punjabi_khota Posted July 30, 2008 Posted July 30, 2008 Or so you think. I don't know about you sir, but to me, life of my near and dear ones is more important than preserving the pseudo-secularist image of india.
Ram Posted July 30, 2008 Posted July 30, 2008 I don't know about you sir' date=' but to me, life of my near and dear ones is more important than preserving the pseudo-secularist image of india.[/quote'] What is the relation between what I wrote and 'preserving the pseudo-secularist image of India' ?
punjabi_khota Posted July 30, 2008 Posted July 30, 2008 What is the relation between what I wrote and 'preserving the pseudo-secularist image of India' ? Thats why I said I don't know about you. What I do believe is that BJP will do a better job w.r.t terrorism, but the p-secs don't want it, since it will go about it in way which may not do please them, and will probably not make India the beacon of p-secularism in the eyes of the world. If you don't agree, then ofcourse you will feel helpless, since it means Congress comes back and all this crap we have been seeing for last few years, continues.
Ram Posted July 30, 2008 Posted July 30, 2008 Thats why I said I don't know about you. What I do believe is that BJP will do a better job w.r.t terrorism, but the p-secs don't want it, since it will go about it in way which may not do please them, and will probably not make India the beacon of p-secularism in the eyes of the world. If you don't agree, then ofcourse you will feel helpless, since it means Congress comes back and all this crap we have been seeing for last few years, continues. I wish I could respond to this post. But If I do, I know how this thread will end up and I dont want to one of the violators of forum policy.
punjabi_khota Posted July 30, 2008 Posted July 30, 2008 I wish I could respond to this post. But If I do' date=' I know how this thread will end up and I dont want to one of the violators of forum policy.[/quote'] Its okay dude, I have already read it all on the other threads. A few facts in another thread were presented after you raised some doubts. Ofcourse, they are not conclusive, but atleast lend some support.
CC1981 Posted July 30, 2008 Posted July 30, 2008 I am not sure TADA will actually do India more good than harm. Just stop and think about it for a minute. We ALL know that our police & government forces are highly corrupt and run on babugiri. If laws that basically strip suspects of human rights is in effect, is it not, completely open for our politicians to misuse it ? Trumped up cases and getting framed are dime a dozen in India. Yes, no questions, it will reduce terrorism. But my question is, are we underestimating the price our society will pay due to the misuse of this law that we all know WILL happen ? TADA seems a bit like 'chopping your nose to spite your face' syndrome. What we need, is pure and simple, more grunt work. Ultimately, prevention requires foreknowledge and that requires intelligence. We don't need any of these gung-ho 'deshbhakth citizen kanes' who'll keep an eye out in their community for 'suspicious activity'. Thats a recipe for a social disaster for a nation that is already wracked by social disorder. What we need, is simply, more grunt work. More spies reporting to CBI, army intelligence, police intelligence, RAW etc. kinda stuff. Hell, we can drop 10-15 billions on tincan planes to showpony against China or Pakistan ( most of the tincans that'll probably spend their time racking up show hours and rusting, not combat), we can increase our intelligence awareness massively by dropping that kind of money. Do the math for eg : 15 billion US $- translates to close to 600 billion rupees. Say over an average 'career-span' of 15 years per mole and a decently competetive salary per year ( i am pulling #s outta the hat here - what is above average income in India these days ? 8000 rupees/mo = 1 lakh per yr ?), we get 4 LAKH more moles- eyes and ears inside/outside the country, picking up info on terrorism and security threats. I think our govt. should maybe get a reality check and realize which is more important : internal security or show-pony around with nice shiny high-tech toys that'll not get used anytime soon. Not to underestimate the need of those shiny toys (panda always needs deterrence) but our internal security is FAR more important. And if anyone thinks that 200 new tincans are more urgently needed than 4-5 LAKH new moles (with factored in lifespan of 15 years!), i think they either know a lot more than i do or have their heads up their hineys. So instead of TADA-wada, lets just get more spies than these terrorists can deal with. People, embedded in society, simply to pass on info to the central intelligence. Ofcourse, our government will not do this : this obvious solution to massive reduction in terror : all kinds of terror, will be overlooked, because ultimately, more eyes and ears inside & outside the country means harder times for corruption. Which translates to less opportunity for these chandaals to take dibs on the nation's pot. That is the sad reality of India.
Lurker Posted July 31, 2008 Posted July 31, 2008 It is heartning to see people die like this. I know, this stupid Congress govt will not do enough to stop this. So what can citizens of india do? How can they assist. Are there any easy tips that can be given to indian people so that they can always be alert. What do they need to know for identifying suspicious activities. Are these too difficult to know? Heartening???? abbe daaru maar ke post kiya tha kya Dial Babu?
