Sehwag versus GC Smith

[Majestic]

11 hours ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Not really. Let's see when all 4 Sehwag, Sachin, Dravid and VVS played together in Asia - i.e. in 48 tests

Sehwag: 5019 runs@65

Dravid: 3773 runs@53

Sachin: 3429 runs@50

VVS: 3068 runs@53

 

Sehwag outscored them by 35%, 50% and 70%!! That too when he was scoring at almost 70% higher strike rate than others. In fact, if he hadn't missed Asian tests in 2006 and 2007, the gap would have been higher as he showed post his comeback in 2007-08

 

This is the point here. Sehwag was a beast in conditions where we had all our batsman performing with bat, Sehwag just performed more than them.

 

But in alien conditions, where we wish to win more matches ( we were always beast at home whether it is 90s or even 70s), this is where you have to look at who contributed more to Indian test team.

 

Tendulkar, Gavaskar, Dravid, Kohli, Laxman, Pant all these guys were better than Viru in alien conditions.

 

Performance in alien conditions >> Performance in favourable conditions.

 

A guy like Rahane who suspiciously ended up playing 90 tests is also because he got the tag of overseas specialist after his first tour. Mohinder Amarnath with only 4000 runs at average of 41-42 is rated very highly due to his overseas performance too. That is the benchmark for Indian test cricketers, how they fare overseas.

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Majestic

[zen]

7 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Smith was a level superior bat to Sehwag as he has performed and won matches everywhere while Sehwag has poor batting stats in SEN with tailender level performance ( Avg of 20,25 and 27 in SEN), the places where there is lateral movement and a challenge for openers to deal with.

 

South Africa are a bit underrated as cricket nation due to not being part of Big 3 so yes because of that Sehwag, Hayden and Cook are more likely to get into AT XI than Smith would.

 

I have already proved that Laxman has won more matches than Sehwag has even performed in SENA conditions. Perth, Johannesburg, Durban, Adelaide, Sydney and Napier( again everyone contributed with bat to save the test match and won the series except one man who threw away his wicket), these are several memorable performances by Laxman. Sehwag had only Adelaide 07 and Melbourne 03. KL Rahul has also won more matches than Sehwag in SEN and he is an opener.

 

Other reason for picking Sehwag is that he can dominate in favorable conditions whether in Asia, Australia or WI (and even on good batting surfaces elsewhere). In ODIs in NZ on green pitches where others failed, he hit 2 100s, so again he can do well if he focuses more. You can get Smith like openers.

 

Note that Laxman did not open, which is a tough job in SENA. If Sehwag batted in the lower middle order, he could have done well too in SENA (though as 3 100s as an opener, and 1 in the lower middle order), and KL has played for a different team, against a different team, and on different pitches. 

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by zen

[Majestic]

6 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Other reason for picking Sehwag is that he can dominate in favorable conditions whether in Asia, Australia or WI (and even on good batting surfaces elsewhere). In ODIs in NZ on green pitches where others failed, he hit 2 100s, so again he can do well if he focuses more. You can get Smith like openers.

 

Note that Laxman did not open, which is a tough job in SENA. If Sehwag batted in the lower middle order, he could have done well too in SENA (though as 3 100s as an opener, and 1 in the lower middle order), and KL has played for a different team, against a different team, and on different pitches. 

 

 

 

KL has played in tougher conditions than Sehwag. Take that for a start.

 

Also the knocks that VVS played and in situations where he played, others are not capable to do it consistently. He always scored the most clutch runs by any Indian batsman ever in Test cricket and in all/most conditions.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Majestic

[zen]

12 minutes ago, Majestic said:

KL has played in tougher conditions than Sehwag. Take that for a start. Also the knocks that VVS played and in situations where he played, others are not capable to do it consistently. He always scored the most clutch runs by any Indian batsman ever in Test cricket.

 

Like KL and Pant, SDP has a 90 in SA too where others failed. As I said, different teams, different conditions ... Rahane had a good record in SENA too. Atapattu could be better in more countries in SENA too ... Many times, Sehwag got out because of his attacking mindset, which is an acceptable risk when you have a unique player in the 11. A team has a variety of players. 

