TOP 5 all rounders of all time

[the don]

 

.

Edited July 7, 2017 by the don

[the don]

Now here is a proper allrounder .

Even Graham Gooch was overawed.

 

[Tattieboy]

On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 2:57 PM, rtmohanlal said:

My stance on this matter goes in these lines.I just ask my conscious as to  what to do with a player, let alone several of  his contemporary opponents or other game related people, even  whose country men came forward with statements in public that he was seriously involved in this unfair tactics of tampering.That means he was unethical & unfair & cheated. My stance always is to discredit  such credentials & credit  others who were always fair. If I still am to rate Imran so highly, then I should just accept that it was Ben Johnson who won 100 mtrs in Seoul Olympics & not Carl lewis.And I just can't accept both of their credentials.   

The difference being Ben Johnson was found guilty of cheating and stripped of his gold medal 

 Imran Khan was not found guilty of anything by the ICC. Rule of law...Innocent until proven guilty 

[gazza]

11 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

yes .... for you  such matters are speculations,but for me they are different contexts Kapil & Imran played in and matters that counts to evaluate them.Any way each  to their own.

I am not saying they are the exact same context. It isn't just speculation for me, it's speculation on anyone's part. A big reason why you rate kapil so highly is based on speculation and what I was trying to point out is that you can give anyone bonus points based on speculation. 

 

End of the day you have to apply the same logic to every player when rating them otherwise it's just bias and a pointless conversation.

 

this is why I bring up things like imran's missing years, hadlee's lack of support, Procter and rice even though they didn't play enough international cricket. They are not all the same situations but they all consist if some form of speculation and not just fact. 

 

Can't just say kapil is worthy of extra points based on speculation and not others otherwise you are being biased.

[gazza]

One reason why imran is considered of so highly is because of his captaincy, he's one of the greatest captains of all time, possibly the greatest. So if you do include captaincy in your rating then captaincy is a massive plus for imran.

[Haarkarjeetgaye]

Imran Khan, Jacques Kallis, Sobers,  Kapil Dev, Botham

[rtmohanlal]

7 hours ago, Tattieboy said:

The difference being Ben Johnson was found guilty of cheating and stripped of his gold medal 

 Imran Khan was not found guilty of anything by the ICC. Rule of law...Innocent until proven guilty 

Law can't always go correct. For instance we can see even notorious criminals escaping from the hands of law even after committing murders just because of the fact that there is not enough eye witness or evidences. Even it must be that, because of the fear of their security  & well being,   people who have actually  viewed the events thru naked eye will not provide eyewitness and the culprit escapes.Here in this case law couldn't punish Imran ,because ICC itself was not at all strict W.R.T tampering those times just like  Olympics governing body was towards  drugs.And to add to that , is it any official rankings  of ICC that places the all rounders in any order as of now?  they are all opinions of different game related people.Hence I too have an opinion about them .And based on the circumstancial evidences in the form of several cricket related personalities accusing Imran of tampering  thru public statements in frequent  intervals  ever since he has hanged up his boots ,  It is my strong belief & opinion  that Imran was a serious tamperor.

Edited July 8, 2017 by rtmohanlal

[Tattieboy]

13 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Law can't always go correct. For instance we can see even notorious criminals escaping from the hands of law even after committing murders just because of the fact that there is not enough eye witness or evidences. Even it must be that, because of the fear of their security  & well being,   people who have actually  viewed the events thru naked eye will not provide eyewitness and the culprit escapes.Similarly here in this case law couldn't punish Imran ,because ICC itself was not at all strict those times just like  Olympics governing body.And to add to that , is it any official rankings  of ICC that places the all rounders in any order as of now?  they are all opinions of different game related people.Hence I too have an opinion about them .And based on the circumstancial evidences in the form of several cricket related personalities accusing Imran of tampering  thru public statements in frequent  intervals  ever since he has hanged up his boots ,  It is my strong belief & opinion  that Imran was a serious tamperor.

I am curious  if you saw any of the " four" all rounders play live?

[Rightarmfast]

9 minutes ago, Tattieboy said:

I am curious  if you saw any of the " four" all rounders play live?

I did. All the four! And I am of the same opine as rt. Even if you check Imran's stats, they are highly inflated due to his performance in Pakistan. And we all know the kind of umpiring which used to happen there, then. Add to it, the tampering. well, it does take a lot of credibility off Imran for sure.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Rightarmfast

[rtmohanlal]

7 hours ago, gazza said:

I am not saying they are the exact same context. It isn't just speculation for me, it's speculation on anyone's part. A big reason why you rate kapil so highly is based on speculation and what I was trying to point out is that you can give anyone bonus points based on speculation. 

 

End of the day you have to apply the same logic to every player when rating them otherwise it's just bias and a pointless conversation.

 

this is why I bring up things like imran's missing years, hadlee's lack of support, Procter and rice even though they didn't play enough international cricket. They are not all the same situations but they all consist if some form of speculation and not just fact. 

 

Can't just say kapil is worthy of extra points based on speculation and not others otherwise you are being biased.