THX_1138 Posted July 31, 2008 Posted July 31, 2008 My mother survived a bomb blast in lajpat nagar, new delhi by a few second in 1998; my father survived multiple bomb blasts in the 80s when he worked for india's first semi conductor company, and i was once arrested in amsterdam by an overzealous cop who thought i was a nut. in all, there is nothing one can do to prevent such attacks from an enemy that is deluded enough to dissolve the boundaries between civilians and combatants. as for suggestions about reinforcement of harsher punishment and laws such as POTA and TADA, they only assist in apprehension of the perpetrators after the crime, hardly any attack can be reasoned to have been prevented by the use of such laws. in the end, we either need to appease the population that is indulging in this mass, religion induced hysteria that leads them to commit such atrocities, or learn to live with such crimes. nonetheless, i think better surveillance might increase the number of convictions...
THX_1138 Posted July 31, 2008 Posted July 31, 2008 I am not sure TADA will actually do India more good than harm. Just stop and think about it for a minute. We ALL know that our police & government forces are highly corrupt and run on babugiri. If laws that basically strip suspects of human rights is in effect, is it not, completely open for our politicians to misuse it ? Trumped up cases and getting framed are dime a dozen in India. Yes, no questions, it will reduce terrorism. But my question is, are we underestimating the price our society will pay due to the misuse of this law that we all know WILL happen ? TADA seems a bit like 'chopping your nose to spite your face' syndrome. What we need, is pure and simple, more grunt work. Ultimately, prevention requires foreknowledge and that requires intelligence. We don't need any of these gung-ho 'deshbhakth citizen kanes' who'll keep an eye out in their community for 'suspicious activity'. Thats a recipe for a social disaster for a nation that is already wracked by social disorder. What we need, is simply, more grunt work. More spies reporting to CBI, army intelligence, police intelligence, RAW etc. kinda stuff. Hell, we can drop 10-15 billions on tincan planes to showpony against China or Pakistan ( most of the tincans that'll probably spend their time racking up show hours and rusting, not combat), we can increase our intelligence awareness massively by dropping that kind of money. Do the math for eg : 15 billion US $- translates to close to 600 billion rupees. Say over an average 'career-span' of 15 years per mole and a decently competetive salary per year ( i am pulling #s outta the hat here - what is above average income in India these days ? 8000 rupees/mo = 1 lakh per yr ?), we get 4 LAKH more moles- eyes and ears inside/outside the country, picking up info on terrorism and security threats. I think our govt. should maybe get a reality check and realize which is more important : internal security or show-pony around with nice shiny high-tech toys that'll not get used anytime soon. Not to underestimate the need of those shiny toys (panda always needs deterrence) but our internal security is FAR more important. And if anyone thinks that 200 new tincans are more urgently needed than 4-5 LAKH new moles (with factored in lifespan of 15 years!), i think they either know a lot more than i do or have their heads up their hineys. So instead of TADA-wada, lets just get more spies than these terrorists can deal with. People, embedded in society, simply to pass on info to the central intelligence. Ofcourse, our government will not do this : this obvious solution to massive reduction in terror : all kinds of terror, will be overlooked, because ultimately, more eyes and ears inside & outside the country means harder times for corruption. Which translates to less opportunity for these chandaals to take dibs on the nation's pot. That is the sad reality of India. no, they are not. they merely are willing to turn a blind eye to minor infringements of the law in exchange for bribes that help sustain them in this inflation ridden economy. pay our law enforcement better, and corruptions declines. this was demonstrated with absolute brilliance by the East India Company. when they began to pay their soldiers and commissioned officers better, allegations of corruption declines quite significantly.
THX_1138 Posted July 31, 2008 Posted July 31, 2008 I wish I could respond to this post. But If I do' date=' I know how this thread will end up and I dont want to one of the violators of forum policy.[/quote'] good on you for your restrain, though the statement really does not deserve a response. you cant reason with him.
