Historical review: Was Yuvraj better than Laxman at one point of time ?

[Sachin_Rulez]

He was dropped for Yuvraj Singh' date=' too - a bigger sin.[/quote'] OK. You have to stop taking dig at Yuvraj in every other post. It's one thing praising VVS but not at the expense of yuvi who had worked hard to earn his test spot.

[graphic23]

OK. You have to stop taking dig at Yuvraj in every other post. It's one thing praising VVS but not at the expense of yuvi who had worked hard to earn his test spot.

Ok. Can you go ahead and tell me, when Ganguly was still part of the team -i.e. prior to 2008 October, when has Yuvraj Singh outperformed Laxman to be in the test team. That was my point.

[Sachin_Rulez]

Ok. Can you go ahead and tell me' date=' when Ganguly was still part of the team -i.e. prior to 2008 October, when has Yuvraj Singh outperformed Laxman to be in the test team. That was my point.[/quote'] Yuvraj was in place of Laxman for grand total of 2 tests during Eng tour of India 06. That's more to do with India going with 5 bowlers in the last two tests vs Eng (blame it on Dravid-Chappel combo for that stupidity). Why did Indian team prefer Yuvraj to Laxman for that two tests? For that, you need to look Yuvi's performance during that period. He was in red hot form in ODIs and decent in tests. ODI series vs SA in 2005/06 - 209 runs @ 69.66 - Player of the series ODI series vs Pak in 2005/06 - 344 runs @ 172 - Player of the series In between yuvi played couple of tests and he was the highest scorer (45 & 122) in both of India's innings in that karachi 06 test match where every other Indian batsman struggled to score (with pathan being the second best - 40). Laxman unfortunately didn't score much in the last two tests he played prior to getting dropped in remaining 2 tests vs eng. Was it unfair to drop laxman when indian team decided to go with 5 bowlers? Maybe Was Yuvraj very lucky to get into final XI despite not performing ? Hardly Look, there's no denying that Laxman is an accomplished test batsman and wayyyyyyyy ahead of yuvraj (whose test career is just started to shine ). Lax fully deserves the plaudits he's getting and him being part of the fab four itself is a great compliment. Hope this helps and makes you to stop taking cheap shots at yuvraj just to praise the other batsman.

[graphic23]

Yuvraj was in place of Laxman for grand total of 2 tests during Eng tour of India 06. That's more to do with India going with 5 bowlers in the last two tests vs Eng (blame it on Dravid-Chappel combo for that stupidity). Why did Indian team prefer Yuvraj to Laxman for that two tests? For that, you need to look Yuvi's performance during that period. He was in red hot form in ODIs and decent in tests. ODI series vs SA in 2005/06 - 209 runs @ 69.66 - Player of the series ODI series vs Pak in 2005/06 - 344 runs @ 172 - Player of the series In between yuvi played couple of tests and he was the highest scorer (45 & 122) in both of India's innings in that karachi 06 test match where every other Indian batsman struggled to score (with pathan being the second best - 40). Laxman unfortunately didn't score much in the last two tests he played prior to getting dropped in remaining 2 tests vs eng. Was it unfair to drop laxman when indian team decided to go with 5 bowlers? Maybe Was Yuvraj very lucky to get into final XI despite not performing ? Hardly Look, there's no denying that Laxman is an accomplished test batsman and wayyyyyyyy ahead of yuvraj (whose test career is just started to shine ). Lax fully deserves the plaudits he's getting and him being part of the fab four itself is a great compliment. Hope this helps and makes you to stop taking cheap shots at yuvraj just to praise the other batsman.

Since when have ODI performances been used to judge a player's test abilities? And you yourself admit that there was no plausible reason to drop Laxman for Yuvraj in that series. I have no qualms about Yuvraj being selected - you accuse me of taking potshots at him. I am not. I am saying that Yuvraj Singh, until Ganguly's retirement did not deserve a spot in the Test XI, and it is unfair to Laxman, that he got that spot in place of Laxman. Now do what you will with these statements because I refuse to change my opinion.

[Sachin_Rulez]

Since when have ODI performances been used to judge a player's test abilities?

Please care to read my post. I clearly explained the context that yuvraj got into the test team. Furthermore, check yuvraj scores in karachi test match which was played before that eng series. Regarding ODI performances, didn't ghambir get his test spot back based on his exploits in ODIs and T20s prior to SL test series?

