Unaccountability and shortcomings of the BCCI

[Fontaine]

Personally, I would have gone with Munaf Patel but was interested on your views on the matter.

Severing ties with MRF Pace Foundation occured because the BCCI wanted just one source of information going to players so conflicting pieces of advice are given. Furthermore, the BCCI never officially recognised MRF Pace Foundation as a partner, severing ties basically means that they won't have players under their direct control go there, I doubt there will be any hostility if a domestic player wants to go there.

You seem like a fairly intelligent guy so let me ask you something. Doesn't it strike you odd that we don't know what the BCCI has done (positively) for Indian fast bowlers? I can't name one thing and no the NCA doesn't count because as far as I know they still don't have a bowling coach. But here are some things that we do know: 1. Places where there are good facilities, focus on fitness/nuitrition/diet etc have been kept out of the loop from Indian bowlers (like the MRF, English County Cricket) and specifically we know that the county cricket ban is purely a political move. 2. Time after time there has been calls from ex-cricketers, journalists, experts and so on to make the domestic cricket more competitive starting with making the pitches more sporting, to give something to the bowlers as well and each time nothing happens. Instead, promising fast bowlers are forced to bowl slower, accurate line and length because fast bowling will get you nowhere on flat track with an even bounce. Batsmen actually prefer the ball coming onto the bat in those sitautions. 3. India probably has the largest number of cricket grounds but in contrast very few that can even pass international standards. Hell, the last time I was in India, Hyderabad didn't even have a practice pitch on the cricket grounds. 4. I've looked and searched and cannot find the list of physios, dieticians, nutritionists and fitness experts that the BCCI has hired in order to improve fielding/bowling standards. 5. And yet the BCCI is probably the richest cricketing body in the world. Where are the resources, financial and otherwise that are being passed down to the grass roots, stadiums, grounds, coaches, programs and processes? You're right on one thing though. We DON'T know. We don't know because the BCCI isn't answerable to the Ministry of Sports, they don't publish accounting/audited figures so no one knows what or exactly how rich they are and how much money they make and where they spend it. Instead what we do know and what we do see is the BCCI use it's vast resources to punish and segregate a newly developing ICL so much so that they would do it at the cost of the Indian players relative good as well as domestic cricket, purely because the ICL threatens the BCCI's over bearing monopoly. They raise they're own sanctioned league in the IPL and probably make even more money. Meanwhile, our cricketers can't even get decent accomodation on foreign tours. The fact is the BCCI isn't even a government controlled/associated body. It's a private organisation that enjoys immense priveledges that only it's board sees fit to control and levy garnered from contracting of the indian players and selling them as a product. But they still can eliminate an indian citizen from representing their country in Cricket simply because that player is affialated with the ICL, or revoke pensions from former cricketers illegally because they are associated with the ICL or refuse to acknowledge or even provide funds for the official Blind Cricket association of India even though they only need a handful of rupees. According to the BCCI, blind cricket is not real cricket yet every other cricketing body in the world recognizes, funds and encourages these local associations, except that is for the BCCI. As a patriot and a cricket fan I can hold my hand to my heart and say with unequivocal belief that the BCCI is probably one of the worst things to ever happen to the sport in India.

[The Outsider]

Fontaine, that is an excellent post - it does not deserve to be lost in a match thread. I'll make a new thread for it.

[msb1991]

You seem like a fairly intelligent guy so let me ask you something. Doesn't it strike you odd that we don't know what the BCCI has done (positively) for Indian fast bowlers? I can't name one thing and no the NCA doesn't count because as far as I know they still don't have a bowling coach.

Their fast bowling coach is B Arun.

But here are some things that we do know: 1. Places where there are good facilities, focus on fitness/nuitrition/diet etc have been kept out of the loop from Indian bowlers (like the MRF, English County Cricket) and specifically we know that the county cricket ban is purely a political move.

The BCCI hope to turn the NCA into the single place for technique, fitness, nutrition, etc but I agree that the County cricket move was diabolical.

