Calling All Pakistanis by NYT bestseller Thomas Friedman

[Ram]

Yeah' date=' the ban is big sham.[/quote'] Absolutely. Its been widely reported that these bans are totally worthless. The 'banned organizations' merely buy a bucket of paint, change their name and bingo, they are back in business, roaming the streets of the cities of Pakistan, seeking donations for the 'Jihad in Azad Kashmir'

[Guest dada_rocks]

Who the **** are they kidding LET leader routinely comes on talk shows through video conferencing.. I watch more pakistani channel than indian.. there is no ban whatsoever in practice...

[Holysmoke]

the analogy is flawed MP, you're right. Please replace with hypothetical hindu terrorist organization. does not change Freidman's point.

exactly MP is diverting the topic here

[Guest dada_rocks]

MP's thought process is still of denial.. I mean how these guys manage to keep themselves insulated from fact is beyndme.. have not we seen denial by army and govt about kargil.. aren;t we still saying bickering going on in pakistan whether army's move was sanctioned by PM or not.. what's the credibility of any thing they say in light of all this

[MundaPakistani]

as expected barrage of bouncers coming my way yet no one even tried to answer the question asked in this thread http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=125652

the analogy is flawed MP' date= you're right. Please replace with hypothetical hindu terrorist organization. does not change Freidman's point.

thanks...that was the initial point. Now i replace that with a hindu terrorist organization and assume that the Indian army is trying to kill them all then YES it does make a big difference. Now please take a deep breath, put your "objective" hat on and please listen to the following i genuinely think that there is a very very small chance that LeT or any other terrorist organization from PAK was involved because of the following reasons 1- The fact that the Indian Navy is one of the best in the world. 2- The fact that Karachi is 900 km away from Mumbai 3- The fact that the boat stayed in water for several hours. 4- The fact that even fishermen on either side are caught easily. 5- The fact that it is a VERY active coast line. 6- The fact that the Mumbai oil refinery(perhaps IND's biggest financial asset) is in the area 7- The fact that they have NUMEROUS radars tracking the happenings in the water. So how they allegedly got themselves all the way to shore of Mumbai is quite unbelievable. Then there are numerous other questions about weapons, transportation, communication, security at ground zero, security around the city, security around the shore etc etc etc ...and these men are allegedly smart enough to fox one of the finest navy on the planet, get all the way to the finest hotels in IND's most important city and kill innocent lives for 3 days yet dumb enough to make AND receive phone calls to Karachi and Lahore and all that other obvious evidence that police is talking and remember we are NOT taking about a entire ship full of people, we are talking about mere 10 men. After listening to all of the above if you still don't want to ponder about the whole thing then fair enough we have to agree to disagree. adios

[punjabi_khota]

as expected barrage of bouncers coming my way yet no one even tried to answer the question asked in this thread http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=125652 thanks...that was the initial point. Now i replace that with a hindu terrorist organization and assume that the Indian army is trying to kill them all then YES it does make a big difference. Now please take a deep breath, put your "objective" hat on and please listen to the following i genuinely think that there is a very very small chance that LeT or any other terrorist organization from PAK was involved because of the following reasons 1- The fact that the Indian Navy is one of the best in the world. 2- The fact that Karachi is 900 km away from Mumbai 3- The fact that the boat stayed in water for several hours. 4- The fact that even fishermen on either side are caught easily. 5- The fact that it is a VERY active coast line. 6- The fact that the Mumbai oil refinery(perhaps IND's biggest financial asset) is in the area 7- The fact that they have NUMEROUS radars tracking the happenings in the water. So how they allegedly got themselves all the way to shore of Mumbai is quite unbelievable. Then there are numerous other questions about weapons, transportation, communication, security at ground zero, security around the city, security around the shore etc etc etc ...and these men are allegedly smart enough to fox one of the finest navy on the planet, get all the way to the finest hotels in IND's most important city and kill innocent lives for 3 days yet dumb enough to make AND receive phone calls to Karachi and Lahore and all that other obvious evidence that police is talking and remember we are NOT taking about a entire ship full of people, we are talking about mere 10 men. After listening to all of the above if you still don't want to ponder about the whole thing then fair enough we have to agree to disagree. adios

One word. 9/11. kthxbye

[vroomfondel]

first, Indian Navy is not responsible for patrolling, Coast Guard is -- and the quality of the coast guard given the coastline is quite poor. your points 1-7 all deal with the implausibility of trained terrorists getting into mumbai harbor. I won't bother with a point-by-point negation yet, but please note that the US warned India twice of external attacks from the coast. on hotels in mumbai ie. it is a credible threat. and our chewtias failed to act. that kill your entire premise of implausibility no?

