Kuldeep Yadav vs Ashwin Ravichandran in ODIs

[sensible-indian]

1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

No, in 2010, Ashwin was the 'six variations in an over' kinda guy. Which is why he got clobbered by patient batsmen in tests. Then he matured into the classic test bowler who can bowl six of the same balls on a perfect dime to relentlessly attack/bottle up a batsman. 

That approach no longer works in ODIs, where even if you bowled six balls on the same exact 'bad spot' for the said batsman, the 5th/6th ball will disappear over the boundary.

 

I think you may be confusing several issues.

 

In 2010, Ashwin was accuracy personified. Today Ashwin has more guile, flight, dip and drift but he bowls more bad balls. But then it doesn't matter as long as his good ones pick wickets in tests.

 

Look at Washington Sundar. Last IPL, he was as accurate as Ashwin was and he did very well even though he doesn't turn it much at all. Not comparing both but just talking about accuracy.

[sensible-indian]

2 minutes ago, Vijy said:

this has been my impression too. he has focused more on his stock ball and became more effective in tests... I believe that his low point in Tests came in SA (Jo'burg). During the earlier stages of his career, he was more of a "mystery" bowler who relied more on variations. However, in the last 2 years, he has become more orthodox. As a result, his ODI record has suffered since he has not shown the adaptability between diff. formats (same failing with Jaddu too) unlike Kuldeep.

I think these are theories.

 

Play him on the tracks Mishra ji, Chahal, Kuldeep and Axar played post 2015 and he would do well. Would he do as well as them? Dunno. But he would do well. 

 

In 2015, he bowled on turners against Sri Lanka and averaged like 4 in a series. Looked great against SA in T20s too. Same orthodox action.

 

Issue is his accuracy isn't what it was. Even in CT 2013, he wasn't that accurate as he was in the past.

Edited October 8, 2017 by sensible-indian

[Muloghonto]

1 minute ago, sensible-indian said:

I think you may be confusing several issues.

 

In 2010, Ashwin was accuracy personified. Today Ashwin has more guile, flight, dip and drift but he bowls more bad balls. But then it doesn't matter as long as his good ones pick wickets in tests.

 

Look at Washington Sundar. Last IPL, he was as accurate as Ashwin was and he did very well even though he doesn't turn it much at all. Not comparing both but just talking about accuracy.

No, i feel Ashwin for last 2 years is far more accurate a bowler than when he first came. As Vijy said, he was more mystery bowler back then, trying to do too much. Almost over-reliant on his doosra (or what his version of it is) as Saqlain was to his. Now, Ashwin is the more classical 'i bowl six balls on a dime that makes you most uncomfortable' kind of bowler. 
Thats the kind of bowler who succeeds in tests and not so much in ODIs anymore. 

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

No, i feel Ashwin for last 2 years is far more accurate a bowler than when he first came. As Vijy said, he was more mystery bowler back then, trying to do too much. Almost over-reliant on his doosra (or what his version of it is) as Saqlain was to his. Now, Ashwin is the more classical 'i bowl six balls on a dime that makes you most uncomfortable' kind of bowler. 
Thats the kind of bowler who succeeds in tests and not so much in ODIs anymore. 

that's been my impression too. let's not forget his successes initially were in T20s and ODIs in the era of Mendis, Narine, and other mystery spinners. In fact, people knew of him first as the guy who bowled the carrom ball, etc. he was seen partially as our answer to mendis, who had bamboozled the Ind batsmen apart from sehwag in SL.

 

now, he has moved closer to being an orthodox off spinner like lyon.

[sensible-indian]

Just now, Muloghonto said:

No, i feel Ashwin for last 2 years is far more accurate a bowler than when he first came. As Vijy said, he was more mystery bowler back then, trying to do too much. Almost over-reliant on his doosra (or what his version of it is) as Saqlain was to his. Now, Ashwin is the more classical 'i bowl six balls on a dime that makes you most uncomfortable' kind of bowler. 
Thats the kind of bowler who succeeds in tests and not so much in ODIs anymore. 

Ashwin bowls more annoying bad balls than in the past. When he first came on to the scene, he was simply unstoppable in both LOI formats.

 

Picked like 2-3 wickets per game in List A games at that time (I used to wonder who is this Ashwin guy checking Hindu).

Was a huge hit in IPL, Champions League.

Destroyed NZ in India under Gambo's leadership.

Looked amazing in WC 2011.

 

Test is different. He wasn't a better bowler back then.

 

After 2011, his IPL performances have been dropping badly.

[Vijy]

5 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

I think these are theories.

 

Play him on the tracks Mishra ji, Chahal, Kuldeep and Axar played post 2015 and he would do well. Would he do as well as them? Dunno. But he would do well. 

 

In 2015, he bowled on turners against Sri Lanka and averaged like 4 in a series. Looked great against SA in T20s too. Same orthodox action.