2. Time after time there has been calls from ex-cricketers' date=' journalists, experts and so on to make the domestic cricket more competitive starting with making the pitches more sporting, to give something to the bowlers as well and each time nothing happens. Instead, promising fast bowlers are forced to bowl slower, accurate line and length because fast bowling will get you nowhere on flat track with an even bounce. Batsmen actually prefer the ball coming onto the bat in those sitautions.[/quote'] I have spoken to someone who has dabbled at FC level in India some time ago and he has said that pitches have become more sporting. Keep in mind that it is the natural nature of Indian tracks to be flat and slow and assist the spin bowlers, it takes more than a few years to combat. I do think an effort is being made to make pitches more conducive to fast bowling, but it is something very difficult to do. You must keep in mind that preparing overly grassy tracks will aid the RMF seam bowler most and so a balance must be struck if you wish to create RF bowlers.

3. India probably has the largest number of cricket grounds but in contrast very few that can even pass international standards. Hell' date=' the last time I was in India, Hyderabad didn't even have a practice pitch on the cricket grounds.[/quote'] Agreed that this is a sad state of affairs.

4. I've looked and searched and cannot find the list of physios' date=' dieticians, nutritionists and fitness experts that the BCCI has hired in order to improve fielding/bowling standards.[/quote'] I am pretty sure that there is an effort made. Just recently, I read a reply to Paras Mhambry's blog from a fitness expert from an FC side in India. It is clear that the ICL trumps the BCCI in this aspect though. I am sure the ICL's superior support staff will help act as a catalyst for more fitness, nutrition, etc, experts.

5. And yet the BCCI is probably the richest cricketing body in the world. Where are the resources' date=' financial and otherwise that are being passed down to the grass roots, stadiums, grounds, coaches, programs and processes?[/quote'] This is a commonly held misconception. The BCCI only overtook ECB in terms of revenue in 2006/7 and they have so much of a larger country to tend to. The money from the IPL should really create a massive improvement in domestic and grassroots cricket and if it doesn't in the 6-12 year period - I will be sorely disappointed and the BCCI will have a lot to answer for.

You're right on one thing though. We DON'T know. We don't know because the BCCI isn't answerable to the Ministry of Sports' date=' they don't publish accounting/audited figures so no one knows what or exactly how rich they are and how much money they make and where they spend it.[/quote'] Indeed, but although annoying, it is not that bad that the public are not being told the intricacies of coaching in domestic cricket, even though we do have a right to know.

Instead what we do know and what we do see is the BCCI use it's vast resources to punish and segregate a newly developing ICL so much so that they would do it at the cost of the Indian players relative good as well as domestic cricket' date=' purely because the ICL threatens the BCCI's over bearing monopoly. They raise they're own sanctioned league in the IPL and probably make even more money. Meanwhile, our cricketers can't even get decent accomodation on foreign tours.[/quote'] Indeed.

As a patriot and a cricket fan I can hold my hand to my heart and say with unequivocal belief that the BCCI is probably one of the worst things to ever happen to the sport in India.

We can't say that until there is a similarly sized alternative. The BCCI are not perfect, heck, they're awful, but I do think they are improving (albeit very slowly) in the areas I have mentioned above.

[satishg]

excellent thoughts Fontaine..BCCI is really nothing other than a money making organization headed by a group of political idiots who care nothing about making the Indian team the number 1 cricketing team in the world..all they care about is becoming the sole leader in economic aspect and make our Indian cricketers a marketing commodity and make more money out of them..somethings never change *sigh* otherwise with so much money around and so much resources talent wise, we should have become the dominant force in the cricket field..

[Fontaine]

Their fast bowling coach is B Arun.

Good, let's hope he's as good a coach as Dennis Lillee, but somehow I doubt that.

I have spoken to someone who has dabbled at FC level in India some time ago and he has said that pitches have become more sporting. Keep in mind that it is the natural nature of Indian tracks to be flat and slow and assist the spin bowlers, it takes more than a few years to combat. I do think an effort is being made to make pitches more conducive to fast bowling, but it is something very difficult to do.

