Desi Cartman Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I think we are missing 3rd seamer ...spinners cant do much on day one unless they are in the league of Murali - warne - kumble Link to comment
punjabi_khota Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I think we are missing 3rd seamer ...spinners cant do much on day one unless they are in the league of Murali - warne - kumble Kumble took a total of 5 wickets in 2 tests he played at Hamilton,and a total of 11wickets in 3 tests in NZ at an average of 40. Link to comment
Desi Cartman Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Kumble took a total of 5 wickets in 2 tests he played at Hamilton' date='and a total of 11wickets in 3 tests in NZ at an average of 40.[/quote'] I dont think its correct to blame Bhajji either. Its 3rd seamers job. Spinners main role on a day 1 pitch is to support the phaast bowlers. Link to comment
Ram Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I'm sorry. What? Look at the batsman who's batting, please if you will. He is the world's #1 ODI bowler and not too far down the charts in the Test rankings. ****ing Graeme Swann has out performed Bhajji on a spinning Chennai pitch in his maiden game. And I thought Harbhajan "was the best spinner out there" and "gives India the advantage" that no one else has. Other spinners maybe less talented (whatever the hell that means) but they try to get wickets. This man is like a bowling machine at the moment. Didn't even try to loop the ball well and slow the pace properly. Firing in darts at 86kmh outside off stump and expects something to happen. Oh, Anil Kumble got a 5-fifer against Australia on a first day Melbourne pitch. Bangladesh's Shakib Al Hasan has gotten many more impressive performances than Harbhajan. Jason Krezja may have given away the 2nd highest # of runs on debut but he's got 12 wickets to show for it in one match where Harbhajan did what? Jack ****. You should've seen how well Suleiman Benn was bowling against the English recently -on dead pitches to boot. Yea right. Kumble was as effective as a snake whose fangs were cut-off in his last few series, he couldnt even buy a wicket. In the recent past, Monty has been dropped, Kaneria has been dropped, Australia does not even have a front-line spinner (yea you can talk about Krezja and his '12-fer' on his debut, but he hasnt played a test since then. West Indies dont have a decent spinner to speak of and Paul Harris hardly ever looks like picking a wicket. Its easy to be hyper-critical. In the last 2-3 years, spinners all over the world have seen their numbers get progressively worse. Bhajji isnt the only culprit. Link to comment
graphic23 Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Yea right. Kumble was as effective as a snake whose fangs were cut-off in his last few series, he couldnt even buy a wicket. In the recent past, Monty has been dropped, Kaneria has been dropped, Australia does not even have a front-line spinner (yea you can talk about Krezja and his '12-fer' on his debut, but he hasnt played a test since then. West Indies dont have a decent spinner to speak of and Paul Harris hardly ever looks like picking a wicket. Its easy to be hyper-critical. In the last 2-3 years, spinners all over the world have seen their numbers get progressively worse. Bhajji isnt the only culprit. Are you serious in your post there? Kumble was 37 years old and had played cricket for 20 years when he retired. It was his last series - thats why he retired. And 'last few' ? I thought he was terrific in Australia for a man who's always blamed for performing poorly overseas. He was injured against SA and SL/Aus in the 2nd half of the year marked his end. Harbhajan Singh has been in the team for 10 years now. In the 90s, Kumble was invaluable to India. Showed fight and grit, and most importantly, worked out batsmen as a spinner. He added so many variations to his armory. Oh, and based on your standards, after the 2001 series at home vs. Australia, Bhajji should've retired too. Because I cannot think of a single performance throughout a series that's commendable - home or away. That Anil Kumble got to 500 wickets faster than Shane Warne and Mutthaih Muralitharan should say something about his class. At the risk of stating the obvious, Harbhajan Singh, as a spinner is terribly overrated and doesn't deserve a spot in the team. Maybe as a #8 batsman who can field a bit and bowl some part time spin, perhaps. As your "main stream" spinner, he's terrible. Just because there are no alternatives doesn't mean I should praise Harbhajan. Link to comment
Ram Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Are you serious in your post there? Kumble was 37 years old and had played cricket for 20 years when he retired. It was his last series - thats why he retired. And 'last few' ? I thought he was terrific in Australia for a man who's always blamed for performing poorly overseas. He was injured against SA and SL/Aus in the 2nd half of the year marked his end. Harbhajan Singh has been in the team for 10 years now. In the 90s' date= Kumble was invaluable to India. Showed fight and grit, and most importantly, worked out batsmen as a spinner. He added so many variations to his armory. Oh' date=' and based on your standards, after the 2001 series at home vs. Australia, Bhajji should've retired too. Because I cannot think of a single performance throughout a series that's commendable - home or away. [/quote'] He has 315 wickets in 75 matches. He took 30 of those wickets against Australia in that series. So, do the math if you can. That Anil Kumble got to 500 wickets faster than Shane Warne and Mutthaih Muralitharan should say something about his class. Why do you keep referring to overall stats again and again, when I have clearly pointed out that, in the last 12-15 months, things have become awful for most leading spinners all over the world? At the risk of stating the obvious' date=' Harbhajan Singh, as a spinner is terribly overrated and doesn't deserve a spot in the team. Maybe as a #8 batsman who can field a bit and bowl some part time spin, perhaps. As your "main stream" spinner, he's terrible. Just because there are no alternatives doesn't mean I should praise Harbhajan.