[Guest dada_rocks]

as expected barrage of bouncers coming my way yet no one even tried to answer the question asked in this thread http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=125652 thanks...that was the initial point. Now i replace that with a hindu terrorist organization and assume that the Indian army is trying to kill them all then YES it does make a big difference. Now please take a deep breath, put your "objective" hat on and please listen to the following i genuinely think that there is a very very small chance that LeT or any other terrorist organization from PAK was involved because of the following reasons 1- The fact that the Indian Navy is one of the best in the world. I am not so sure after this even in 2006 a news channel did mock terror penetration with some contraband material and they came to mumbai unchecked al they had to do is bribe 2000 rs at one place . I am sure had this been debate of respectice strength of indian pakistan navy even your tune wud have been different 2- The fact that Karachi is 900 km away from Mumbai I don;t know why it matters 3- The fact that the boat stayed in water for several hours. Refere to one it doesn't matter how many hours its not that difficult to pentrate that socalled secuirty cover that exissts today and a ragtag group of journalist had proven that way back in 2006 4- The fact that even fishermen on either side are caught easily. Not all of them get caught so again it hardly makes any difference.. in fact since they used comanddered boat of indian fishermen and were offical support fromo pakiostani side it becomes easy to evade the security.. I mean on pakistani side where that boat was likely to be caught they gto support on india side for all practical purpose it was indian boat 5- The fact that it is a VERY active coast line. All the more reaosn to evade security eyes.. whena border police sees a boat in otherwise unchartered waters they ask questins but when you see boat opeddlign daily in huge numbers you don;t scrutinize them all throughly.. 6- The fact that the Mumbai oil refinery(perhaps IND's biggest financial asset) is in the area Yes and once again the same channle has shown iway back in 2006 how even that poil refinery remains largely unguarded.. yes we are bunch of careless idiots when ti comes to security.. even today everyone is debating how that oil refinery is sitting duck for simialr attack as happened in mumbai.. 7- The fact that they have NUMEROUS radars tracking the happenings in the water. Radars tracking what .. Indian boats come and go all the time Ias I have mentioend before they comanddeered idnian boat.. what is radar goig to do if a bunch fo pakistani is sitting with explosives instead of fish in those boats.. I don;t know whether you know but radar doesn;t idenity pakistanis neither it identifies whether the boat has fish or explosives........ Now you know why nobody bothered with these stupid questions So how they allegedly got themselves all the way to shore of Mumbai is quite unbelievable. Then there are numerous other questions about weapons, transportation, communication, security at ground zero, security around the city, security around the shore etc etc etc ...and these men are allegedly smart enough to fox one of the finest navy on the planet, get all the way to the finest hotels in IND's most important city and kill innocent lives for 3 days yet dumb enough to make AND receive phone calls to Karachi and Lahore and all that other obvious evidence that police is talking and remember we are NOT taking about a entire ship full of people, we are talking about mere 10 men. After listening to all of the above if you still don't want to ponder about the whole thing then fair enough we have to agree to disagree. adios

[Ram]

as expected barrage of bouncers coming my way yet no one even tried to answer the question asked in this thread http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=125652 thanks...that was the initial point. Now i replace that with a hindu terrorist organization and assume that the Indian army is trying to kill them all then YES it does make a big difference. Now please take a deep breath, put your "objective" hat on and please listen to the following i genuinely think that there is a very very small chance that LeT or any other terrorist organization from PAK was involved because of the following reasons 1- The fact that the Indian Navy is one of the best in the world.