In 1997, one of the world's leading experts in wicket science went through a thorough examination of India's international cricket venues and offered up his findings in a report. One of the key myths debunked in that report was that it takes years to improve tracks and it's very difficult. In fact he proposed that in two years time India could have similar balanced pitches found in Australia and South Africa as long as there were resources and finances poured into standard processes like soil analysis and relaying to pitches with more expensive blocks/earth that naturally provides more bounce and faster pitches. The only problem was that this type of soil needs time in between matches and costs more. That was ten years ago and now with the IPL, jam packed cricket calendar we can see why the BCCI wouldn't want to limit their stream of revenue by limiting cricket being played.

I am pretty sure that there is an effort made. Just recently, I read a reply to Paras Mhambry's blog from a fitness expert from an FC side in India. It is clear that the ICL trumps the BCCI in this aspect though. I am sure the ICL's superior support staff will help act as a catalyst for more fitness, nutrition, etc, experts.

So an organisation with no history what so ever, in a few months can create a structured cricketing environment with first class facilities and the BCCI has had how many years? I hope the ICL does act as a catalyst for improvement, but from various reports I've read from the IPL it's pretty clear what foreign cricketers think of the sub standard and piss poor facilities in use.

This is a commonly held misconception. The BCCI only overtook ECB in terms of revenue in 2006/7 and they have so much of a larger country to tend to. The money from the IPL should really create a massive improvement in domestic and grassroots cricket and if it doesn't in the 6-12 year period - I will be sorely disappointed and the BCCI will have a lot to answer for.

Yeah, sure, do you have a link for that? And I could point to a million different things the ECB has to spend money on including higher salaries and proper development and investments made to cricket from the grass roots level on up. That's the problem with having a closed book accounting system. Revenue is one thing, profit is another and neither can be detailed and scrutinized unless the BCCI opens it's books and that's not going to happen.

Indeed, but although annoying, it is not that bad that the public are not being told the intricacies of coaching in domestic cricket, even though we do have a right to know.

I would like to know. Especially the parts about how promising fast bowlers are asked to bowl 30-40 overs in a short time on flat pitches in tough conditions from captains/coaches who don't have a clue about fast bowling. And that's just not me saying it, but the Indian bowling coach, Venky Prasad, who knows first hand.

We can't say that until there is a similarly sized alternative. The BCCI are not perfect, heck, they're awful, but I do think they are improving (albeit very slowly) in the areas I have mentioned above.

I don't see which improvement you mean? The current situation is that the BCCI has even less reliance on Indian players and less reason to improve domestic cricket and conditions due to the IPL and once they've choked off the ICL, they'll be the undisputed 20/20 fast food cricket league in the subcontinent. Quiet simply put, the BCCI as an organization are driven to make money(even you can't refute that) and from a short/medium term business model it makes no financial sense for them to invest time and resources into local cricket, and local players for India when they have an entire world pool of talent to pick and choose from by show casing it in the IPL. Why the hell should they care about investing time/money/resources into finding and developing the next Kapil Dev when the can bring in Brett Lee, McGrath, a freak like Akhtar, and a dozen other circus clowns to parade in front of a local money paying public and soon a global audience?

[msb1991]

Good' date=' let's hope he's as good a coach as Dennis Lillee, but somehow I doubt that.[/quote'] He is likely not considering Lillee is likely the world's best fast bowling coach, but just informing you.

In 1997' date=' one of the world's leading experts in wicket science went through a thorough examination of India's international cricket venues and offered up his findings in a report. One of the key myths debunked in that report was that it takes years to improve tracks and it's very difficult. In fact he proposed that in two years time India could have similar balanced pitches found in Australia and South Africa as long as there were resources and finances poured into standard processes like soil analysis and relaying to pitches with more expensive blocks/earth that naturally provides more bounce and faster pitches. The only problem was that this type of soil needs time in between matches and costs more. That was ten years ago and now with the IPL, jam packed cricket calendar we can see why the BCCI wouldn't want to limit their stream of revenue by limiting cricket being played.[/quote'] Could you link me to this study, I would like to read it. Also, I disagree with any theory that states it is simple to create pitches in India like those in Australia or South Africa.