[/quote'] I never said you should praise Bhajji, but your criticism of him lacks context and is inaccurate. If you have criticize Bhajji, let me see you criticizing all of Kaneria, Monty, Harris, Krezja, Cameron White because of all of these spinnners and more have returned even worser figures in the last 12-15 months. Which is why, if you had read what i wrote carefully, you would have seen that I have added the caveat the, in the recent past, things have been really hard for most spinners. And Kumble wasnt 'Terrific' in Australia, he was decent. But, after that decent series, he had three poor series - Against south Africa, Lanka and Sri Lanka. So, to answer your point, even India's most prolific spinner found it tough going in the last 12 months, injury or no injury. Link to comment
graphic23 Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Which is why, if you had read what i wrote carefully, you would have seen that I have added the caveat the, in the recent past, things have been really hard for most spinners. And Kumble wasnt 'Terrific' in Australia, he was decent. But, after that decent series, he had three poor series - Against south Africa, Lanka and Sri Lanka. So, to answer your point, even India's most prolific spinner found it tough going in the last 12 months, injury or no injury. You're defeating yourself here. Anil Kumble at 27 is not the same as Anil Kumble at 37. He was clearly past his best. Harbhajan has been in the team for 10 years, is 27 years of age, and not bowling as well as someone with as much experience should bowl. If everyone was getting hit and he was containing, fine. But here, the stage was set at 60/6. NZ aren't really the greatest players of spin, and if you expect to get wickets by bowling the same ball 120 times with little or no change in pace/length/line, then you're not international quality. Edit: If I take away the 32 wickets from the Australian tour of India, his average goes up to 32.65 , from the present 31.06 - thats quite significant, given the 73 other matches he's played. His average against Australia without the 2001 tour: 36.85 GroupingAscending Span Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St v Australia 1998-2008 11 359 63 23.93 0 47 6/78 36.85 3 5 0 view innings v Bangladesh 2004-2004 2 55 47 27.50 0 4 2/19 41.25 0 1 0 view innings v England 2001-2008 11 219 54 16.84 0 41 5/51 33.97 3 2 0 view innings v New Zealand 1998-2009 8 50 20 7.14 0 17 3/33 42.29 0 2 0 view innings v Pakistan 1999-2007 9 88 38 9.77 0 25 6/152 52.04 2 7 0 view innings v South Africa 2001-2008 6 42 17 6.00 0 35 7/87 27.74 2 4 0 view innings v Sri Lanka 1999-2008 10 203 44 16.91 0 37 7/62 31.91 2 6 0 view innings v West Indies 2002-2006 8 162 38* 14.72 0 45 7/48 21.93 5 8 0 view innings v Zimbabwe 1998-2005 7 191 66 38.20 0 31 6/62 24.54 1 3 0 view innings This is your premier spinner, and the man you're defending? He has 315 wickets in 75 matches. He took 30 of those wickets against Australia in that series. So, do the math if you can. And the point still remains. An Indian spinner with an average of >31 with 285 wickets in 73 matches. Surely, if people here said Kumble's 600 wickets are attributable to his 125+ test matches, then we can say the same about Harbhajan, and perhaps, it is more true in this case. Why do you keep referring to overall stats again and again, when I have clearly pointed out that, in the last 12-15 months, things have become awful for most leading spinners all over the world? Can you please tell me what Harbhajan SIngh has done on a helpful pitch in the past 8 years? The man is unable to findout how to bowl on a slow pitch vs. a minefield after 74 matches. What does the last 12-15 months have to do with it? I never said you should praise Bhajji, but your criticism of him lacks context and is inaccurate. If you have criticize Bhajji, let me see you criticizing all of Kaneria, Monty, Harris, Krezja, Cameron White because of all of these spinnners and more have returned even worser figures in the last 12-15 months. I couldn't care less about Kaneria. The man is a buffoon. Monty Panesar is worthless right now because, like our very own premier spinner, he was bowling outside the leg stump to Sachin Tendulkar on a 5th day Chennai pitch when the team was chasing 387. You cannot get more incompetent as a spinner than that. I already mentioned that Jason Krezja outperformed Harbhajan at Nagpur. No matter the runs that he gave away. He's got 12 wickets to show for it, and I'm repeating myself here. Whether he was picked or not is not we're discussing - thats up to the Australian selectors. And why do I need to criticize all these guys if I want to do criticize Harbhajan? The SA selectors, players, or SA fans never claimed Paul Harris was the best spinner in the world. But we've got people who say that he's the best spinner at the moment - blah blah blah. And that you've brought Cameron White in a discussion about spinners completely devalues whatever you have to say. Link to comment