You're making one MASSIVE mistake. Yes, the Indian Navy is really powerful, but its the Coast Guard that patrols India coastal regions and her waters. You wont find a frigate or a warship intecepting strayed fisherman boats and asking them for papers, its the Coast Guard that does it. Admittedly, as with most South Asian countries, our Coast guard is poorly equipped to meet the challenges of this new century. Even so, No Navy in the world is powerful enough to deploy employ effective surveillance of each and every Merchant Vessel that plies in its waters. Dont forget, African immigrants routinely cross over from Northern Africa into Europe in the small boats and trawlers. Most of them are caught, but some of 'em slip through. And you must have heard of the repeated hijacking of ships off Northern Africa, despite it being patrolled by NATO, US and Indian American warships. Enough said.

2- The fact that Karachi is 900 km away from Mumbai

Again, So? Fishing Trawlers are equipped to go deep into the Sea waters, because of the 'catch' is better there. Its just normal practice for fisherman to go 100s of kms from their coastline. Many times, they're away for days, if not weeks, into their fishing trip. So, given the nature of the equipment ( a midsized fishing trawler), the distance is no big deal

3- The fact that the boat stayed in water for several hours.

Yes, but they masqueraded as fisherman, which is why they were let off. Its not like as though they had a placard proclaiming their terror intentions stuck to their hull. You musnt forget, this boat was stopped by the Coast Guard, who checked the papers and let them go. Obviously, all the papers were well made fakes.

4- The fact that even fishermen on either side are caught easily.

Yes, they are, but many times, fisherman manage to slip the net. If you hear 2 instances of fisherman being caught, there will 10 corresponding instances of fisherman successfully intruding into foreign waters and coming back, that is not reported on the news.

5- The fact that it is a VERY active coast line.

Irrelevant to the current discussion. Thousands of fishing trawlers ply these waters. Its almost a logistical impossibility to patrol these waters effectively.

6- The fact that the Mumbai oil refinery(perhaps IND's biggest financial asset) is in the area

Again, whats that got to do with the current discussion? Even Gujrat has a refiniery, arent there fisherman not allowed to operate out of it.

7- The fact that they have NUMEROUS radars tracking the happenings in the water.

Yes, they do, but they cant track whats INSIDE the boat, namely, some terrorist with hideous intentions and a load weapons.

So how they allegedly got themselves all the way to shore of Mumbai is quite unbelievable. Then there are numerous other questions about weapons, transportation, communication, security at ground zero, security around the city, security around the shore etc etc etc ...and these men are allegedly smart enough to fox one of the finest navy on the planet, get all the way to the finest hotels in IND's most important city and kill innocent lives for 3 days yet dumb enough to make AND receive phone calls to Karachi and Lahore and all that other obvious evidence that police is talking

No, its entirely plausible, given how poor India maritime and land security apparatus is. And the terrorists have no other option but to use satellite phones to be in touch with their bosses back in the 'base' Now that you have told me why you think this is all a hoax carried out by Indian agencies, hear me on why I think its not. 1) Assuming that this was all an elaborate hoax, the last thing that these 'Indian govt' agencies' would want is CCTV images of the terrorists, flashing all over the national news. If you set up some people to blow some hotels and kill some people, the last thing you want is have their faces, all over the national and world media. Thats an absolutel no-brainer, coz that immediately gives away the identities of these men, leaving open the possibility of someone ultimately finding out that these men arent Pakistani terrorists after all, but Hindu nationalists set up by the Indian govt. 2) You keep forgetting that there's a captured terrorist. Now, if an Indian agency set these men-up, would they then go on to 'capture' them? And worse, give FBI access to him for interrogation? Thats just a stupid thing to do. This is another body blow in this whole conspiracy theory. 3) If you to set-up some terrorists to blow some hotels and frame Pakistan, the last thing you would do is to hunt down and kill some Israeli nationals, because you can bet your bottom dollar that the Israeli agencies will get to to the bottom of this and its just a matter of time before the uncover the hoax.

[vroomfondel]

MP you can burn in hell too with those terrorists you idiot.. .. and ask them if they really got their 73 virgins or mullahs fooled them...

chill yaar...all conspiracy theories have these "burning questions" that their propagators think are "smoking guns". 9/11 waale are also like that, also there are still people who believe that US never went on the moon -- they discuss how shadows on the pictures of moon imply it was done in the studio. the best way to respond to reasonable people is to answer questions reasonably. at some point, either they concede or end the conversation.

