TOP 5 all rounders of all time

[gazza]

5 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

The reasons and videos have been posted extensively on the forum. Please do a thorough check and I reiterate again, study the topic a tad better!

No no that's dodging what I'm asking. Why would people still consider him the best or right up there if he was such a big cheat? Give proper reasoning please, because there are plenty of cricket experts that would have better knowledge than ourselves on the topic who still rate him right up there.

Edited June 26, 2017 by gazza

[Rightarmfast]

2 minutes ago, gazza said:

No no that's dodging what I'm asking. Why would people still consider him the best or right up there if he was such a big cheat? Give proper reasoning please, because there are plenty of cricket experts that would have better knowledge than ourselves on the topic who still rate him right up there.

I have answered that in my 1st comment. There is something called 'courtesy'. During Imran's time, there was no ICC ban on players. And since there were no interventions by any legal body, YOU CANNOT OPENLY CALL SOMEONE A CHEAT! But care to see any personal or candid videos, or videos where names are not taken, you will find plenty against Pakistani players. There is a reason why people send press reporters against players like Aamir and Asif. The tag hasnt gone yet, and now they want to catch them red handed and call them for what they really are!

[gazza]

14 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

I have answered that in my 1st comment. There is something called 'courtesy'. During Imran's time, there was no ICC ban on players. And since there were no interventions by any legal body, YOU CANNOT OPENLY CALL SOMEONE A CHEAT! But care to see any personal or candid videos, or videos where names are not taken, you will find plenty against Pakistani players. There is a reason why people send press reporters against players like Aamir and Asif. The tag hasnt gone yet, and now they want to catch them red handed and call them for what they really are!

That is not what I asked, I asked why does he get rated so highly if he was a cheat. They wouldn't rate him very much if he was such a big cheat. I understand not bringing up the cheating but that doesn't answer why they still consider him so highly.

[Rightarmfast]

44 minutes ago, gazza said:

That is not what I asked, I asked why does he get rated so highly if he was a cheat. They wouldn't rate him very much if he was such a big cheat. I understand not bringing up the cheating but that doesn't answer why they still consider him so highly.

You cant wake up a person who is pretending to sleep! Cant keep on repeating the same thing over and over again. if you have problem understanding basic logic, thats not my problem

[gazza]

4 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

You cant wake up a person who is pretending to sleep! Cant keep on repeating the same thing over and over again. if you have problem understanding basic logic, thats not my problem

It seems you are the one not understanding.

[rtmohanlal]

8 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

As a matter of fact, Imran is still featuring in the top 5 of the @rtmohanlal 's list is because he is still being nice. Imran Khan's name cannot be counted in the same list as other greats because of his history of cheating, ball tampering. It's not even clear how much he benefited because of his cheating. He shouldnt be counted amongst the best at all!

It is not a matter of 'being nice'  mate .... it is a matter of 'confusion' & a matter of 'some sense'. Any way 'tampering' has nothing to  do with his

batting.That being the case   i go by my 'sense of analysing'  in that he would have  ended with some where in the range 28-30 with out tampering(the work density & support bowling  factors still counts as such though). More over  this 'tampering would have  hugely influenced his

one day bowling too .Any way I think, still with his batting credentials so superior to that of Hadlee in both formats &  his captaincy credentials, he would just get a little ahead of Hadlee. Just my thoughts. 

[Rightarmfast]

7 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

It is not a matter of 'being nice'  mate .... it is a matter of 'confusion' & a matter of 'some sense'. Any way 'tampering' has nothing to  do with his

batting.That being the case   i go by my 'sense of analysing'  in that he would have  ended with some where in the range 28-30 with out tampering(the work density & support bowling  factors still counts as such though). More over  this 'tampering would have  hugely influenced his

one day bowling too .Any way I think, still with his batting credentials so superior to that of Hadlee in both formats &  his captaincy credentials, he would just get a little ahead of Hadlee. Just my thoughts. 

Elaborate. 

In my opinion, without tampering, he would still be great. But not to the extent that he is portrayed now. Ofcourse the way he captained, the way he built Pakistan team is unparalleled. That still makes him great.

[rtmohanlal]

7 hours ago, gazza said:

If imran's tampering was so bad why is he still rated so highly by those who played against him and who are in their circle? Either what he did wasn't that bad or the others were doing it to...otherwise surely he'd get more ridicule from those who played with him, against him and those who associated with those people...