THX_1138 Posted July 31, 2008 Posted July 31, 2008 I am not sure TADA will actually do India more good than harm. Just stop and think about it for a minute. We ALL know that our police & government forces are highly corrupt and run on babugiri. If laws that basically strip suspects of human rights is in effect, is it not, completely open for our politicians to misuse it ? Trumped up cases and getting framed are dime a dozen in India. Yes, no questions, it will reduce terrorism. But my question is, are we underestimating the price our society will pay due to the misuse of this law that we all know WILL happen ? TADA seems a bit like 'chopping your nose to spite your face' syndrome. What we need, is pure and simple, more grunt work. Ultimately, prevention requires foreknowledge and that requires intelligence. We don't need any of these gung-ho 'deshbhakth citizen kanes' who'll keep an eye out in their community for 'suspicious activity'. Thats a recipe for a social disaster for a nation that is already wracked by social disorder. What we need, is simply, more grunt work. More spies reporting to CBI, army intelligence, police intelligence, RAW etc. kinda stuff. Hell, we can drop 10-15 billions on tincan planes to showpony against China or Pakistan ( most of the tincans that'll probably spend their time racking up show hours and rusting, not combat), we can increase our intelligence awareness massively by dropping that kind of money. Do the math for eg : 15 billion US $- translates to close to 600 billion rupees. Say over an average 'career-span' of 15 years per mole and a decently competetive salary per year ( i am pulling #s outta the hat here - what is above average income in India these days ? 8000 rupees/mo = 1 lakh per yr ?), we get 4 LAKH more moles- eyes and ears inside/outside the country, picking up info on terrorism and security threats. I think our govt. should maybe get a reality check and realize which is more important : internal security or show-pony around with nice shiny high-tech toys that'll not get used anytime soon. Not to underestimate the need of those shiny toys (panda always needs deterrence) but our internal security is FAR more important. And if anyone thinks that 200 new tincans are more urgently needed than 4-5 LAKH new moles (with factored in lifespan of 15 years!), i think they either know a lot more than i do or have their heads up their hineys. So instead of TADA-wada, lets just get more spies than these terrorists can deal with. People, embedded in society, simply to pass on info to the central intelligence. Ofcourse, our government will not do this : this obvious solution to massive reduction in terror : all kinds of terror, will be overlooked, because ultimately, more eyes and ears inside & outside the country means harder times for corruption. Which translates to less opportunity for these chandaals to take dibs on the nation's pot. That is the sad reality of India. the objective of a defense budget is above all... prevention. a strong, robust and well trained army is one of the strongest deterrents against war. as for those tincans... well they are not "tincans" and outside the FA-22 Raptor, they are arguably the finest birds in the sky. now if people stopped mooching on their taxes... and furthermore, local law enforcement budgets are not determined by the center. and yeah, intelligence officers are not easy to come by. only the finest IPS recruits make it to the RAW and IB and few amongst them have the mettle to make undercover agents.
CC1981 Posted July 31, 2008 Posted July 31, 2008 only the finest IPS recruits make it to the RAW and IB and few amongst them have the mettle to make undercover agents. Err..i am not talking only about high level infiltrations of some terror cell or what Mushie had for dinner last night. The bulk of intelligence comes from simple, average grunts- people like you and me, who just pass off any suspicious chatter to the intelligence agencies. That essentially is the blueprint of communist regimes of the yesteryears...countries like yogoslavia, poland, east germany etc. had very little 'army' might but still managed to preserve absolute security in their lands due to a *****load of embedded moles in society. It doesnt have to be high-falutan James Bond stuff, its simply like having your average panwallah passing off info about who is whining about what in front of his shop...yes, 90% will be BS stuff but that 10% is what counts. Lastly, i realize the reasoning for having those show-pony tincans as deterrence. But my point is, our internal security is of far bigger importance than passive deterrence of the Panda. Lets face it: if full scale war broke out between China and India tomorrow, India will get thumped. Our Su-30s will get owned by the massive superiority of numbers of chinese fighters ( their top of the line stuff is worse than Su-30s, but i hope you realise that even in front of the outdated Harrier, the MKI is toast if it has to take on 4:1 odds). I am not saying deterrence isnt necessary, but this isnt US-USSR cold war level of deterrence, where stepping off the pedal for a moment might mean war. We can keep beefing up our defence, but point is, we need to invest massively more in paying our enforcement agents well (which is a very good point you bring up) as well as getting a huge boost in intelligence manpower. History has shown us one thing- India's bane has always been internal dissolution and EACH AND EVERY TIME when India was internally strong, it was impregnable to outside pressures. We need to focus more on internal security than external security as of now- once the former is adequately satisfied, the latter can be addressed as much as we like.
kumble_rocks Posted July 31, 2008 Posted July 31, 2008 I am not sure TADA will actually do India more good than harm. Just stop and think about it for a minute. We ALL know that our police & government forces are highly corrupt and run on babugiri. If laws that basically strip suspects of human rights is in effect, is it not, completely open for our politicians to misuse it ? Trumped up cases and getting framed are dime a dozen in India. Yes, no questions, it will reduce terrorism. But my question is, are we underestimating the price our society will pay due to the misuse of this law that we all know WILL happen ? TADA seems a bit like 'chopping your nose to spite your face' syndrome. . Good Post ! You are spot on ! Even I was for TADA , POTA , Patriot act etc before but now I realize that it will end up being a tool ready to be misused and abused.
CC1981 Posted July 31, 2008 Posted July 31, 2008 no, they are not. they merely are willing to turn a blind eye to minor infringements of the law in exchange for bribes that help sustain them in this inflation ridden economy Dude, seriously. i don't think you are in touch with India if you think baburigi isnt the fundamental pillar of our governments. We still have pucca criminals walking around as MPs and lets not even get into the sub-tier section of MLAs. Gangsters, looters, frauds and even people openly guilty of serious assault are dime a dozen as MLAs. Go even lower and the whole 'city' level becomes one big gong-show. I don't think you are realizing what big threat TADA type laws represent to OUR society, where MLAs or criminals with great power can make a LOT of people disappear with no questions asked. Police complicity etc.doesnt even have to be that serious, just think about it for a minute.
punjabi_khota Posted July 31, 2008 Posted July 31, 2008 Good Post ! You are spot on ! Even I was for TADA ' date=' POTA , Patriot act etc before but now I realize that it will end up being a tool ready to be misused and abused.[/quote'] Similar methods were used in Punjab insurgency and the results are for everyone to see. Infact, it is the only place that we actually managed to get rid of militancy/terrorism in. The method worked. Was it abused ? Yes. Did it work ? YES. Similar is the case in Mumbai. It took desperate measures by Mumbai crime branch to push out the Bhais on 90s. You can all whine and talk about marginalization and such, and the ****ers will keep bombing our asses. So long.
punjabi_khota Posted July 31, 2008 Posted July 31, 2008 Dude, seriously. i don't think you are in touch with India if you think baburigi isnt the fundamental pillar of our governments. We still have pucca criminals walking around as MPs and lets not even get into the sub-tier section of MLAs. Gangsters, looters, frauds and even people openly guilty of serious assault are dime a dozen as MLAs. Go even lower and the whole 'city' level becomes one big gong-show. I don't think you are realizing what big threat TADA type laws represent to OUR society, where MLAs or criminals with great power can make a LOT of people disappear with no questions asked. Police complicity etc.doesnt even have to be that serious, just think about it for a minute. what makes you think 8000 pm mole will not be corrupt ? Millions of moles doesn't make any sense. Moles have to few and far in between to be discreet. Otherwise separating the crap from actual information will be an impossible task in itself.
kumble_rocks Posted July 31, 2008 Posted July 31, 2008 Similar methods were used in Punjab insurgency and the results are for everyone to see. Infact, it is the only place that we actually managed to get rid of militancy/terrorism in. The method worked. Was it abused ? Yes. Did it work ? YES. Similar is the case in Mumbai. It took desperate measures by Mumbai crime branch to push out the Bhais on 90s. You can all whine and talk about marginalization and such, and the ****ers will keep bombing our asses. So long. Dude, foolish bravado is all fine and dandy , we need to have checks and balances .. How do you ensure that POTA /TADA is not abused . Watch the hindi movie "KHAKEE" (Amitabh was brilliant btw ) and you will get the drift ...
Willow_on_fire Posted July 31, 2008 Posted July 31, 2008 Dude' date=' foolish bravado is all fine and dandy , we need to have checks and balances ..[b'] How do you ensure that POTA /TADA is not abused . Watch the hindi movie "KHAKEE" (Amitabh was brilliant btw ) and you will get the drift ... KPS gill got rid of terrorism in Punjab by wiping out even innocent youth alongside...actual terrorists were not too many there were few but very destructive...extortion by police was so much...that for every 1 terrorist killed...the corrupt Punjab cops under KPS killed 5 innocent youth.
punjabi_khota Posted August 1, 2008 Posted August 1, 2008 Dude' date=' foolish bravado is all fine and dandy , we need to have checks and balances .. How do you ensure that POTA /TADA is not abused . Watch the hindi movie "KHAKEE" (Amitabh was brilliant btw ) and you will get the drift ...[/quote'] Don't go by the movies sir, since that weakens your case. There have been numerous movies (Ab tak chappan for example) that show that only when the cops are given higher than normal powers, does the gunda gardi/bhai-giri comes under control. You cannot eliminate corruption, but you can eliminate terrorism. Choose the lesser evil.
Willow_on_fire Posted August 1, 2008 Posted August 1, 2008 Don't go by the movies sir' date= since that weakens your case. There have been numerous movies (Ab tak chappan for example) that show that only when the cops are given higher than normal powers, does the gunda gardi/bhai-giri comes under control. You cannot eliminate corruption, but you can eliminate terrorism. Choose the lesser evil. :hysterical:
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