 

Issue is his accuracy isn't what it was. Even in CT 2013, he wasn't that accurate as he was in the past.

mishra-ji played before 2015 too and was always a better LOI spinner than Jaddu and Ashwin. In fact, if not for his attitude and fitness, he would have been the No.1 spinner for India in these formats (in the past before Kuldeep/Chahal).

[Muloghonto]

Just now, Vijy said:

that's been my impression too. let's not forget his successes initially were in T20s and ODIs in the era of Mendis, Narine, and other mystery spinners. In fact, people knew of him first as the guy who bowled the carrom ball, etc. he was seen partially as our answer to mendis, who had bamboozled the Ind batsmen apart from sehwag in SL.

 

now, he has moved closer to being an orthodox off spinner like lyon.

yup. exactly.
I feel this is true for fast bowlers as well. limited over cricket has diverged so much from test cricket, that now, the best bowling formula for limited overs cricket is 'bowl variations without giving width', whereas tests is still about 'bowl balls batsmen can do nothing about, repeatedly, till they bottle it'. I think thats why we have the curious cases of Rabada, Ashwin, etc. struggling to be good in both formats. IIRC Steyn too, was very very mediocre in ODIs till the last 2-3 years. 

[sensible-indian]

Just now, Vijy said:

mishra-ji played before 2015 too and was always a better LOI spinner than Jaddu and Ashwin. In fact, if not for his attitude and fitness, he would have been the No.1 spinner for India in these formats (in the past before Kuldeep/Chahal).

Mishra ji was only better on turners.

 

Flatties and in pressure situations, he would single handedly lose you the game. Check the data. 

 

There is a reason why he never became a regular in any format even though he made his debut back in 2004.

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Ashwin bowls more annoying bad balls than in the past. When he first came on to the scene, he was simply unstoppable in both LOI formats.

 

Picked like 2-3 wickets per game in List A games at that time (I used to wonder who is this Ashwin guy checking Hindu).

Was a huge hit in IPL, Champions League.

Destroyed NZ in India under Gambo's leadership.

Looked amazing in WC 2011.

 

Test is different. He wasn't a better bowler back then.

 

After 2011, his IPL performances have been dropping badly.

picked up 14 wkts in 7 matches in 2010, and avg 23. In 2011, picked 25 wkts in 18 matches at almost 30. since then it was downhill, apart from 2015.

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

yup. exactly.
I feel this is true for fast bowlers as well. limited over cricket has diverged so much from test cricket, that now, the best bowling formula for limited overs cricket is 'bowl variations without giving width', whereas tests is still about 'bowl balls batsmen can do nothing about, repeatedly, till they bottle it'. I think thats why we have the curious cases of Rabada, Ashwin, etc. struggling to be good in both formats. IIRC Steyn too, was very very mediocre in ODIs till the last 2-3 years. 

rabada is still much better than ash in ODIs.

[Muloghonto]

2 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Ashwin bowls more annoying bad balls than in the past. When he first came on to the scene, he was simply unstoppable in both LOI formats.

 

Picked like 2-3 wickets per game in List A games at that time (I used to wonder who is this Ashwin guy checking Hindu).

Was a huge hit in IPL, Champions League.

Destroyed NZ in India under Gambo's leadership.

Looked amazing in WC 2011.

 

Test is different. He wasn't a better bowler back then.

 

After 2011, his IPL performances have been dropping badly.

Yes, because he switched from being the mystery bowler who will bowl 6 variations a match, to a guy who bowls at the perfect spot to  trouble batsmen, every ball. 

He isn't less accurate in ODIs/T20s, he is way more accurate, he is just way more predictable. 

 

In tests, you can deal with mystery bowlers by going 'ok, i will block till u give me width', which will happen when you try so many variations. In ODIs, your variations win out in the end, because batsmen feel pressure to score runs. In tests, its the exact opposite. After 15 overs of no wickets,the bowler gets frustrated and then the batsmen cash in. 
 

This is not just Ashwin, its a lot of bowlers, who have switched to being more effective in tests and compromised their LOI effectiveness and vice versa.

[Muloghonto]

Just now, Vijy said:

rabada is still much better than ash in ODIs.

Yes, but i think he still fits the pattern of being an elite test bowler who is nowhere close to being elite in limited overs format. 

 

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Yes, but i think he still fits the pattern of being an elite test bowler who is nowhere close to being elite in limited overs format. 

 

that's true. moreover, rabada and ashwin (and philander) are so far only good in home conditions or against minnows like WI. ashwin is yet to take a 5-fer in SA, Eng and Aus I think and the same also goes for rabada and philander in SC.

[sensible-indian]

Just now, Muloghonto said:

Yes, because he switched from being the mystery bowler who will bowl 6 variations a match, to a guy who bowls at the perfect spot to  trouble batsmen, every ball. 