My stance on this matter goes in these lines.I just ask my conscious as to  what to do with a player, let alone several of  his contemporary opponents or other game related people, even  whose country men came forward with statements in public that he was seriously involved in this unfair tactics of tampering.That means he was unethical & unfair & cheated. My stance always is to discredit  such credentials & credit  others who were always fair. If I still am to rate Imran so highly, then I should just accept that it was Ben Johnson who won 100 mtrs in Seoul Olympics & not Carl lewis.And I just can't accept both of their credentials.   

[rtmohanlal]

11 hours ago, gazza said:

which is fine if that's how you think but imo if you think that way about guys like procter and rice then you have to think that way about players like Dennis Lillee and even don Bradman, we wouldn't be able to rate or compare any of these players if that's how we compared players. Imo the best way to rate players is by watching them, reading and listening to accounts of them, viewing all of their statistics and, comparing them to the best of their own era and then comparing them to everyone in any era.

 

i think there is a point where you have to say this player was the best in his era therefore there is reasonable reason to think he would be a great in any era, otherwise you can only rate players within the same era and also players can then only truly be greats if they played all over he world but that means disregarding players like Bradman and Lillee who either didn't play at all outside of a couple of countries or played very little outside of a couple of countries. Basically a player can only be great if he played from about the 60s/70s onwards because they are the only ones who played a lot in various different countries/conditions. 

Bradman is an exception so far ahead of his contemporaries, and that too in test cricket(i mean not only in first class cricket alone).So he is proven.Lillee... i am not sure... whether he would come out on top in comparisons with proven all conditions bowlers like Marshall.

Players like Procter,Rice .... no...they don't have even decent sample size in test matches..I just can't ... this because of the proven fact of so many players who were found wanting outside their comfort zones at international level  like Sehwag,Warner,Mahela,Kumble etc etc.Any way...

each to their own.   

[gazza]

I think it's quite preposterous to think so many people who played with and against Imran rate him as the best all rounder of his era due to 'courtesy' it simply makes no sense. If they thought the ball tampering was so bad they'd probably not say much about him at all let alone rate him as the best. which is why I said his tampering either wasn't as bad as is being made out or others were probably doing it to. Makes much more sense to still rate him highly considering these reasons than because of courtesy.

 

let's say he tampered in a severe manner, if that's true then it doesn't make a lot of sense for his opponents who would know what's going on to still rate him as the best, if anything they'd hold it against him and either not rate him at all or rate him poorly, but that isn't the case, he's actually rated very highly.

Edited June 26, 2017 by gazza

[rtmohanlal]

1 hour ago, gazza said:

I think it's quite preposterous to think so many people who played with and against Imran rate him as the best all rounder of his era due to 'courtesy' it simply makes no sense. If they thought the ball tampering was so bad they'd probably not say much about him at all let alone rate him as the best. which is why I said his tampering either wasn't as bad as is being made out or others were probably doing it to. Makes much more sense to still rate him highly considering these reasons than because of courtesy.

 

let's say he tampered in a severe manner, if that's true then it doesn't make a lot of sense for his opponents who would know what's going on to still rate him as the best, if anything they'd hold it against him and either not rate him at all or rate him poorly, but that isn't the case, he's actually rated very highly.

Botham ,Lamb & Smith does not rate Imran that high.Sandhu has clearly said  that he doesn't consider Imran as better to Kapil. Maninder has severely  criticised the PAK bowling of 83 IND series for tampering.Mohinder & Sastri  expressed their serious doubts w.r.t Imran's effectiveness in that  83 series. People like John Reid has made a mockery of Imran. And all these names I have  mentioned, never have till now come up with their lists of all rounder or some thing like that any where..So I am not sure about you claims here.  

[rtmohanlal]

'Botham spoke about how hard it was to restrict the book to 50 personalities and even expressed a desire to write on 50 greatest sportsmen of his time.Asked by the interviewer whether Pakistan great Imran Khan would be in it, Botham said: "No, he wouldn't get close. Wasn't good enough. It's not a personal thing. He just wasn't good enough." It can be recalled that Botham sued Imran Khan over ball-tampering in 1996 and lost. '

 

The above anecdote clearly indicates as to how Botham indirectly denotes the point of Imran's tampering by claiming 'Wasn't good enough' despite being well aware of the stats of Imran & also being a little cautious w.r.t not going over the top in order to avoid  further controversies.