I have no qualms about Yuvraj being selected - you accuse me of taking potshots at him. I am not.

oh please...I didn't want to spoil your wonderful "Thank you" thread but if you insist here's the quote from your post He's probably the most unluckiest player in the Indian team because each knock is forgotten right after the test (with 281 being the exception), and we hear calls to drop him for the matchwinner that is Yuvraj Singh

I am saying that Yuvraj Singh' date=' until Ganguly's retirement [b']did not deserve a spot in the Test XI .

He did deserve a spot for the reasons I explained above. He couldn't maintain consistency and rightly got chopped. He came back after a long gap and made that spectacular 169 against pak. Again got dropped right after aus series and rightly so. Now after Ganguly's retirement he's gonna get long shot in test cricket. So far he seems to be doing ok.

Now do what you will with these statements because I refuse to change my opinion.

LOL! That's pretty much shows your blind hatred towards Yuvraj. As far as changing your opinion, I couldn't care less.

[graphic23]

Um, yes - you haven't proven me wrong. Tell me how many matches Yuvraj has won for India in test matches? Yeah, I thought so. That was not a dig at Yuvraj as much as it was at posters such as yourself who claim he is awesome, and is a great matchwinner. Also, there is nothing wrong with the statement that you have shown from my other thread. I said people have asked Laxman to be dropped in favor of Yuvraj, whom they claim is a great matchwinner. So, again, it was a dig at people like that who think playing fast is better than playing long, and for people who think an angled bat against a new ball, and sweeping every single delivery bowled by a spinner shows aggressiveness. Until the recent Chennai test, and the odd 3 tests against Pakistan, he was given 2 or 3 tests in a row and never performed consistently. And it wasn't that he was in bad form. He would be in great form, and when the tests came about, he'd suck. Right now, perhaps that has changed, and it is well and good. Gambhir is a much superior player of spin than Yuvraj Singh. He performed really well in SL against Murali & Mendis, where, even in the one day internationals, Yuvraj struggled. For someone who's going to come in the middle order, if you're unable to play a very good spinner, you're quite useless in a test XI. Though Gambhir's first test was a long time ago, in the opportunities that were given to him last year, he made full use of it - and has earned his spot to be a regular. And again, I don't hate Yuvraj Singh - but I wouldn't trust you to understand.

[Chandan]

Until the recent Chennai test, and the odd 3 tests against Pakistan, he was given 2 or 3 tests in a row and never performed consistently. And it wasn't that he was in bad form. He would be in great form, and when the tests came about, he'd suck. Right now, perhaps that has changed, and it is well and good. .

I think he was given more than 2-3 tests in a row to seal his place in the team. I'll give you the list: 1. Delhi test in 2005 vs SL 2. Ahmedabad test in 2005 vs SL 3. Lahore test in 2006 vs Pakistan 4. Faisalabad test in 2006 vs Pakistan 5. Karachi test in 2006 vs Pak 6. Mohali test vs in 2006 vs England (He didn't play the 1st test because he wasn't 100%) 7. Bombay test in 2006 vs England 8. Antugua test in 2006 vs WI 9. St Lucia test in 2006 vs WI 10. St Kitts test in 2006 vs WI 11.Jamaica test in 2006 vs WI So it was 11 tests in a row. Some stats savy guys can tell us about the runs scored by Yuvraj and his average during this period too. I watched every test that is listed above and I can say with confidence that Yuvraj failed miserably in these tests. And yes... Even after failing in these tests, he wasn't dropped from the side. He twisted his knee in October during the champions trophy and was ruled out for SA tour. It was this tour when Vengsarkar called back Ganguly and Ganguly repaid his faith in the most specatacular fashion for next 2 yesrs!!

[fineleg]

I think he was given more than 2-3 tests in a row to seal his place in the team. I'll give you the list: 1. Ahmedabad test in 2005 vs SL 2. Lahore test in 2006 vs Pakistan 3. Faisalabad test in 2006 vs Pakistan 4. Karachi test in 2006 vs Pak 5 Mohali test in 2006 vs Eng (He wasn't 100% for the 1st test Nagpur) 6. Bombay test in 2006 vs England 7. Antugua test in 2006 vs WI 8. St Lucia test in 2006 vs WI 9. St Kitts test in 2006 vs WI 10. Jamaica test in 2006 vs WI So it was 10 tests in a row. Some stats savy guys can tell us about the runs scored by Yuvraj and his average during this period too. I watched every test that is listed above and I can say with confidence that Yuvraj failed miserably in these tests. And yes... Even after failing in these tests, he wasn't dropped from the side. He twisted his knee in October during the champions trophy and was ruled out for SA tour. It was this tour when Vengsarkar called back Ganguly and Ganguly repaid his faith in the most specatacular fashion for next 2 yesrs!!