DomainK Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I have a feeling that Bhajji will be quite useful on day 4 and 5. Link to comment
Ram Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 You're defeating yourself here. Anil Kumble at 27 is not the same as Anil Kumble at 37. He was clearly past his best. Harbhajan has been in the team for 10 years' date=' is 27 years of age, and not bowling as well as someone with as much experience should bowl. If everyone was getting hit and he was containing, fine. But here, the stage was set at 60/6. NZ aren't really the greatest players of spin, and if you expect to get wickets by bowling the same ball 120 times with little or no change in pace/length/line, then you're not international quality. [/quote'] Sigh, this is tiring. The point isnt about how old Anil Kumble was or how old Bhajji is. The point is about the general trend in international cricket in the last couple of seasons, when every spinner most test nations have seen their career stats go downhill. And you're yet to see that point and keep quoting irrelevant overall career and age numbers that frankly, have got nothing to do with the discussion. How does it matter how old Anil Kumble was anyway? If he was tool old, he shouldnt have played in the first place. The fact of the matter is, he played and in his last three series, his figures were horrendous. And the point still remains. An Indian spinner with an average of >31 with 285 wickets in 73 matches. Surely, if people here said Kumble's 600 wickets are attributable to his 125+ test matches, then we can say the same about Harbhajan, and perhaps, it is more true in this case. What are you trying to say here? Once again, I implore you to see the overall career stats of other leading spinners from other test countries. Barring Lanka, almost every other test playing nation's leading spinners have numbers that are worser than Bhajji. How much longer will it take for you to get the point? Can you please tell me what Harbhajan SIngh has done on a helpful pitch in the past 8 years? The man is unable to findout how to bowl on a slow pitch vs. a minefield after 74 matches. What does the last 12-15 months have to do with it? What do you mean? Its got EVERYTHING to do with it. If every other spinner in the world was returning figures of 20 wickets every series at an ave. of 25, I would have long before called for Bhajji to be dropped. But they havent. In fact, the the performance of almost all spinners has gone progressively worse in the time quoted, due to a variety of reasons (slower pitches being one of them). So, dont just single out Bhajji for criticism. That is inappropriate criticism. I couldn't care less about Kaneria. The man is a buffoon. Monty Panesar is worthless right now because, like our very own premier spinner, he was bowling outside the leg stump to Sachin Tendulkar on a 5th day Chennai pitch when the team was chasing 387. You cannot get more incompetent as a spinner than that. Yea right. You may not care about Kaneria, but it was this very same Kaneria who took nearly 200 wickets in his first 40 test matches. Pretty respectable figures I would say. And since then, his numbers have gone downhill. Monty Panesar is worthless RIGHT NOW, he wasnt worthless 12 months ago. In fact, he had taken a very respectable 120 wickets from his first 30 tests. His figures too, have gone south since then. I already mentioned that Jason Krezja outperformed Harbhajan at Nagpur. No matter the runs that he gave away. He's got 12 wickets to show for it, and I'm repeating myself here. Whether he was picked or not is not we're discussing - thats up to the Australian selectors. What? That the Aussie selectors did not pick shows how much they rate him. Dont just keep harping uselessly about the 12 wickets. If that performance was really worth that much, he would have played all other tests since then, he didnt. And as an FYI, Krezja took 12 not because he is a fantastic bowler or anything, the Indians just went after him and he just collected the spoils of war. And why do I need to criticize all these guys if I want to do criticize Harbhajan? The SA selectors, players, or SA fans never claimed Paul Harris was the best spinner in the world. But we've got people who say that he's the best spinner at the moment - blah blah blah. Because that is THE Point Mcsherlock, only you havent got it till now. Because, its about relative performance of all spinners throughout the world. Btw, who said Bhajji is the best spinner in the world? And that you've brought Cameron White in a discussion about spinners completely devalues whatever you have to say. No, it does say a lot about the quality and relative performance of spinners all around the world. Link to comment
Ram Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 This is your premier spinner, and the man you're defending? You repeatedly keep misquoting me. I did not say Bhajji is the greatest thing to have happened since the loaf of bread. I've only said your excessive criticism of Bhajji lacks context and knowledge of performance of other spinners all over the world, in the last 12-15 months, including the great Anil Kumble, who returned some of his worst performance in a home series in the same period. Link to comment
Sachinism Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Lets see the difference in performance between Vettori and Bhaji Link to comment
