Zaheer Khan - One of top 5 toughest bowlers I faced: Kevin Peterson

[Straight Drive]

11 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Vaas carried his country's weight for a long time. What a player he was. I wont rate him above Zak though.

Trent Boult still has a long career ahead and he may be up there if he manages to play more years.

 

Neil Wagner is back in form too in recent past.

 

Sheldon Cottrell isn't that impressive.

 

 

Some lefties who failed to make their name in test cricket:

 

Nathan Bracken

Alan Mullaly

Ryan Sidebottom

Mohd. Irfan 

Junaid Khan

Wahab Riaz

Irfan Pathan 

Ashish Nehra

Jaydev Unadkat

Sreenath Arvind

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Straight Drive

[Rightarmfast]

32 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

Trent Boult still has a long career ahead and he may be up there if he manages to play more years.

 

Neil Wagner is back in form too in recent past.

 

Sheldon Cottrell isn't that impressive.

 

 

Some lefties who failed to make their name in test cricket:

 

Nathan Bracken

Alan Mullaly

Ryan Sidebottom

Mohd. Irfan 

Junaid Khan

Wahab Riaz

Irfan Pathan 

Ashish Nehra

Jaydev Unadkat

Sreenath Arvind

 

 

 

 

 

 

Would you agree that Wahab Riaz and Irfan Pathan have been the worst losses for world cricket? If only....

[Straight Drive]

26 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Would you agree that Wahab Riaz and Irfan Pathan have been the worst losses for world cricket? If only....

Irfan Pathan and Flintoff have pretty similar career stats. Yet Flintoff being more flamboyant takes the limelight.

 

Irfan Pathan has troubled with his inswinging deliveries to right handers. But his injuries has impacted his career. Many a times he did not even play full Ranji season due to injuries. But he did a reasonable job for India as an all rounder. I repeat his stats and Freddie's are similar.  He had a county  contract with Middlesex.

 

Wahab Riaz bowled at a good pace. His career to got affected by injuries and then his pace and performance dropped. Wahab Riaz had a county stint, but I think he played only T20 like Sohail Tanvir in Friends life T20. He was with Kent and Essex. Think his Kent contract was for CC and Essex was for T20.

 

So both players tried to opt for county when they could which was a good sign. Both did not have a long test career.

 

Indian teams have not had as many captain's as Pakistan teams have. So the selections of Wahab Riaz was affected at times due to captaincy and selector changes which were more frequent.

 

Injuries have had a huge impact on their career. Else there was hardly any competition to Irfan as pace bowling all rounder. He was much better than Manoj Prabhakar. Hardik Pandya is nowhere near him yet in test cricket. 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Straight Drive

[Vijy]

On 2/2/2018 at 11:27 AM, Tattieboy said:

My top 5 would be 

Wasim Akram

Alan Davidson 

Gary Sobers 

Zaheer Khan

Mitchell Johnson 

Not in any order except Wasim no 1

A good list. I read your rationale about Sobers, but I would not put him as high as top 5. Mine would be Akram, Davidson, Reid, Starc (if he maintains his form) and Zak/Vaas. there are some oldies who were highly rated that none of us have seen: Toshack (member of Bradman's invincibles who avg 21) and Voce (who played in Bodyline and had career avg of 27-28).

 

And there's Brett Schulz, who I did see, and I think he would be in top 5 of all time if not for injuries - had genuine pace (comparable to peak MJ) and swing.

[Vijy]

5 hours ago, Straight Drive said:

Irfan Pathan and Flintoff have pretty similar career stats. Yet Flintoff being more flamboyant takes the limelight.

 

Irfan Pathan has troubled with his inswinging deliveries to right handers. But his injuries has impacted his career. Many a times he did not even play full Ranji season due to injuries. But he did a reasonable job for India as an all rounder. I repeat his stats and Freddie's are similar.  He had a county  contract with Middlesex.

 

Wahab Riaz bowled at a good pace. His career to got affected by injuries and then his pace and performance dropped. Wahab Riaz had a county stint, but I think he played only T20 like Sohail Tanvir in Friends life T20. He was with Kent and Essex. Think his Kent contract was for CC and Essex was for T20.

 

So both players tried to opt for county when they could which was a good sign. Both did not have a long test career.

 

Indian teams have not had as many captain's as Pakistan teams have. So the selections of Wahab Riaz was affected at times due to captaincy and selector changes which were more frequent.