With regard to our topic in hand,i  have pointed out several things  as to why I place Kapil so highly.Similarly you too have put forward several points. We both have the freedom

to analyse all these points and  reach our own conclusions. Based on that I  believe Kapil was the best of the FAB  4 of 80s. Even if you differ from me , i respect your opinions & conclusions. So what big deal ?   

Edited July 8, 2017 by rtmohanlal

[rtmohanlal]

11 minutes ago, Tattieboy said:

I am curious  if you saw any of the " four" all rounders play live?

I started watching cricket from 1985 onwards.

[rtmohanlal]

5 hours ago, gazza said:

One reason why imran is considered of so highly is because of his captaincy, he's one of the greatest captains of all time, possibly the

5 hours ago, gazza said:

One reason why imran is considered of so highly is because of his captaincy, he's one of the greatest captains of all time, possibly the greatest. So if you do include captaincy in your rating then captaincy is a massive plus for imran.

greatest. So if you do include captaincy in your rating then captaincy is a massive plus for imran.

Imran was a great captain.But  Kapil was not  far behind too.If any , only a few inches behind. And why? Firstly we can't go by win-loss stats alone.This because that depends on the  over all strength of the team. If that is the yard stick , then Clive Lloyd has to be the greatest ever captain. Now coming to Imran , he possessed a bowling unit at his disposal that rivalled  even the WI bowling unit  of those times in variety.Bowlers like Sarfraz,Qadir,Iqbal Qasim,Akram,Waqar,Mushtaq Ahmed & himself  formed the bowling unit of PAK thru out in the 80s.

That attack having right arm,left arm fast bowlers, variety spinners etc etc was having much variety than even that  of WI team.All Imran did was utilise them  in the most effective way by following horses for courses method. And he had the freedom to select his own players even which no other captain enjoyed.Batting too was good enough. All in all PAK team of the 80s was the 2nd best of those times.

  Imran achieved some great results like having 3 drawn series against WI team, a series win in IND, one day series win  in IND ,world cup win in 92 etc etc.  Agreed. But  the WI teams Imran took on was going thru a transition period  with only Marshall left from the famous FAB4. 

Lloyd had also retired.And the WI team didn't play  at its full strength  in all the matches either.In short ,those  WI teams,  still no:1 in the world  was  more or less of the same over all quality  as that of  the opposing PAK teams. Do you feel Imran could have achieved the same results with Agarkars,Binnys in his ranks instead of Wasims & Waqars ??And don't forget the part played by his 'wicked ally' bottle top in these

performances.

And Kapil achieved some great results like world cup win against all odds, a 0-2 loss in 5 match test series in WI(keep in mind most of the teams were getting destroyed at the hands of that WI team),2-0 series win in ENG, a drawn series  in AUS( IND would have won the series if not for the whether) etc etc.What not his all round performances in  that WI series is a stuff of legends.He was  great in Australia too.  All this he achieved he achieved  with very weak bowling unit at his disposal.

So all in all Kapil was not that far behind w.r.t captaincy.

Having said all this, why is so much preference to this captaincy factor? After all it is a mental aspect of the game only.It is important.but for me fielding which is a physical aspect like batting & bowling is as  important as captaincy if not a bit more important.In over all fielding & catching they were poles apart.

 

Edited July 8, 2017 by rtmohanlal

[gazza]

38 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

With regard to our topic in hand,i  have pointed out several things  as to why I place Kapil so highly.Similarly you too have put forward several points. We both have the freedom

to analyse all these points and  reach our own conclusions. Based on that I  believe Kapil was the best of the FAB  4 of 80s. Even if you differ from me , i respect your opinions & conclusions. So what big deal ?   

Big deal is that your logic seems very biased towards kapil, it would be fine if you allowed similar leniency to other allrounders but you don't. If your reasoning was sound and fair and not based on speculation in a positive manner for kapil but negative for others then your opinion would hold more weight.

 

thing is when others bring up valid points against kapil you simply side step the point and say you've already given your opinion. I think if your logic was so sound and fair you wouldn't do that, rather you'd address issues with kapil's record that are brought up and like I've already said you'd also give extra points to other allrounders.

 

tbh rice and Procter were probably better than all of the 80s allrounders, and there are many testimonials to back that. 

 

all I'm saying is if you're going to give one player brownie points for lack of support then all who had lack of support deserve brownie points, if one gets points due to injury issues then so should another. Can't cherry pick here and there to big up your favourite player.

 

easy to cherry pick, I can say what botham achieved in his first 5 years was the real botham, and the decline was due to injury so shouldn't be counted (or have less weight) I can say botham did poorly against WI purely due to captaincy and injuries  as the only time he played them was during captaincy which got to him (I don't consider captaincy in this discussion for all rounder) and after his back injury where he was affected. Botham actually did alright against them at the back half of his career so I could say in his prime he would have been even better had he not had the captaincy. He got a bunch of tons and 5fers his first 5 years more than the others possibly in their entire careers. 

 

But that's not a fair or real analysis of botham's career. It's cherry picking to make him look good, which we all do to a degree for our favourites but it needs to be within reason and for the most part fair and unbiased to get a true idea where these guys should be placed with each other.

 

end of the day they are/were all great all rounders.