Mr. Wicket Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I'll just interject in here for a minute. I tried to keep out of this debate, as I'm sick of making the same points over and over again in these Harbhajan is bowling dogshite threads. But this incenses me. PLEASE STOP CALLING CAMERON WHITE A SPIN BOWLER. Link to comment
graphic23 Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 You repeatedly keep misquoting me. I did not say Bhajji is the greatest thing to have happened since the loaf of bread. I've only said your excessive criticism of Bhajji lacks context and knowledge of performance of other spinners all over the world' date=' in the last 12-15 months, including the great Anil Kumble, who returned some of his worst performance in a home series in the same period.[/quote'] You keep mentioning on the past 12-15 months, his average until 18th March 2007: 29.86, and otherwise, because of O'Brien's wicket, 30.96. A different 1.10 runs/wicket given away since 2007. I personally don't see this as substantial as you're making it sound? And since 18th March 2007 -> 18th March 2009, his average 34.37 runs/wicket. A difference of 4.37 runs/wicket in the past 2 years alone. In the same period, Dan Vettori averages 28.31 runs/wicket, while his career average is 33.09. You were saying something about decling returns? Oh, and I know this won't help my argument but to put things to perspective, Murali averages 25 runs/wicket between 2007 and 2009. Will respond to the original reply later. Link to comment
SachDan Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Such pathetic bowling from our premier spin bowler. Patience is wat he lacks at test level. Not ready to flight the ball over a period of time.Instant rewards thats wat our Bhajji wants! Today only time I saw him giving the ball air consistently was when Sachin had a chat with him. Even Dhoni applauded saying "yeh achha hain!". Then why the hell is he not doing it more often? Link to comment
Ram Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 You keep mentioning on the past 12-15 months' date=' his average until 18th March 2007: 29.86, and otherwise, because of O'Brien's wicket, 30.96. A different 1.10 runs/wicket given away since 2007. I personally don't see this as substantial as you're making it sound?[/quote'] Which actually ends up supporting my point, if you havent figured that part already. If anything, it shows Bhajji has not performed as badly as I thought he had. Meanwhile, while you're at it calculating the averages of spinners in the last 12-15 months, do it for spinners also from a) Pakistan b) England c) West Indies d) Australia e) B'desh f) South Africa What you'll notice is that, almost all of these teams have a)no leading spinner at all or b) Most of their leading spinners have been dropped due to bad performance or seen their numbers plummet. So, what does it tell you? To me atleast, it says, spin bowling is getting increasingly hard. And if you include India in the list and take into account Kumble, his figures in the last 12 months were far from impressive. And since 18th March 2007 -> 18th March 2009, his average 34.37 runs/wicket. A difference of 4.37 runs/wicket in the past 2 years alone. In the same period, Dan Vettori averages 28.31 runs/wicket, while his career average is 33.09. You were saying something about decling returns? Which is why I did not quote Vettori in any my posts, coz he has one of the few spinners who has bucked the trend. And even in his case, his overall career number is much worser than Bhajji's. Link to comment
Fontaine Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Come on guys, we all know that there was no spin on offer, just a little bounce and the spinners role on such pitches is to tie the batsmen down and hold up one end. Bhajji did just that, so there's no point on making harsh judgements on him from today's performance. Link to comment
King Tendulkar Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Slamming a spinner based on what he does on a day 1 pitch. The lack of knowledge is shocking. Link to comment
cowboysfan Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Slamming a spinner based on what he does on a day 1 pitch. The lack of knowledge is shocking. i agree.this thread dosent make sense. Link to comment
chanakya Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 We dont have to, coz Sressanth's record as a fast bowler doesnt compare with his contemporaries, from his own team and from other teams. But, do this if you can. Make a list of all spin bowlers who have played international cricket in the last 15 months ( Panesar, Kaneria, Vettori, Kumble [lets add him too], Murali, Hogg, Krezja etc) and see their records. You will see that apart from Mendis and maybe to an extent Murali, Bhajji's record compares quite well with most other. Sreesanth's case is different. I can easily quote names of a dozen names who have better records than Sreesanth in the last 15 months from the top of my head ( Zak, Ishant, Lee, Steyn, Morkel, Johnson, Clark, Flintoff, Anderson, Sidebottom, Broad, Gul, Tanvir, Malinga etc) since when have indian spinners started being compared to other mediocore spinners the world over? Just the fact that they are being compared shows the paucity of our spin resources ... Link to comment
CSK Fan Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Slamming a spinner based on what he does on a day 1 pitch. The lack of knowledge is shocking. Actually, the critism is going on for years and is not based on this one innings. Look at when this thread started Ten years is a long time for a spin bowler to be experienced enough to get wickets on any surface Link to comment
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