So an organisation with no history what so ever' date=' in a few months can create a structured cricketing environment with first class facilities and the BCCI has had how many years? I hope the ICL does act as a catalyst for improvement, but from various reports I've read from the IPL it's pretty clear what foreign cricketers think of the sub standard and piss poor facilities in use.[/quote'] Of course, the BCCI's effort is poor; but it must be considered that the ICL has less teams to cater for, which means it has more money to pay these overseas fitness (etc) experts and also, keep in mind that superior support staff is the way to get the majority of players - it is an incentive because without it, the ICL would have no Indian players - the BCCI do not have this incentive - selfish, yes, but also fact.

Yeah' date=' sure, do you have a link for that?[/quote'] From wikipedia: BCCI is in the process of overtaking England's ECB as the richest national cricket board, with an income of Rs 650 crore for 2006/07, compared to the ECB's income of £77 million in 2006 (Rs 665 crore at the 31 December 2006 exchange rate).

I would like to know. Especially that parts about how promising fast bowlers are asked to bowl 30-40 overs in a short time on flat pitches in tough conditions from captains/coaches who don't have a clue about fast bowling. And that's just not me saying it' date=' but the Indian bowling coach, Venky Prasad, who knows first hand.[/quote'] Captains in the domestic circuit are often clueless about fast bowling and the preservation of talent - but this is not a problem easily solved.

I don't see which improvement you mean? The current situation is that the BCCI has even less reliance on Indian players and less reason to improve domestic cricket and conditions due to the IPL and once they've choked off the ICL' date=' they'll be the undisputed 20/20 fast food cricket league in the subcontinent.[/quote'] The IPL gives BCCI more money to improve domestic facilities. By improvements, I mean the improvements in pitches as noted earlier, the fact that the BCCI have trained many Level 2 coaches as of late (cannot find the source or exact figure for the life of me) and the improvement of the NCA to a respected national academy that can be used by the BCCI to send fringe players, recovering players and the Test team.

Quiet simply put' date=' the BCCI as an organization are driven to make money(even you can't refute that) and from a short/medium term business model it makes no financial sense for them to invest time and resources into local cricket, and local players for India when they have an entire world pool of talent to pick and choose from by show casing it in the IPL.[/quote'] I don't refute that they are a money driven organisation but they do have a focus on cricket, because as proud people, they would love it to boast that they have the strongest team in world cricket and even the incompetant BCCI know that harnessing the endless grassroots pool of talent is the way to do this.

Why the hell should they care about investing time/money/resources into finding and developing the next Kapil Dev when the can bring in Brett Lee' date=' McGrath, a freak like Akhtar, and a dozen other circus clowns to parade in front of a local money paying public and soon a global audience?[/quote'] The BCCI are primarily money driven, but to think that they don't care at all for improving cricket in India is slightly naive.

[Fontaine]

He is likely not considering Lillee is likely the world's best fast bowling coach, but just informing you.

Yeah I know, that's what guys like Pathan, Sree, Patel etc had at their disposal. No longer thanks to the BCCI.

Could you link me to this study, I would like to read it. Also, I disagree with any theory that states it is simple to create pitches in India like those in Australia or South Africa.

I don't have a link to the original report in 1997 but found a link to a more recent/updated one that has parts of the original: http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2003/may/16pitch.htm

Of course, the BCCI's effort is poor; but it must be considered that the ICL has less teams to cater for, which means it has more money to pay these overseas fitness (etc) experts and also, keep in mind that superior support staff is the way to get the majority of players - it is an incentive because without it, the ICL would have no Indian players - the BCCI do not have this incentive - selfish, yes, but also fact.

Or in short what I said.

From wikipedia: BCCI is in the process of overtaking England's ECB as the richest national cricket board, with an income of Rs 650 crore for 2006/07, compared to the ECB's income of £77 million in 2006 (Rs 665 crore at the 31 December 2006 exchange rate).

Those figures might as well be funny money. It's all about the net profit baby and we don't have access to those numbers but still know that the BCCI has incredibley vast sums of money due to TV rights alone.

Captains in the domestic circuit are often clueless about fast bowling and the preservation of talent - but this is not a problem easily solved.