Edited June 26, 2017 by rtmohanlal

[Rightarmfast]

/\ Add to that, Richard Hadlee himself said the same thing, without ofcourse naming anyone. The video is available on youtube too.

[gazza]

Richard Hadlee himself rates Imran the best of the 4 all rounders of that era... many others do to you just have research it a bit. In fact Hadlee believes tampering should be legal, he said this back in the 90s and still maintains it.

Edited June 26, 2017 by gazza

[Vijy]

Keith Miller didn't bowl much because of injuries, etc. but his overall stats are hugely impressive - he was a genuine middle-order batsman throughout (unlike Imran whose batting evolved over time).

[rtmohanlal]

17 hours ago, gazza said:

Richard Hadlee himself rates Imran the best of the 4 all rounders of that era... many others do to you just have research it a bit. In fact Hadlee believes tampering should be legal, he said this back in the 90s and still maintains it.

Perhaps I  can't recall the instance of Hadlee stating 'tampering should be legal' or I am hearing this for the first time. Any way if it has to be believed, then this indicates to one more thing.  Hadlee too was guilty of  involving in this  illegal exercise at least in minimal levels when compared to Imran.Other wise, if he was cent percent saint in this matter, he would have vehemently  opposed to such an unethical matter.That is just psychological.  In the late 70s & early 80s there were a handful of  world class bowlers in Lillee, Thompson,Hadlee,Imran,Wasim,Kapil, Bohtam ,Willis,Underwood,Marshall,Roberts,Holding,Garner,Clarke,,Walsh etc etc. Of these the only one bowler who played a lot 86 tests,with out any bowling support & yet ended up with an ATG average of 22.31 was Hadlee. I often wondered about how a bowler could end up that good against such a load of adversities and marvel about his quality as abowler. Now that I come to realise this statement of  his, I am forced to firmly believe that he too had his fair share of this evil .That inturn raises the esteem of both Kapil & Botham in my mind even more.Kapil was clean w.r.t this factor.Botham too,  despite having  issues w.r.t some drugs discipline etc etc was clean in this matter .So both gets even more credit  in my book.        

Edited June 27, 2017 by rtmohanlal

[cuttermaster]

Outside of this forum and a few hypernationalist Indian fans, no one rates Kapil above Imran - not even in the same ballpark as him. 

 

These conditions and twists RTM Lal is trying to hide behind are pitiful. Imran's contemporaries uniformly rate him as the best. This is the reality. TBH Shakib is equal or better than Dev by RTM Lal's own criteria.

 

Sobers is alone. Then Imran, Botham and Miller. Then Kallis. Then the rest.   

[cuttermaster]

22 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

'Botham spoke about how hard it was to restrict the book to 50 personalities and even expressed a desire to write on 50 greatest sportsmen of his time.Asked by the interviewer whether Pakistan great Imran Khan would be in it, Botham said: "No, he wouldn't get close. Wasn't good enough. It's not a personal thing. He just wasn't good enough." It can be recalled that Botham sued Imran Khan over ball-tampering in 1996 and lost. '

 

The above anecdote clearly indicates as to how Botham indirectly denotes the point of Imran's tampering by claiming 'Wasn't good enough' despite being well aware of the stats of Imran & also being a little cautious w.r.t not going over the top in order to avoid  further controversies.

 

The bitterness is highlighted there and it is the same RTM Lal is showing with his nonsense positions against all visual evidence of those who saw these guys play, all peer opinions, that of experts and analysts etc. 

 

[rtmohanlal]

1 hour ago, cuttermaster said:

Outside of this forum and a few hypernationalist Indian fans, no one rates Kapil above Imran - not even in the same ballpark as him. 

 

These conditions and twists RTM Lal is trying to hide behind are pitiful. Imran's contemporaries uniformly rate him as the best. This is the reality. TBH Shakib is equal or better than Dev by RTM Lal's own criteria.

 

Sobers is alone. Then Imran, Botham and Miller. Then Kallis. Then the rest.   

I have put forward some names in my earlier posts.They all were Imran's contemporaries too...For your info:, they accuses Imran in varying levels .

Edited June 27, 2017 by rtmohanlal

[gazza]

Barry Richards, Ian Chappell, Allan donald, Geoff Lawson. All these guys and probably others suggest to legalise it, some even admit that it happened, they call it preparing the ball. I can present links if you'd like, all you need to do is type in "legalise ball tampering" into google and these articles will come up. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by gazza