 

Injuries have had a huge impact on their career. Else there was hardly any competition to Irfan as pace bowling all rounder. He was much better than Manoj Prabhakar. Hardik Pandya is nowhere near him yet in test cricket. 

the main difference between flinty and pathan is that flintoff had a fairly equitable record while pathan's record was mostly due to massive pwnage of very weak Bangladeshs and zim teams. moreover, irfan was a useful batsman but flintoff was more of a genuine No.6

[Tattieboy]

2 hours ago, Vijy said:

A good list. I read your rationale about Sobers, but I would not put him as high as top 5. Mine would be Akram, Davidson, Reid, Starc (if he maintains his form) and Zak/Vaas. there are some oldies who were highly rated that none of us have seen: Toshack (member of Bradman's invincibles who avg 21) and Voce (who played in Bodyline and had career avg of 27-28).

 

And there's Brett Schulz, who I did see, and I think he would be in top 5 of all time if not for injuries - had genuine pace (comparable to peak MJ) and swing.

As I said earlier I can't include Reid because in my view 113 wickets is not enough . Sobers took 235 .

Starc for me can only be judged at end of his career but he is heading to be in top 5 .

Bill Voce I am afraid I missed seeing him bowl just by a couple of years  but I have read about him and when I started my cricketing career people were alive who had played against and with him who rated him highly .

[Vijy]

19 minutes ago, Tattieboy said:

As I said earlier I can't include Reid because in my view 113 wickets is not enough . Sobers took 235 .

Starc for me can only be judged at end of his career but he is heading to be in top 5 .

Bill Voce I am afraid I missed seeing him bowl just by a couple of years  but I have read about him and when I started my cricketing career people were alive who had played against and with him who rated him highly .

But Sobers took 235 through a combination of spin (chinaman, orthodox) and pace. Hence, if it's just pace (maybe around 150-160 wkts), I think his record would not be that much behind Reid.

[Tattieboy]

1 minute ago, Vijy said:

But Sobers took 235 through a combination of spin (chinaman, orthodox) and pace. Hence, if it's just pace (maybe around 150-160 wkts), I think his record would not be that much behind Reid.

He did but no one has exact figures of the breakdown . 

Many others believe Johnson to be in a top 5 but for me he didn't float my boat and I place both Sobers and Reid as better bowlers. 

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, Tattieboy said:

He did but no one has exact figures of the breakdown . 

Many others believe Johnson to be in a top 5 but for me he didn't float my boat and I place both Sobers and Reid as better bowlers. 

It's not possible for Mary Jane (sorry, Mitchell Johnson) to be in the top 5. He was simply too inconsistent throughout his career to be considered a genuine threat seen as a whole. I agree that the breakdown for Sobers is unknown, but his record (e.g. SR, no. of 4-fers and 5-fers) clearly shows that he was more of a restraining bowler than a genuine spearhead.

 

With the exception of the prehistoric Faulkner (who took 4 or more wkts once every 5 innings), I don't think that any of the batting allrounders in history could be regarded as genuine strike bowlers. At least in a statistical sense, this is true for Sobers as well, although he was definitely more of a genuine bowler than other batting allrounders like Kallis, Greig, etc.

[Vijy]

42 minutes ago, Tattieboy said:

As I said earlier I can't include Reid because in my view 113 wickets is not enough . Sobers took 235 .

Starc for me can only be judged at end of his career but he is heading to be in top 5 .

Bill Voce I am afraid I missed seeing him bowl just by a couple of years  but I have read about him and when I started my cricketing career people were alive who had played against and with him who rated him highly .

There were people who had actually played against Old Man Voce? Voce played till 1952. If someone had played against him as a young guy, they must have been around 20, i.e. indicating that they were born in 1932 (around 85 years back).

 

[Tattieboy]

6 minutes ago, Vijy said:

There were people who had actually played against Old Man Voce? Voce played till 1952. If someone had played against him as a young guy, they must have been around 20, i.e. indicating that they were born in 1932 (around 85 years back).

 

My father was born in 1932 and he played against Toshak 

[Vijy]

54 minutes ago, Tattieboy said:

My father was born in 1932 and he played against Toshak 

Pretty amazing! Toshack was a key member of Bradman's invincibles. Your father must have played against other members too - Morris, Miller, even the man himself (Bradman), etc.

[Straight Drive]

7 hours ago, Vijy said:

the main difference between flinty and pathan is that flintoff had a fairly equitable record while pathan's record was mostly due to massive pwnage of very weak Bangladeshs and zim teams. moreover, irfan was a useful batsman but flintoff was more of a genuine No.6

Irfan was a better test bowler. He took more fiver fees and has one ten get. Flintoff's ability to take five get is well below par in comparison with Irfan and Irfan bowled in less than half the no of innings than Freddie.

 

Both played almost same number of ODI.

Flintoff ends with better average, but Irfan dominates the five feet taking ability.

 

 

I haven't checked which condition has Irfan bowled against. Guess it would be more in non pace friendly subcontinental wickets, and guess Freddie must have bowled most in England.