 

VVS has done well too. But as mentioned, he bats lower down the order. If we do a Subcon batsman versus SENA batsman for #5-6 spot, there may not be too many takers for VVS as there are heavy weights like Steve Waugh. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by zen

[Majestic]

1 minute ago, zen said:

 

Like KL and Pant, SDP has a 90 in SA too where others failed. Rahane had a good record in SENA too. As I said, different teams, different conditions ... Many times, Sehwag got out because of his attacking mindset, which is an acceptable risk when you have a unique player in the 11. A team has a variety of players. 

 

VVS has done well too. But as mentioned, he bats lower down the order. If we do a Subcon batsman versus SENA batsman for #5-6 spot, there may not be too many takers for VVS as there are heavy weights like Steve Waugh. 

Gavaskar is also a heavyweight only in front of Sehwag.

 

Rahane doesn't have a good record in SENA anymore. If he averaged 40+, it would have been good and I would have taken it with both hands irrespective of what he does at home.

 

Again, you are wrong in thinking that Sehwag got out only due to his attacking mindset overseas because firstly there is no rule in Test cricket that you need an explosive batsman along with other anchors. This is not ODI or T20 cricket. The great South African team had Kallis, Smith, AB and Amla playing together. None of them were explosive or striking at 70-75 but it was an ATG batting lineup. They all played as per the requirement. de Villiers or Pietersen were equally capable of playing explosive innings but they played as per the match situation. If the requirement was to grind out for hours because playing explosively will not work in those conditions, then they grinded out. Sehwag threw away his wicket in those conditions. 

 

He just didn't had the art to grind out overseas and this is extremely important in Test cricket, especially in conditions where the ball is swinging a mile. 

[zen]

2 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Gavaskar is also a heavyweight only in front of Sehwag.

 

Rahane doesn't have a good record in SENA anymore. If he averaged 40+, it would have been good and I would have taken it with both hands irrespective of what he does at home.

 

Again, you are wrong in thinking that Sehwag got out only due to his attacking mindset overseas because firstly there is no rule in Test cricket that you need an explosive batsman along with other anchors. This is not ODI or T20 cricket. The great South African team had Kallis, Smith, AB and Amla playing together. None of them were explosive or striking at 70-75 but it was an ATG batting lineup. They all played as per the requirement. de Villiers or Pietersen were equally capable of playing explosive innings but they played as per the match situation. If the requirement was to grind out for hours because playing explosively will not work in those conditions, then they grinded out. Sehwag threw away his wicket in those conditions. 

 

He just didn't had the art to grind out overseas and this is extremely important in Test cricket, especially in conditions where the ball is swinging a mile. 

 

That is not the point. Players like Sehwag and Gilchrist (like a Sehwag batting down the order) are rare in test cricket. Only 2 players in the history of modern test cricket to score over 5,000 runs at an average of 45+ and with a SR of 80+. 

 

Here is a nice article on Sehwag published in 2009 - Why Sehwag is the best batsman in the world today

[Majestic]

11 minutes ago, zen said:

 

That is not the point. Players like Sehwag and Gilchrist (like a Sehwag batting down the order) are rare in test cricket. Only 2 players in the history of modern test cricket to score over 5,000 runs at an average of 45+ and with a SR of 80+. 

 

Here is a nice article on Sehwag published in 2009 - Why Sehwag is the best batsman in the world today

My point here is that what is the use of 80+ SR? Did it helped him win his team test matches in SEN conditions? Had he strike at 70 instead and played couple of more crucial knocks overseas, that Indian team would have been GOAT Asian test team right there. But he just didn't do that. He never tried to grind it out even though the conditions were tough, this doesn't mean that he was smashing bowling in those conditions and didn't needed to grind out, no he was producing failure numbers in those conditions and that is why he never dominated a series completely overseas in SENA like he did in Asia. His impact was clearly lacking in alien conditions where the Dravids and Laxmans had to cover the hard yards to make up for his deficits.

 

Gilchrist was special and better because unlike Sehwag, he maintained that strike rate by performing in most conditions and that too as keeper bat.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Majestic

[zen]

8 minutes ago, Majestic said:

My point here is that what is the use of 80+ SR? Did it helped him win his team test matches in SEN conditions? Had he strike at 70 instead and played couple of more crucial knocks overseas, that Indian team would have been GOAT Asian test team right there. But he just didn't do that. He never tried to grind it out even though the conditions were tough, this doesn't mean that he was smashing bowling in those conditions, no he was producing failure numbers in those conditions and that is why he never dominated a series completely overseas in SENA like he did in Asia. His impact was clearly lacking in alien conditions where the Dravids and Laxmans had to cover the hard yards to make up for his deficits.