He isn't less accurate in ODIs/T20s, he is way more accurate, he is just way more predictable. 

 

In tests, you can deal with mystery bowlers by going 'ok, i will block till u give me width', which will happen when you try so many variations. In ODIs, your variations win out in the end, because batsmen feel pressure to score runs. In tests, its the exact opposite. After 15 overs of no wickets,the bowler gets frustrated and then the batsmen cash in. 
 

This is not just Ashwin, its a lot of bowlers, who have switched to being more effective in tests and compromised their LOI effectiveness and vice versa.

That's what didn't happen.

 

He worked on his action (accelerated more when coming onto the crease), wrist position, body and thus got better with flight, dip and drift.

 

The qualities needed to succeed in test cricket.

 

His accuracy is down. Old Ashwin gave nothing away in LOI. 

 

Ashwin of today will pitch one too full or too short and get whacked.

[sensible-indian]

He has the requisite accuracy to be successful in test cricket but it's nowhere close to what he had in past (for LOIs).

 

That's my point.

[Muloghonto]

1 minute ago, sensible-indian said:

That's what didn't happen.

 

He worked on his action (accelerated more when coming onto the crease), wrist position, body and thus got better with flight, dip and drift.

 

The qualities needed to succeed in test cricket.

 

His accuracy is down. Old Ashwin gave nothing away in LOI. 

 

Ashwin of today will pitch one too full or too short and get whacked.

i am sorry but do you actually see Ashwin bowl ? he bowls on the dime (same spot) over and over again, far better now than he did 4 years ago...in every format.

Just because someone is getting hit, doesnt mean his accuracy is down. You can be as accurate you want, as a spinner but if you are predictable, you will get clobbered in the limited overs format. 

if Old ashen was so accurate, he wouldn't be so bad against quality test batsmen on spinner friendly wickets. Because accuracy from a spinner almost always means tons of wickets on spinner-friendly wickets in tests. 

[Muloghonto]

Just now, sensible-indian said:

He has the requisite accuracy to be successful in test cricket but it's nowhere close to what he had in past (for LOIs).

 

That's my point.

A bowler doesnt become more/less accurate depending on the format. 

There was a cricinfo article on this a few months back too. On how if you are accurate but predictable in LOIs, you are toast as a spinner. 

He had way more variations in LOIs in the past, which kept batsmen guessing more. 

[Vijy]

Just now, Muloghonto said:

i am sorry but do you actually see Ashwin bowl ? he bowls on the dime (same spot) over and over again, far better now than he did 4 years ago...in every format.

Just because someone is getting hit, doesnt mean his accuracy is down. You can be as accurate you want, as a spinner but if you are predictable, you will get clobbered in the limited overs format. 

if Old ashen was so accurate, he wouldn't be so bad against quality test batsmen on spinner friendly wickets. Because accuracy from a spinner almost always means tons of wickets on spinner-friendly wickets in tests. 

yes, as per this tag of "accuracy", bowlers like gavin larsen would still be kings in LOIs in the 2010s. In reality, they would be given a thrashing if they played now. the game has changed greatly. ashwin turns the ball, but not massively. hence, if he was so accurate and bowled the same line and length, he would be treated as a slow medium bowler and given a thrashing.

[sensible-indian]

Just now, Muloghonto said:

i am sorry but do you actually see Ashwin bowl ? he bowls on the dime (same spot) over and over again, far better now than he did 4 years ago...in every format.

Just because someone is getting hit, doesnt mean his accuracy is down. You can be as accurate you want, as a spinner but if you are predictable, you will get clobbered in the limited overs format. 

if Old ashen was so accurate, he wouldn't be so bad against quality test batsmen on spinner friendly wickets. Because accuracy from a spinner almost always means tons of wickets on spinner-friendly wickets in tests. 

I understand your point and from where you are coming at.

 

As I said above, Ashwin now has the requisite accuracy to succeed in tests but doesn't have the accuracy that he had once in LOI.

 

Old Ashwin wasn't great in tests because he would get wayyyy too impatient and try many things when it wasn't going in his favour. Moreover, his 2012 fiasco was mainly because he had a technical glitch which led him to SPRAY the ball around. He didn't average 50+ against England bowling accurately.

 

There are degrees of accuracy.

[Muloghonto]

Just now, sensible-indian said:

I understand your point and from where you are coming at.

 

As I said above, Ashwin now has the requisite accuracy to succeed in tests but doesn't have the accuracy that he had once in LOI.

 

Old Ashwin wasn't great in tests because he would get wayyyy too impatient and try many things when it wasn't going in his favour. Moreover, his 2012 fiasco was mainly because he had a technical glitch which led him to SPRAY the ball around. He didn't average 50+ against England bowling accurately.

 

There are degrees of accuracy.

This bolded part makes no sense. 
A bowler doesnt become more/less accurate depending on which format they bowl ?!