[Tattieboy]

4 hours ago, Vijy said:

Pretty amazing! Toshack was a key member of Bradman's invincibles. Your father must have played against other members too - Morris, Miller, even the man himself (Bradman), etc.

Only other invincible member I am aware of was Sid Barnes ( batsman ) 

I did learn on day after my father's  death that Sir Colin Cowdrey was in Royal Air Force for a month doing national service and he and my father opened together for the RAF in the only game Cowdrey played.

[Rightarmfast]

2 hours ago, Straight Drive said:

Irfan was a better test bowler. He took more fiver fees and has one ten get. Flintoff's ability to take five get is well below par in comparison with Irfan and Irfan bowled in less than half the no of innings than Freddie.

 

Both played almost same number of ODI.

Flintoff ends with better average, but Irfan dominates the five feet taking ability.

 

 

I haven't checked which condition has Irfan bowled against. Guess it would be more in non pace friendly subcontinental wickets, and guess Freddie must have bowled most in England.

Irfan had huge talent. But I must say, for longevity again, and for bowling 150+, despite also contributing a bit with bat, one cant discount Freddie. He was a magnificent player and I daresay a way better player than Botham. Freddie bowled like a genuine bowler, and could bat like a genuine batsman when need be. 

[Straight Drive]

1 hour ago, Rightarmfast said:

Irfan had huge talent. But I must say, for longevity again, and for bowling 150+, despite also contributing a bit with bat, one cant discount Freddie. He was a magnificent player and I daresay a way better player than Botham. Freddie bowled like a genuine bowler, and could bat like a genuine batsman when need be. 

Irfan has himself to blame for fitness. He was not who over burdened with workloads. He played under many captains: Azhar, Saurav and Dhoni. Also he was given promotions in batting order at times - as pinch hitter at 3  in some ODI's and promotion in test batting lineup. He was being rewarded by captains. 

 

Bothams best was at Headingley in 1981. 

Test 1:
Aussies had won the first test. Botham did not contribute too much. few runs and few wickets to his name. The score was 1-0 in favor of Aussies.

Test 2:
The second test at Lords was drawn. Botham scored a pair and took just 3 wickets. Botham was sacked as captain with Mike Brearely,who is rated as one of the best captain ever if not the best.
Aussies were still leading 1-0 in the Ashes in England. 

Test 3:
The third test was being dominated by Aussies.  England were 135/7 while being on follow on. Botham made 149 not out. In that test Botham had scored 199 runs and 7 wickets. That was one of the best performance ever in test cricket. Bon Willis took 8 wickets in Aussies second innings as well. Scoreline was 1-1.

 

Test 4:
In the 4th test, Botham took last 5 wickets for one run. Those 5 wickets ensured Aussies were bowled out from 114/5 to 121 all out. England won by 29 runs in spite of just having 151 runs to defend. Scoreline was then 2-1 in favor of England.

 

Test 5:
In 5th test, Botham scored a quick 118 runs and took England to safety from 104/5. Border tried to save it for Aussies, however England won by 103 runs. England were leading 3-1.

 

TEST 6:
The 6th test was a draw. Botham took 10 wickets and scored 19 runs.The 1981 Ashes was won by England with score line of 4-1. 

 

Botham scored 399 runs in that series along with topping as higest wicket taking bowler in that series with 34 scalps. The series was then known as "Botham's Ashes". That was the greatest performance even in Ashes. 

 

The only other being close to it was Johnson's series performance in 2013 Ashes in Australia. Australia whitewashed England 5-0. Johnson took 37 wickets and had scored 165 runs. 

[Tattieboy]

9 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Irfan had huge talent. But I must say, for longevity again, and for bowling 150+, despite also contributing a bit with bat, one cant discount Freddie. He was a magnificent player and I daresay a way better player than Botham. Freddie bowled like a genuine bowler, and could bat like a genuine batsman when need be. 

Seriously??...Flintoff WAY better than Botham.......I think not 

[Vijy]

4 minutes ago, Tattieboy said:

Seriously??...Flintoff WAY better than Botham.......I think not 

If anything, Flintoff was WAY worse than Botham, who was both a genuine top 6 and opening strike bowler for the first half of his career. I think at one stage he was averaging in the high 30s (or low 40s) and taking over 4.5 wkts per match.

[Vijy]

10 hours ago, Tattieboy said:

Only other invincible member I am aware of was Sid Barnes ( batsman ) 

I did learn on day after my father's  death that Sir Colin Cowdrey was in Royal Air Force for a month doing national service and he and my father opened together for the RAF in the only game Cowdrey played.

Sid Barnes ended with a great Test record, although he didn't play many matches. Supposed to have been a very talented batsman.

[Tattieboy]

16 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Sid Barnes ended with a great Test record, although he didn't play many matches. Supposed to have been a very talented batsman.

Talented but troublesome , the war interrupted his test career like most of them.