Thanx for digging this up Chandan. Yuvi had been a failure in Tests in the past. He has got another chance at Test career now and so far he has done neither too great, nor too bad. He will be given some time now and it is upto him to cement his place.

[Mr. Wicket]

Yuvraj is an excellent ODI batsman. But the nature of that game is one where angled bats and a slight weakness against spin are irrelevant; his power hitting, ability to take apart bowlers and clear fielders while being a very sharp runner (in a middle order position where he's almost never exposed to a new ball, and rarely has to bat against spinners attacking with close fields) make him lethal - one of the best short-form bats on the planet. Test cricket of course requires different skills, and when Yuvraj had those chances Chandan mentioned, he was either found wanting in technique against the new ball (unlike ODIs, he often would end up facing the second new ball), or against good spinners, hence his less than impressive record in that form (that's only now started to look up a little bit). Time will tell whether he has it in him to really be a success at test level. But it's impossible to call him better than VVS as a test batsman, given that Laxman right through the last 8-9 years has been a quality batsman capable of producing long innings where he's both stuck to the crease and grafted for a few hours, or opened out his shots against quality attacks - pace and spin - and taken them apart, both home and away. The guy has one of the all time great test innings on his resume, plus some other real gems like his two tons in Australia in 03/04, another SCG hundred and a double v. Australia in 2008, and other huge match-saving innings like these - http://content.cricinfo.com/statsguru/engine/match/64047.html and http://content.cricinfo.com/statsguru/engine/match/64006.html

[Chandan]

Test cricket of course requires different skills, and when Yuvraj had those chances Chandan mentioned, he was either found wanting in technique against the new ball (unlike ODIs, he often would end up facing the second new ball), or against good spinners, hence his less than impressive record in that form (that's only now started to look up a little bit).

Quite right Salil. And I must tell people, who keep on harping on the fact that Yuvraj never got a consistent run in test cricket, that 11 tests are enough for a good batsman to cement his place in the team. If he doesn't, he isn't good enough and couldn't be given more than that in the name of consistent run. Yuvraj is lucky that he got a second chance too. But if he squanders this opportunity as well, there are many young batsmen waiting to get into the squad. And if they are good enough, they'll seal their place in these many opportunities. Graphic is 100% correct in saying that Yuvraj did not deserve a chance before Ganguly's retirement because both Laxman and Ganguly are far far far superior 'test' batsmen than what Yuvraj is even now. There is no denying the fact that Yuvraj has talent but that is there with certain flaws too which more often than not cause his downfall in tests, whereas he can escape in ODIs because of different field setting and different mindset of bowlers. BTW, Salil, what are the stats for Yuvraj during that period of 11 tests? .

[Gambit]

Laxy's performances in test cricket before he played the 167 were worse than Yuvi's. He had a measly average of 24 from his first 16 tests with 0 hundreds and was destined to be another Rathore(in Laxy's defence, he was made the sacrifical lamb at the top a few times) before he lit up SCG with that 167. Just to compare, Yuvraj after 16 tests, averaged 37 with 2 tons. Laxy was a late bloomer and did justice the long rope given to him. Not many would know that in the lead up to the 2001 series, he made 9 domestic 100s from 12 games, two of which were triple tons.

[Chandan]

Laxy's performances in test cricket before he played the 167 were worse than Yuvi's. He had a measly average of 24 from his first 16 tests with 0 hundreds and was destined to be another Rathore(in Laxy's defence, he was made the sacrifical lamb at the top a few times) before he lit up SCG with that 167. Just to compare, Yuvraj after 16 tests, averaged 37 with 2 tons. Laxy was a late bloomer and did justice the long rope given to him. Not many would know that in the lead up to the 2001 series, he made 9 domestic 100s from 12 games, two of which were triple tons.

Had Laxman got 11 consecutive tests in the MO, though?

[Gambit]

Had Laxman got 11 consecutive tests in the MO' date=' though?[/quote'] In his first 12 innings in the middle order, he averaged 23. Would you, as a selector, still have retained him?

[Chandan]

Gambit, 12 innings still is not 11 tests. Besides that, Laxman had not got the exposure that Yuvraj got prior to 2005 through playing in various countries against international class bowlers. When Yuvraj will play a 281 kind of knock against the best bowlers of the world, I'll speak of him in the same vein. But not now. In 2006, he didn't have the ability to keep Laxman out of the squad. And that is the point being made here. You can tell me about Laxman's stats when he got 11 consecutive tests as a MO batsman and then we can compare that with Yuvraj's. Otherwise one brilliant inning here or there hardly proves a point, for both Yuvraj and Laxman.