Uhhhh, yes it is. Like anyone will tell you, make the conditions balanced so they help bowlers as well and pretty soon any captain/coach that wants to win will start asking the right questions and looking for answers. Th

e IPL gives BCCI more money to improve domestic facilities. By improvements, I mean the improvements in pitches as noted earlier, the fact that the BCCI have trained many Level 2 coaches as of late (cannot find the source or exact figure for the life of me) and the improvement of the NCA to a respected national academy that can be used by the BCCI to send fringe players, recovering players and the Test team.

Yeah we've been hearing that promise of more funds to domestic cricket, improved facilities and pitches for quite some time now. It's funny how a lot of those promises and improvement drives get shelved every time there's a new man in charge from Dalmiya to Pawar etc etc.

I don't refute that they are a money driven organisation but they do have a focus on cricket, because as proud people, they would love it to boast that they have the strongest team in world cricket and even the incompetant BCCI know that harnessing the endless grassroots pool of talent is the way to do this. The BCCI are primarily money driven, but to think that they don't care at all for improving cricket in India is slightly naive.

That must be why all the problems that exist now like pitches, facilities, support staff were still a problem ten years ago, you konw because the BCCI cares about improving cricket in India. Instead of your opinion, I'll give you an example of real world practice in the BCCI. When Dalmiya was there he listened and understood the issues and problems around the Association of Blind Cricket in India. Since Pawar took charge he refuses to even take their phone calls or acknowledge them. You know how much it costs to run their blind cricket a year? Just a measely 20 Lakh rupees. That's less than the salary of one star player for a few weeks of cricket in the IPL, sponsored by an Alcohol Mass production company backed by some bollywood pimp completely out of touch with the common grass roots cricket and problems in domestic cricket in India. Dale Steyn got more money than that for a few weeks of cricket to in his own words "(bowl) four overs a game and it was like a paid holiday; you only had to work hard if you felt like it, which is probably why we finished second-last." Fantastic isn't it!!! In less than a few months, the BCCI has enough flex and pull to make commercial alcohol, tobacco and other private companies push out crores upon crores of rupees for a two month tournament where you're paying a handful of players but for almost a decade now they've been a backward, slow moving, goliath doing very little for the improvement of Indian cricket. Priorities right? Oh I'm sure domestic pitches/cricket will get a few crusts along the way and in ten years time we'll all be still talking about the lame ***** pitches and conditions in India. Meanwhile, I wonder how many Munaf Patels, Pathans, etc will fall by the way side. Something to look forward to I guess.

[putrevus]

you post has some points but one point regarding county cricket, Why were there no england playes in IPL , answer is ECB wants to start its IPL version, they are so peeved by the fact that twenty twenty was their vision and IPL made most money out it.If you listen to BBC there is so much jealousy there, BCCI has balls to take a stand. It has been white dominated sport for too long, I commend BCCI to stand against these so called traditionalists , it will take some time to sort that out , BCCI is against players going to teams who have ICL players, this is first time BCCI has put some restriction so you cant blame for BCCI on that issue. Do you think IPL and BCCI will have any weight if Indian team's performance goes down , I dont think so , the fact is IPL has opened flood gates to domestic players who otherwise wouldnt get any limelight, it will encourage youth to the game of cricket knowing fully well they can show case their talent to public via IPL. Gony and ohja do you think would have been in indian team if not for IPL, so give it some time , there will be more players like them coming up. The very fact that BCCI and IPL can make more money only if Indian team does well will alone is incentive for them to spread the money to grassroots. The very fact that Indian players are fitter than ever before tell you that they are being trained properly and that training to reach grassroots is not that easy in India, Why have we not produced another kapil dev , Australia do you think will produce another shane warne so it is not that easy as you think you need that talent . I think BCCI is doing just fine by Indian Standards, What Indian cricket needs is strong players union which can fight for players rights then you will have more accountability from BCCI

[msb1991]

Yeah I know' date=' that's what guys like Pathan, Sree, Patel etc had at their disposal. No longer thanks to the BCCI.[/quote'] I don't think they'll no longer have it at their disposal, but rather that players in the international scene won't be able to return there and I believe that it is good that the BCCI wish to have only one source of information for fast bowlers during their career. This is likely a good thing as conflicting pieces of information can be a dangerous thing.