[veer]

hahha.. i am chilled.. I just wanted to say it ..

[seedhi]

i genuinely think that there is a very very small chance that LeT or any other terrorist organization from PAK was involved because of the following reasons 1- The fact that the Indian Navy is one of the best in the world. 2- The fact that Karachi is 900 km away from Mumbai 3- The fact that the boat stayed in water for several hours. 4- The fact that even fishermen on either side are caught easily. 5- The fact that it is a VERY active coast line. 6- The fact that the Mumbai oil refinery(perhaps IND's biggest financial asset) is in the area 7- The fact that they have NUMEROUS radars tracking the happenings in the water. So how they allegedly got themselves all the way to shore of Mumbai is quite unbelievable. Then there are numerous other questions about weapons, transportation, communication, security at ground zero, security around the city, security around the shore etc etc etc

This is not the first time this has happened or has been attempted. In 1993 Bombay blasts, the RDX was also dumped onto the Raigarh port via the naval route. Ofcourse there was an intelligence failure of epic proportions this time round. The terrorists probably charted a route along the coast to avoid the navy and dealt with only the coast guard (after hijacking the porbandar fishing trawler). The coast guard DID intercept them but they seem to have been fooled by their fake ids and did not search the boat. There might also have been some inside help for these terrorists. Anyway, the point is not to convince pakistanis of the LeTs culpability, but the Americans who are increasingly turning to the Indian view of involvement of pakistani elements. It is important to note that in the US intelligence itself had warned that such a sea based attack could take place, so they have a pretty good idea about who did it. NYT has quoted Pentagon officials as saying that ex-pakistani armymen trained the terrorists.

...and these men are allegedly smart enough to fox one of the finest navy on the planet, get all the way to the finest hotels in IND's most important city and kill innocent lives for 3 days yet dumb enough to make AND receive phone calls to Karachi and Lahore and all that other obvious evidence that police is talking

That was clearly the strategy of the terrorists - not to cover up any pakistani involvement. Their motive is to provoke an India-Pak conflict which will lead pakistan to move troops from the Afghan border, thus helping the Alqaeda which probably hired LeT for this mission.

[vroomfondel]

the boat exists, with sat. radio etc. and winter jackets/toothbrushes, and a fisherman bound/gagged with throat slit. the boat left from porbandar for 10-12 trips trawling around sir creek, not karachi. I would think porbandar is about halfway from karachi to mumbai, so plenty of fuel etc.

[MundaPakistani]

oh...so we will be neighbors again ? Sriram, good post You have indeed made a couple of solid points but other points still seem a bit weak. Will get back to you soon.

[Chandan]

Sriram, good post You have indeed made a couple of solid points but other points still seem a bit weak. Will get back to you soon.

Which points seem weak to you? And do you not think that LeT is a terrorist organisation?

[MundaPakistani]

Which points seem weak to you? And do you not think that LeT is a terrorist organisation?

will let Sriram know... as for the other LeT...well any one killing innocent people especially women or children be it from Mumabi, Islamabad, Orissa, Mardan,Florida, Karachi, Assam etc is a terrorist so i am not sure why you are asking that.

[MundaPakistani]

thanks shwetabh

[King Tendulkar]

Like I said days back in cricket forum. MP is displaying classic pak/muslim behaviour deny deny deny deny deny deny deny, then when dust settles start to justify jihad actions. MP just shows the sterotype is no sterotype but a reality. MP do you believe 9/11 was done by muslims? Is Islam 100% perfect or does it as a religion have any flaws?

[Guest dada_rocks]

will let Sriram know... as for the other LeT...well any one killing innocent people especially women or children be it from Mumabi, Islamabad, Orissa, Mardan,Florida, Karachi, Assam etc is a terrorist so i am not sure why you are asking that.

Then what have you done about LET leaders addressing public through media in Pakistan ..

[King Tendulkar]

Why have pak not arrested LET leaders?