 

hadlee, kapil and botham especially are very close in this race. As far as imran I don't think there is much to discuss, if you believe in the ball tampering allegations (or believe that only he did it) then you'll rate him quite low, otherwise if not for that you'll rate him probably higher than the other 3 I just mentioned.

[Tattieboy]

Captaincy never has been or will be a paramounter of judging an all rounder. 

[gazza]

12 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Imran was a great captain.But  Kapil was not  far behind too.If any , only a few inches behind. And why? Firstly we can't go by win-loss stats alone.This because that depends on the  over all strength of the team. If that is the yard stick , then Clive Lloyd has to be the greatest ever captain. Now coming to Imran , he possessed a bowling unit at his disposal that rivalled  even the WI bowling unit  of those times in variety.Bowlers like Sarfraz,Qadir,Iqbal Qasim,Akram,Waqar,Mushtaq Ahmed & himself  formed the bowling unit of PAK thru out in the 80s.

That attack having right arm,left arm fast bowlers, variety spinners etc etc was having much variety than even that  of WI team.All Imran did was utilise them  in the most effective way by following horses for courses method. And he had the freedom to select his own players even which no other captain enjoyed.Batting too was good enough. All in all PAK team of the 80s was the 2nd best of those times.

  Imran achieved some great results like having 3 drawn series against WI team, a series win in IND, one day series win  in IND ,world cup win in 92 etc etc.  Agreed. But  the WI teams Imran took on was going thru a transition period  with only Marshall left from the famous FAB4. 

Lloyd had also retired.And the WI team didn't play  at its full strength  in all the matches either.In short ,those  WI teams,  still no:1 in the world  was  more or less of the same over all quality  as that of  the opposing PAK teams. Do you feel Imran achieved the same results with Agarkars.Binnys in his ranks instead of Wasims & Waqars ??

And Kapil achieved some great results like world cup win against all odds, a 0-2 loss in 5 match test series in WI(keep in mind most of the teams were getting destroyed at the hands of that WI team),2-0 series win in ENG, a drawn series  in AUS( IND would have won the series if not for the whether) etc etc.What not his all round performances in  that WI series is a stuff of legends.He was  great in Australia too.  All this he achieved he achieved  with very weak bowling unit at his disposal.

So all in all Kapil was not that far behind w.r.t captaincy.

Having said all this, why is so much preference to this captaincy factor? After all it is a mental aspect of the game only.It is important.but for me fielding which is a physical aspect like batting & bowling is as  important as captaincy if not a bit more important.In over all fielding & catching they were poles apart.

 

Imran's attack was not as good as the great WI pace attacks. All of the WI pacers were averaging under 25. Waqar started when imran was past his best, Wasim probably wasn't at his best until a bit later in imran's career. It just wasn't as good as the great WI attacks.

[gazza]

Another example. Kapil gets points for being injured and not resting so obviously it must mean he got less wickets and it was tougher on him so it ruined his stats.

 

well miller played injured, so he often wasn't fully fit but still played, this would have affected both his bowling and batting performances but has he been given credit for that? Nope, for miller he's not as good because his wickets per match isn't up there. Well of course it isn't, he was injured half the time so struggled and/or couldn't actually bowl the overs.

 

truth is kapil's wickets per match isn't that much better than miller's. Kapil got 3.3 wpm, miller 3 wpm. So they both struggled with injury but kapil gets points for it but miller loses points...

[Rightarmfast]

19 minutes ago, gazza said:

Imran's attack was not as good as the great WI pace attacks. All of the WI pacers were averaging under 25. Waqar started when imran was past his best, Wasim probably wasn't at his best until a bit later in imran's career. It just wasn't as good as the great WI attacks.

It must be tough/ironical/comical putting your bowlers down, who you try to portray as world beaters ever since they were born, so that you prove your point ;)

[gazza]

9 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

It must be tough/ironical/comical putting your bowlers down, who you try to portray as world beaters ever since they were born, so that you prove your point ;)

I'm Australian, besides how exactly is what I said putting imran, wasim and waqar down? Oh no I said wasim wasn't at his best at the beginning of his career yeah I'm really putting him down there. Oh no I said imran was past his prime, he was only 35+ how horrible to say.

Edited July 8, 2017 by gazza

[rtmohanlal]

28 minutes ago, gazza said:

Imran's attack was not as good as the great WI pace attacks. All of the WI pacers were averaging under 25. Waqar started when imran was past his best, Wasim probably wasn't at his best until a bit later in imran's career. It just wasn't as good as the great WI attacks.

 I was generally speaking about the bowling standards that Pakistan possesed during those 80s.Agreed Waqar didn't play in those first 2 series against WI. But then West Indies team too had to rely on Patterson,Tony Gray etc etc who were not great bowlers either in several of these matches . Even Ambrose & Bishop started in 1988 or so ,basically they were rookies.So I was generally speaking .To get a more clear picture you yourself can go thru the details of all these matches.

BTW out of just curiosity .... your nationality ???

[gazza]

Patterson wasn't great he was 86 onwards. gray has a great record, not sure how he did in certain matches but he only played 5 tests averaging 17, played 25 ODIs averaging 19.