I don't have a link to the original report in 1997 but found a link to a more recent/updated one that has parts of the original: http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2003/may/16pitch.htm

Will read that when I get some time, thanks for the link.

Those figures might as well be funny money. It's all about the net profit baby and we don't have access to those numbers but still know that the BCCI has incredibley vast sums of money due to TV rights alone.

I'm no expert on business, but doesn't income figures get increased by TV rights too?

Uhhhh' date=' yes it is. Like anyone will tell you, make the conditions balanced so they help bowlers as well and pretty soon any captain/coach that wants to win will start asking the right questions and looking for answers.[/quote'] It'll be hard to widely educate captains to the needs of fast bowlers - the pitches may become more balanced to spin and pace, but they'll always be flat imo and pace bowlers'll keep getting over bowled unless the BCCI make a currently untried effort to look to actually educate domestic cricketers to the knowhow of cricket. I'd love a scheme like this to be incorperated.

Yeah we've been hearing that promise of more funds to domestic cricket' date=' improved facilities and pitches for quite some time now.[/quote'] But now the BCCI finally has enough money to do it and have an effect that will be tangible. This is 'make or break' for them in terms of the use of funds.

That must be why all the problems that exist now like pitches' date=' facilities, support staff were still a problem ten years ago, you konw because the BCCI cares about improving cricket in India.[/quote'] They are slow, lazy and incompetant, but India could not have gotten where they are without caring one iota about cricket.

When Dalmiya was there he listened and understood the issues and problems around the Association of Blind Cricket in India. Since Pawar took charge he refuses to even take their phone calls or acknowledge them

It is disgraceful, yes.

Dale Steyn got more money than that for a few weeks of cricket to in his own words "(bowl) four overs a game and it was like a paid holiday; you only had to work hard if you felt like it' date=' which is probably why we finished second-last."[/quote'] He has retracted these comments and it must be understood that the BCCI is all about profit but playing good cricket will increase profit. If India are world beaters, the crowds will be larger and the ticket sales will be greater.

Priorities right? Oh I'm sure domestic pitches/cricket will get a few crusts along the way and in ten years time we'll all be still talking about the lame ***** pitches and conditions in India. Meanwhile' date=' I wonder how many Munaf Patels, Pathans, etc will fall by the way side.[/quote'] If there is no hope, then why discuss it at all - I am just trying to calm you down and rationalise you a bit. You are right in your criticism of the BCCI, but you are going overboard a tad.

[Fontaine]

you post has some points but one point regarding county cricket, Why were there no england playes in IPL , answer is ECB wants to start its IPL version, they are so peeved by the fact that twenty twenty was their vision and IPL made most money out it.If you listen to BBC there is so much jealousy there, BCCI has balls to take a stand. It has been white dominated sport for too long, I commend BCCI to stand against these so called traditionalists , it will take some time to sort that out , BCCI is against players going to teams who have ICL players, this is first time BCCI has put some restriction so you cant blame for BCCI on that issue. Do you think IPL and BCCI will have any weight if Indian team's performance goes down , I dont think so , the fact is IPL has opened flood gates to domestic players who otherwise wouldnt get any limelight, it will encourage youth to the game of cricket knowing fully well they can show case their talent to public via IPL. Gony and ohja do you think would have been in indian team if not for IPL, so give it some time , there will be more players like them coming up. The very fact that BCCI and IPL can make more money only if Indian team does well will alone is incentive for them to spread the money to grassroots. The very fact that Indian players are fitter than ever before tell you that they are being trained properly and that training to reach grassroots is not that easy in India, Why have we not produced another kapil dev , Australia do you think will produce another shane warne so it is not that easy as you think you need that talent . I think BCCI is doing just fine by Indian Standards, What Indian cricket needs is strong players union which can fight for players rights then you will have more accountability from BCCI

You believe what you want to man. I'll learn my lesson through recent history.

[Fontaine]

If there is no hope' date=' then why discuss it at all - I am just trying to calm you down and rationalise you a bit. You are right in your criticism of the BCCI, but you are going overboard a tad.[/quote'] I'm good. However I don't share your optimism on certain aspects of improvements that the BCCI will carry out. We'll find out, just give it another five years!