 

What is the fixation with SEN? There are many batsman who can be picked in a team that can do well in SEN. Even Sehwag could if he gets more opportunities. Why miss out on a unique player?

 

A team needs players to dominate in Asia as well.  SA itself would love to have a Sehwag in its line up to help it perform relatively much better in Asia (or anywhere when he gets going) as it has batsmen who can do relatively well in other conditions. 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by zen

[Majestic]

14 minutes ago, zen said:

 

What is the fixation with SEN? There are many batsman who can be picked in a team that can do well in SEN. Even Sehwag could if he gets more opportunities. Why miss out on a unique player?

 

A team needs players to dominate in Asia as well.  SA itself would love to have a Sehwag in its line up to help it perform relatively much better in Asia (or anywhere when he gets going) as it has batsmen who can do relatively well in other conditions. 

 

How many Indian batsman have done well in SEN? Very few.

 

And how many Indian batsman have performed in Asia? Plenty. What is hard to understand here?

 

What do you want at end of day? Continue winning matches at home but get crushed overseas?? Greatness is based on performances in alien conditions and not on dominating at home. We have dozen of players who can be Bradman at home and in Asia. Bring out the spin bashers, Mayank Agarwal, Karun Nair and Shreyas Iyer and they too will dominate in Asia. But will they do it in SEN? You need what you have in less proportion not what you have plenty of.

 

If Sehwag played for SA, he won't have worked in South Africa as opener itself for a start. He would have to play his game in a different style completely and look to succed in counties and built a solid game fo himself to be able to bat for 200 balls then only he would had a chance to represent SA as opener.

 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Majestic

[zen]

1 minute ago, Majestic said:

How many Indian batsman have done well in SEN? Very few.

 

And how many Indian batsman have performed in Asia? Plenty. What is hard to understand here?

 

What do you want at end of day? Continue winning matches at home but get crushed overseas?? Greatness is based on performances in alien conditions and not on dominating at home. We have dozen of players who can be Bradman at home and in Asia. Bring out the spin bashers, Mayank Agarwal, Karun Nair and Shreyas Iyer and they too will dominate in Asia. But will they do it in SEN? You need what you have in less proportion not what you have plenty of.

 

If Sehwag played for SA, he won't have worked in South Africa as opener itself for a start. He would have to play his game in a different style completely and look to succed in counties and built a solid game fo himself to be able to bat for 200 balls then only he would had a chance to represent SA as opener.

 

 

What has India got to do here? You are not picking players for India. You are picking players here for a general team. 

 

Sehwag is in a league of his own in Asia. He has comfortably outbatted the Fab 4, among the best batsmen in Asia, in the games all of them have played in. Smith is not in a league of his own in SENA.

 

From the modern era, Sehwag, Gilchrist, and Warne/Murali are unique players that most teams would like to have. You can find suitable replacement for other spots. 

 

[Majestic]

1 minute ago, zen said:

 

What has India got to do here? You are not picking players for India. You are picking players here for a general team. 

 

Sehwag is in a league of his own in Asia. He has comfortably outbatted the Fab 4, among the best batsmen in Asia, in the games all of them have played in. Smith is not in a league of his own in SENA.

 

From the modern era, Sehwag, Gilchrist, and Warne/Murali are unique players that most teams would like to have. You can find suitable replacement for other spots. 

 

Except that Gilchrist and Warne/Murali will win matches in most conditions while Sehwag is a walking wicket in SEN.

 

Sehwag is more like Ashwin, Kumble and Anderson. Condition specific match winner. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Majestic

[zen]

Just now, Majestic said:

Except that Gilchrist and Warne/Murali will win matches in most conditions while Sehwag is a walking wicket in SEN.

 

Does not matter (as the team has other batsmen too. It is not playing with 1 batsman) if he can provide a competitive advantage in Asia + Australia + WI, and even in SEN when he gets going.