[Gambit]

Gambit, 12 innings still is not 11 tests. Besides that, Laxman had not got the exposure that Yuvraj got prior to 2005 through playing in various countries against international class bowlers. When Yuvraj will play a 281 kind of knock against the best bowlers of the world, I'll speak of him in the same vein. But not now. In 2006, he didn't have the ability to keep Laxman out of the squad. And that is the point being made here. You can tell me about Laxman's stats when he got 11 consecutive tests as a MO batsman and then we can compare that with Yuvraj's. Otherwise one brilliant inning here or there hardly proves a point, for both Yuvraj and Laxman.

The point I am making is that whichever way you look at it, Laxman's had a horrendous start to his career and the long rope he got, by dint of his domestic performances and selectors having faith in him, helped him blossom into the star he is today. Yuvraj has had a much much better start but still gets abuse when picked. What I am trying to say is that had ICF been around 10 years ago, Laxy would have copped the same abuse. Laxy needed time to show what he was made of and maybe, so does Yuvi. And you don't have to mention Yuvraj in the same breath as Laxman. No one will as Laxman is miles better. But that does not mean Yuvraj is rubbish and that he doesn't deserve a spot today.

[Chandan]

And you don't have to mention Yuvraj in the same breath as Laxman. No one will as Laxman is miles better. But that does not mean Yuvraj is rubbish and that he doesn't deserve a spot today.

I don't think anyone is saying that Yuvraj doesn't deserve a spot today. I think most of us agreed that after Ganguly's retirement, Yuvraj would and should get his spot. Here people are discussing if Yuvraj was good enough to keep Laxman out of the squad which he did in 2005-06 series vs England at home in the 2nd and the 3rd test. I suppose no, and selectors were being extremely unfair to Laxman when they preferred Yuvraj ahead of Laxman. I think skipper Dravid and coach Chappell were aslso responsible for that decision. Once it comes to one spot and choice between Yuvraj and Laxman, and Yuvraj is preferred then fans have the right to question that decision, citing Yuvraj's failure compared to Laxman's.

[aseemraina]

I dont think he has Test Match temperment..He will have to score in more pressure situations and for a longer period of time..A lot of patience is needed in Test Cricket which I am not sure he has... Also, bout ODI's, he hasn't proved himself on seaming wickets..I would like to see some good knocks from him..

[Show_stopper]

I doubt he'll average above 40..which when all things considered is worse than any current English batsman..nuff said.I suppose he'll get a few more opportunities to prove his worth but i doubt even he will harbor any hopes of playing Tests again if he messes it up this time.

[fineleg]

I doubt he'll average above 40..which when all things considered is worse than any current English batsman..nuff said.I suppose he'll get a few more opportunities to prove his worth but i doubt even he will harbor any hopes of playing Tests again if he messes it up this time.

He has got lot of chances before - he is lucky to have this chance now. If he messes this one, move on - try other players for Tests. This is it - he needs to grab onto this now.

[King]

At some point in time even Devang Gandhi must have had a better average than Sehwag, that doesn't make him better than or on par with Sehwag does it? :haha: This reminds me of Devang Gandhi's entry into international cricket and S Ramesh the left handed opener's response to his selection.

The morning session saw Sadagopan Ramesh in the spotlight. Two phrases that characterise the left-handed opener are 'extravagantly talented' and 'incredibly laidback'. Earlier this year my colleague, Faisal Shariff, in course of a casual conversation with him, asked him why he didn't focus more on making big scores at the domestic level. 'You know how it is in India, you might have a damn good record in international cricket but selectors can drop you for little or no reason. Look at Devang Gandhi, he has been scoring runs, making a push to come back,' Faisal pointed out. Ramesh's response is worth quoting, if only because it tells you the kind of guy he is: 'What, da!,' he went, 'given the bowling we get at the domestic level, why Devang Gandhi, even Mahatma Gandhi will score runs!' That is Ramesh -- casual to the point of being exasperating but, out there in the middle, talented to an extreme. Both qualities were in evidence this morning as the left-handed opener produced an array of effortless strokes, the drives square on the off and the flicks off the hips being the stand-out specimens, to get India off to a cracking start. The 50 came up in the 12th over and Ramesh's contribution was 34 off just 37 deliveries.

:hysterical: