England & India- Worrying Parallels

[Dhondy]

Consider this, gentlemen. Two underperforming captains. One defaults to selecting a batsman who hasn't been able to buy a run in any form of game in the past year because dropping him would show up his own batting inadequacies. Michael Vaughan and Paul Collingwood in an old boys' pact. At the other side of the world, an ageing spinner on his last legs steadfastly abides by his spin chum only because his own bowling figures are even worse than his underachieving buddy's. To sweeten the guvnor club, he throws in an old mate from his state into the deal. So what if Rahul Dravid is averaging 32.57 over fully twenty Tests dating back two years- he is untouchable. Two maverick batsmen carry their sides more often than not. Sehwag & Pietersen are remarkably similar in their attacking stance, without a fearful bone in their body, remarkably similar averages, with the Indian scoring even faster than the gifted (naturalised) Pom. Melbourne, Bangalore, Adelaide, Galle...when Sehwag achieves, the rest of the batsmen admire...and press the snooze button. It's pretty much the same with Pietersen. The similarities don't end there. Knuckleheaded selectors dropped India's best batsman for fully ten Tests despite the mercurial natural history of his game, while persisting with Harbhajan & Dravid with their myriad failures. The English selectors went one better, refusing to consider Simon Jones, easily their best bowler, averaging 13.5 in domestic cricket and back to rude health, while preferring an untried, untested rookie over him, simply because the latter grew up in Australia. Proof if ever it was needed that the Poms have more faith on imported players than homegrown ones. Who said the Brits didn't teach us a thing or two?

[Ram]

I am not entirely sure England and India's respective predicaments are of the same nature. In England's case, they had a choice to make and they made a wrong one, playing Pattinson in the last test and Collingwood in this one. Ours though isnt exactly the same type of problem. Its not like we are spoilt for riches in the spin department or the middle-order batting. Our selectorial decisions were more or less forced upon us.

[King]

I think you are a bit too harsh on Dravid. Remember many said the same about Tendulkar and Tendulkar has proved everyone wrong. This may well be the last series for the likes of Rahul and Ganguly. The series isn't still over yet and you may be saying few things far too soon. Remember your quotes during the SA v Eng first test? :-D Anil Kumble hasn't looked too flashy but he could prove us all wrong in this very test match. I think England is very over rated but India isn't as bad as England. I hope you are proved wrong on all accounts and am sure you will enjoy that too. BTW England is playing at home while India are playing away from home.

[Fontaine]

Interesting comparisons. I can certainly understanding giving players like Kumble/Dravid the benefit of the doubt because they are genuinely gifted, richly talented players who have a great pedigree. Unlike Harbhajan, or Collingwood who were NEVER anything special to begin with, you won't lose much if you drop them. Whereas you have to think twice about Dravid and Kumble because of the reasons I already stated. But definitely, if their poor form continues then something has to change.

[Bumper]

Dhondy, giving up on Dravid already ? It has happened many many times before, innit ? Many (including us) have written obituaries of Sachin, Ganguly, Veeru, Laxman and even Kumble before, only to see these guys turn around after a prolonged lull & showcase their class. I dont expect Dravid to hit his peaks ever, but even if can average 40 for the rest of his career, he will still be a much better option than most budding cricketers. I dont see any budding cricketer doing well against Murali or Mendis or in the upcoming series against Australia. We gotta give Dravid time till the BG trophy. I'd kick Bhajji, as far as I can, out of this team. What an absolute dodo and a waste of space. Pretty much everyone else plays.

[Chorazin Reto]

Dravid and Bahjji should go, an eye should be placed upon Ganguly, if he doesnt perform once this whole Test series i would replace him against Aust.

[coffee_rules]

Blasphemy! Bhajji and Dravid in the same sentenence to be subjected to similar fate. Sacrilegious.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Dhondy]

In fact, I was wrong. After watching Freddie, I can say with some certainty that the Indian side has nobody that plays with half the passion that the man does. And let's make no mistake, Freddie can singlehandedly change the course of this match. Under his stewardship, England snatched a draw in India, and here he is again, two Tests into his comeback, lifting his lethargic side with the bat and ball. Incredible talisman. Indians are skilled players, but lack determination and passion, which separate the greats from the very good. You see one or two good performances from our bowlers, and we praise them to high heaven. The next series, they revert to rubbish. I mean, just look at the last Test match. We need the Flintoffs, the Warnes, the McGraths. Sadly, they are not forthcoming.

[King]

Dhondy, Zaheer, RP or even Ishant Sharma is way better than Freedi in the bowling department. Get over your obsession with Pom players already :winky: You quote one or two good performance of Freedi in about few years and over hype him. What is with livng in England, does it make you guys half blind? Must be the water :D

[MundaPakistani]

Dhondy' date=' [b']Zaheer, RP or even Ishant Sharma is way better than Freedi in the bowling department. Get over your obsession with Pom players already :winky: You quote one or two good performance of Freedi in about few years and over hype him. What is with livng in England, does it make you guys half blind? Must be the water :D

Who? Flintoff? No Indian fast bowler is even close to Flintoff.

[Dhondy]

Ravi, I am no Pom. Did you watch the post rain session today? Just an hour's play. Get some footage from somewhere. You'll know what I mean. Granted, he is more injured than fit for England, but when he's in the side, he lifts his teammates like no other international player I've seen. Amazing marriage of sheer back breaking effort with passion.

[kablooee87]

Dhondy' date=' Zaheer,[b'] RP or even Ishant Sharma is way better than Freedi in the bowling department. Get over your obsession with Pom players already :winky: You quote one or two good performance of Freedi in about few years and over hype him. What is with livng in England, does it make you guys half blind? Must be the water :D

For goodness' sake, no.

[Dhondy]

And BTW, I rate Ishant ahead of Zaheer and certainly far ahead of RP Singh. If he stays fit and hungry, both big ifs, mind you, given the IPL circus, he's the one Indian bowler who can perhaps grasp the mantle of greatness.

[Predator_05]

And BTW' date=' I rate Ishant ahead of Zaheer and certainly far ahead of RP Singh. If he stays fit and hungry, both big ifs, mind you, given the IPL circus, he's the one Indian bowler who can perhaps grasp the mantle of greatness.[/quote'] What do you think of Sreesanth now ?

[King]

Ravi, I am no Pom. Did you watch the post rain session today? Just an hour's play. Get some footage from somewhere. You'll know what I mean. Granted, he is more injured than fit for England, but when he's in the side, he lifts his teammates like no other international player I've seen. Amazing marriage of sheer back breaking effort with passion.

Just one good session doesn't make him that great. I've seen him have better days but that doesn't mean he has been consistent. All you guys singing praises of Freddi please come up with the number of years of cricket he has played, the amount of consistency he has displayed and his records outside England. BTW check out his records for every season. Freddi has 2 5fers in test cricket and 1 5 fer in ODIs since his debut and you guys are hailing him as great by the looks of it. Freddi has been around for 10 years and his achievement is good but not great as you guys claim. Comparing him with RP is a bit over the top but RP has only played couple of years of cricket and how well did he bowl in England in conditions that suit faster bowlers? Another decent pom cricketer over hyped as the best since sliced bread. Two test matches ago Anderson was great and now Freddi. This is his away averages : year 1999 3 133 42 26.60 0 5 2/31 34.80 0 2 0 view innings year 2000 1 22 22 22.00 0 0 - - 0 0 0 view innings year 2001 3 26 18 5.20 0 6 4/50 31.50 0 1 0 view innings year 2002 3 243 137 40.50 1 9 3/49 34.77 0 2 0 view innings year 2003 3 143 77 23.83 0 9 3/42 24.55 0 0 0 view innings year 2004 6 295 102* 42.14 1 19 5/58 27.36 1 9 0 view innings year 2005 7 307 77 23.61 0 35 4/44 24.77 0 3 0 view innings year 2006 7 422 70 35.16 0 21 4/96 36.23 0 3 0 view innings year 2007 1 96 89 48.00 0 1 1/56 56.00 0 0 0 view innings This is his home averages : year 1998 2 17 17 5.66 0 1 1/52 112.00 0 1 0 view innings year 2000 3 61 16 12.20 0 1 1/48 83.00 0 1 0 view innings year 2002 6 141 59 17.62 0 11 2/22 60.81 0 7 0 view innings year 2003 5 423 142 52.87 1 10 2/55 59.20 0 0 0 view innings year 2004 7 603 167 60.30 1 24 3/25 24.50 0 7 0 view innings year 2005 7 402 102 40.20 1 33 5/78 24.03 1 4 0 view innings year 2006 3 47 33* 15.66 0 12 3/52 29.50 0 4 0 view innings year 2008 2 91 38 45.50 0 5 4/68 29.00 0 2 0 view innings This is his combined record : year 1998 2 17 17 5.66 0 1 1/52 112.00 0 1 0 view innings year 1999 3 133 42 26.60 0 5 2/31 34.80 0 2 0 view innings year 2000 4 83 22 13.83 0 1 1/48 99.00 0 1 0 view innings year 2001 3 26 18 5.20 0 6 4/50 31.50 0 1 0 view innings year 2002 9 384 137 27.42 1 20 3/49 49.10 0 9 0 view innings year 2003 8 566 142 40.42 1 19 3/42 42.78 0 0 0 view innings year 2004 13 898 167 52.82 2 43 5/58 25.76 1 16 0 view innings year 2005 14 709 102 30.82 1 68 5/78 24.41 1 7 0 view innings year 2006 10 469 70 31.26 0 33 4/96 33.78 0 7 0 view innings year 2007 1 96 89 48.00 0 1 1/56 56.00 0 0 0 view innings year 2008 2 91 38 45.50 0 5 4/68 29.00 0 2 0 view innings Cheers

[observer1]

My simplistic view is that a physique like Flintoff's is not designed for fast bowling - either the back or the foot/ankle will break down soon. It is only the lithe fast men who remain uninjured through their careers. But, you are right, Doc Dhondy - FF is an inspiration to the English team, whether with his bowling or fielding ability in the slips. I dont rate his batting very much - he is a bit of a hit or miss batter.

[Predator_05]

Just one good session doesn't make him that great. I've seen him have better days but that doesn't mean he has been consistent. All you guys singing praises of Freddi please come up with the number of years of cricket he has played, the amount of consistency he has displayed and his records outside England. BTW check out his records for every season. Freddi has 2 5fers in test cricket and 1 5 fer in ODIs since his debut and you guys are hailing him as great by the looks of it. Freddi has been around for 10 years and his achievement is good but not great as you guys claim. Comparing him with RP is a bit over the top but RP has only played couple of years of cricket and how well did he bowl in England in conditions that suit faster bowlers? Another decent pom cricketer over hyped as the best since sliced bread. Two test matches ago Anderson was great and now Freddi.

Dhondy wasn't talking about his bowling today as some kind of achievement, he was just impressed by the amount of effort he put in to single-handedly haul England back into a test which was slipping away from them. You don't see too many cricketers today playing with their heart on their sleeve. Come on Ravi, you know Flintoff would WALK into the Indian team. The guy is a seriously good cricketer. Sure, he is overrated but that's just as a consequence of him being English. He is a class act. He had a tough start to his career and was a bit of a late bloomer in that sense, but in the last 4 years he has been outstanding. In fact, i DID check the numbers and i found that since the summer of '04, he has 129 wickets at 27.10 and 1847 runs at a very respectable average of 36.21. Those are great numbers for an all-rounder. And i don't agree with the "designer pitches" comment either. Flintoff had no trouble taking wickets in Pakistan when England toured in '05 and he also did very well in India.

[King]

Dhondy wasn't talking about his bowling today as some kind of achievement, he was just impressed by the amount of effort he put in to single-handedly haul England back into a test which was slipping away from them. You don't see too many cricketers today playing with their heart on their sleeve. Come on Ravi, you know Flintoff would WALK into the Indian team. The guy is a seriously good cricketer. Sure, he is overrated but that's just as a consequence of him being English. He is a class act. He had a tough start to his career and was a bit of a late bloomer in that sense, but in the last 4 years he has been outstanding. In fact, i DID check the numbers and i found that since the summer of '04, he has 129 wickets at 27.10 and 1847 runs at a very respectable average of 36.21. Those are great numbers for an all-rounder. And i don't agree with the "designer pitches" comment either. Flintoff had no trouble taking wickets in Pakistan when England toured in '05 and he also did very well in India.

I didn't quite say he's not good but I don't think he's that good to be mentioned in the same breath as Warne and McGrath. I still don't reckon he's consistent and runs through the opponent. If he did often then why is that he only has 2 5 fers in test cricket and just one 5 fer in ODI cricket. At best he does pick some important wickets when on song but not the kind that will turn the game upside down in a session. He did that yesterday and good for him but bowlers at international level are fairly capable of doing that once in a while.

[kablooee87]

I didn't quite say he's not good but I don't think he's that good to be mentioned in the same breath as Warne and McGrath. I still don't reckon he's consistent and runs through the opponent. If he did often then why is that he only has 2 5 fers in test cricket and just one 5 fer in ODI cricket. At best he does pick some important wickets when on song but not the kind that will turn the game upside down in a session. He did that yesterday and good for him but bowlers at international level are fairly capable of doing that once in a while.

But you didn't say Warne and McGrath. You said Singh and Sharma. BIG difference.