[Majestic]

@zen,

 

Special players who were unique in every regard but also performed in all conditions:-

 

Lara

Warne

Gilchrist

Wasim

de Villiers

Pietersen

 

Special players who were unique and dominant in specific conditions:-

 

Anderson

Ashwin

Kumble

Sehwag

Philander

Warner

Boult

 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Majestic

[Majestic]

10 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Does not matter (as the team has other batsmen too. It is not playing with 1 batsman) if he can provide a competitive advantage in Asia + Australia + WI, and even in SEN when he gets going.

It matters otherwise Ashwin would have been rated as high as Murali and Warne.

 

Like Sehwag, he too provides a competitive advantage in Asia + Australia + WI and even in SEN when he gets going ( not sure if either of two did get going ever though).

 

A Kohli, for example, who has performed everywhere will always be rated higher than both Sehwag and Ashwin for the same reason.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Majestic

[zen]

3 minutes ago, Majestic said:

@zen,

 

Special players who were unique in every regard but also performed in all conditions:-

 

Lara

Warne

Gilchrist

Wasim

de Villiers

Pietersen

 

Special players who were unique and dominant in specific conditions:-

 

Anderson

Ashwin

Kumble

Sehwag

Philander

Warner

Boult

 

 

 

It is a good list. 

 

 

 

[zen]

3 minutes ago, Majestic said:

It matters otherwise Ashwin would have been rated as high as Murali and Warne.

 

Like Sehwag, he too provides a competitive advantage in Asia + Australia + WI and even in SEN and when he gets going ( not sure if either of two did get going).

 

A Kohli, for example, who has performed everywhere will always be rated higher than both Sehwag and Ashwin for the same reason.

 

Warne and Murali are in the league of their own. 

 

Kohli does not open (He would be competing with Smith, Root, Kallis, Lara, Sangakkara, Tendulkar, Steve Waugh, and so on for the #4-5 slot) ... Sehwag's competition is relatively not that great. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by zen

[Majestic]

1 minute ago, zen said:

 

Warne and Murali are in the league of their own. 

 

Kohli does not open. Sehwag's competition is not great. 

There are many openers who are all format cricketers. Just stating that Sehwag opens doesn't mean he is allowed to fail in SEN.

 

Cook, Hayden, Smith, Langer, Kirsten, Anwar are all conditions batsman from 90s and 00s decade only.

[zen]

2 minutes ago, Majestic said:

There are many openers who are all format cricketers. Just stating that Sehwag opens doesn't mean he is allowed to fail in SEN.

 

Cook, Hayden, Smith, Langer, Kirsten, Anwar are all conditions batsman from 90s and 00s decade only.

 

They are not Sehwag, the guy who revolutionized opening in tests. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by zen

[Majestic]

14 minutes ago, zen said:

 

They are not Sehwag, the guy who revolutionized opening in tests. 

That is an over-statement. Hayden pulverized bowling attack too as opener but he played smart cricket too and was willing to grind out in tough conditions unlike Sehwag.

 

If you are looking for aggressive high strike rate batsman, then Viv, Gilchrist and Kapil( from a bowling A/R perspective) belong to that list. Sehwag and Warner were condition specific.

 

In Test cricket, performance across all conditions is an important aspect. Look at current Indian team, we are invincible at home but those overseas failures in South Africa, New Zealand or in WTC Final are the reasons why this go against our team.

 

The Sehwag style of batting in England or South Africa will give same output as Herschelle Gibbs in South Africa or Marcus Tescrothik in England.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Majestic

[zen]

Just now, Majestic said:

That is an over-statement. Hayden pulverized bowling attack too as opener but he played smart cricket too and was willing to grind out in tough conditions unlike Sehwag.

 

If you are looking for aggressive high strike rate batsman, then Viv, Gilchrist and Kapil belong to that list. Sehwag and Warner were condition specific.

 

In Test cricket, performance across all conditions is an important aspect. Look at current Indian team, we are invincible at home but those overseas failures in South Africa, New Zealand or in WTC Final are the reasons why this go against our team.

 

The Sehwag style of batting in England or South Africa will give same output as Herschelle Gibbs in South Africa or Marcus Tescrothik in England.

I watched the following openers: Gavaskar, Srikant, Shastri, Greenidge, Haynes, Boon, Marsh, Gooch, and so on. 
 

Sehwag changed opening batting in tests. A strike rate of 80+ while averaging over 50 as an opener is not a joke.