Robin Singh for bulk of his career. Those three walk into ANY top XI from India for fielding. 

His team also featured way better catchers than Zaheer's team. 

4. If Srinath was worse compared to his contemporaries than Zaheer, since they are not from the same era, it makes Srinath the worse bowler.

 

[kira]

Just now, Muloghonto said:

Only when you exclude a lot of players to favour those who played 20-25 ODIs per annum.

 

But Srinath is much more behind the top than Zaheer for his era. There are 14 players with 10% or more better ER than Srinath, 8 for Zaheer.

 

As demonstrated by my example and you have failed to counter (bald assertions are not counter), it means nothing.

 

If only saying was the same as doing....

Demonstrated by your example? LMAO you are not the brightest tool in the shed, are ya? 

 

Let's go over your scenario gain, shall we?

 

You said that since spinners also have a role in the team's rpo, therefore they can make a good bowler look bad by their own performance, right?

 

I posted the list of spinners and their economy rate above, please tell me how the spinners from zaheer's era make him look worse than he is, please go ahead, I dare you, or are you going continue running away and embarrass yourself further?

[Muloghonto]

Just now, kira said:

Demonstrated by your example? LMAO you are not the brightest tool in the shed, are ya? 

 

Let's go over your scenario gain, shall we?

 

You said that since spinners also have a role in the team's rpo, therefore they can make a good bowler look bad by their own performance, right?

 

I posted the list of spinners and their economy rate above, please tell me how the spinners from zaheer's era make him look worse than he is, please go ahead, I dare you, or are you going continue running away and embarrass yourself further?

Simple answer: your list is limited. There are more than 10-12 spinners playing those two decades in question. I can set any stat parameter to prove a point- which is what you are doing.

 

[kira]

Just now, Muloghonto said:

1. Explain how Srinath's match-fixing captain directly impacts Srinath's stats unless Srinath is guilty of match-fixing by following captain orders and bowling shyte

Really, do I need to explain this point? Of course the captain has a lot to do with the performance of a bowler, haven't you seen srinath under ganguly or yadav under kohli, how slow can you be

2. Srinath's support bowlers were no more shyte than Zaheer's.

Prove it, I dare ya, it can be easily proven statistically, go ahead

3. Srinath played with Azhar, Jadeja and Robin Singh for bulk of his career. Those three walk into ANY top XI from India for fielding. 

His team also featured way better catchers than Zaheer's team. 

lol, this point is so stupid, this doesn't even need a rebuttal, yes, Who wouldn't want the 90s fielding team over the 2000s fielding team LMAO

4. If Srinath was worse compared to his contemporaries than Zaheer, since they are not from the same era, it makes Srinath the worse bowler.

Clearly maths isn't your strongest subject but being the 10th best is better than being the 16th best

 

[kira]

2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Simple answer: your list is limited. There are more than 10-12 spinners playing those two decades in question. I can set any stat parameter to prove a point- which is what you are doing.

 

Then post your list, you are the one who made this claim, you do understand that you can't win a debate by reciting stories, back up your scenario with facts, I even reduced the qualification to 100 wickets for you  

 

My list also proves that pacers have a greater impact on team's rpo than spinners, how can you be so blind?

[kira]

Alright it seems you have finally seen the light and run away from this thread, I have waited long enough, if you have some comback left then do post it here, I'll come back at night to serve you more pwnage 

[Muloghonto]

2 minutes ago, kira said:

 

Really, do I need to explain this point? Of course the captain has a lot to do with the performance of a bowler, haven't you seen srinath under ganguly or yadav under kohli, how slow can you be

That is not proof, that is just wishful thinking that all batsman/bowler's averages suck because their captain fixed matches. I suppose by that token, Donald, Pollock, etc are also better than their stats due to their match-fixing captain ?!

 

Quote

Prove it, I dare ya, it can be easily proven statistically, go ahead

I see no reason to conclude the likes of Prasad, Kumble, Raju, etc. were worse bowlers than the likes of Munaf, Irfan, Bhajji, etc.

 

Quote

lol, this point is so stupid, this doesn't even need a rebuttal, yes, Who wouldn't want the 90s fielding team over the 2000s fielding team LMAO

Our test side definitely would. Ever heard the term 'catches win matches' ?

 

Quote

Clearly maths isn't your strongest subject but being the 10th best is better than being the 16th best

Math is my strong suite, which is why i've focussed on standard deviation rather than mean ranking. Which is why i keep saying and you keep ignoring, there are almost double the fast bowlers from 90s (14 to 8), despite having 1 less team (no Bangladesh) who have smoked Srinath in ER than Zaheer by a huge margin. 

[kira]

2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

That is not proof, that is just wishful thinking that all batsman/bowler's averages suck because their captain fixed matches. I suppose by that token, Donald, Pollock, etc are also better than their stats due to their match-fixing captain ?!

No proof, you are one to talk, you have been making stories after stories without proof and yet you whine about proof here, hilarious

I see no reason to conclude the likes of Prasad, Kumble, Raju, etc. were worse bowlers than the likes of Munaf, Irfan, Bhajji, etc.

No reason eh? lol you don't want your bubble to be busted? You will find a reason if you had a working brain

Our test side definitely would. Ever heard the term 'catches win matches' ?

Test side? Have you completely lost it now? We have been discussing ODIs this how thread? Ever heard of the term "brain fade"?

Math is my strong suite, which is why i've focussed on standard deviation rather than mean ranking. Which is why i keep saying and you keep ignoring, there are almost double the fast bowlers from 90s (14 to 8), despite having 1 less team (no Bangladesh) who have smoked Srinath in ER than Zaheer by a huge margin. 

And your brilliant mathematical skills don't account for sample set do they? Btw at least post the link for the only point you have made in this thread. Maths is you strong suite yet you don't believe in backing up anything you say with stats lol 

 

Btw Bangladesh  Really? lol