cндябеяs Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 "We cannot accept to have in our country women who are prisoners behind netting, cut off from all social life, deprived of identity," Mr Sarkozy told a special session of parliament in Versailles. "That is not the idea that the French republic has of women's dignity. "The burka is not a sign of religion, it is a sign of subservience. It will not be welcome on the territory of the French republic," the French president said. But he stressed that France "must not fight the wrong battle", saying that "the Muslim religion must be respected as much as other religions" in the country. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8112821.stm
Ram Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 "The burka is not a sign of religion, it is a sign of subservience. It will not be welcome on the territory of the French republic," the French president said. I disagree. In fact, I want to counter this point by paraphrasing a part of President’s Obama’s historic speech in Cairo where he says ‘A girl who wears a Burqa is no less equal than a girl who doesn’t, but a girl who is denied the opportunity to go to school certainly is less equal than a girl who does..’ If a women wants to wear the Burqa out of her own free-will, she must be allowed to do so. She has every right to choose not expose her skin. On the flip-side, what we get in the West in the name of Womens’ rights is mostly extreme sexuality in the society. If the West wants to run their life based on over-charged sex hormones and picture perfect bodies, let them do so. Why should they force the rest of the world to follow suit?
King Tendulkar Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 I disagree. In fact, I want to counter this point by paraphrasing a part of President’s Obama’s historic speech in Cairo where he says ‘A girl who wears a Burqa is no less equal than a girl who doesn’t, but a girl who is denied the opportunity to go to school certainly is less equal than a girl who does..’ If a women wants to wear the Burqa out of her own free-will, she must be allowed to do so. She has every right to choose not expose her skin. On the flip-side, what we get in the West in the name of Womens’ rights is mostly extreme sexuality in the society. If the West wants to run their life based on over-charged sex hormones and picture perfect bodies, let them do so. Why should they force the rest of the world to follow suit? What about all those women who don't want to wear a burqua or hijab but are forced to by family/society pressure or by the law of the land or the religious police!
Ram Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 What about all those women who don't want to wear a burqua or hijab but are forced to by family/society pressure or by the law of the land or the religious police! Well, that’s clearly improper. Again, its upto the individual women to decide how she wants to ‘express’ herself. If she chooses to dress scantily, that is her choice. Likewise, if she chooses to cover herself, so be it. But this notion that all women who go around in sunbathing in Bikinis on beaches are somehow superior or more free compared to women who wear the Burqa out of self-will is ludicrous. Once again, nothing should be done against the will of the women.
King Tendulkar Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 Well' date=' that’s clearly improper. Again, [b']its upto the individual women to decide how she wants to ‘express’ herself. If she chooses to dress scantily, that is her choice. Likewise, if she chooses to cover herself, so be it. But this notion that all women who go around in sunbathing in Bikinis on beaches are somehow superior or more free compared to women who wear the Burqa out of self-will is ludicrous. Once again, nothing should be done against the will of the women. Thats the point, they dont actually get to decide!
triam Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 Agree with MM, government has no business involving in individual rights,if a woman wants to wear a burqa, let her be. Although, punishments towards people who force burqa should be severe.
Ram Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 Thats the point' date=' they dont actually get to decide![/quote'] Well, I was specifically responding to Sarkozy’s statement. If he had said ‘Women should not be forced to wear the Burqa against their will’ I would have wholeheartedly agreed with him. But his statement seems to imply as though wearing the Burqa is a default indication of women subservience and male-domination and I have reservations with that contention.
Lurker Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 Well' date=' I was specifically responding to Sarkozy’s statement. If he had said ‘Women should not be forced to wear the Burqa against their will’ I would have wholeheartedly agreed with him. [b']But his statement seems to imply as though wearing the Burqa is a default indication of women subservience and male-domination and I have reservations with that contention. Lets throw in a twist here. Who in France, for example, would wear a burqa? Is there a chance that a French convert to Islam starts donning burqa the moment he embraces Islam? Clearly not. In the US many an African Americans have gotten converted to Islam but does anyone ever find their wife moving around in burqas all of a sudden? Obviously not because the Western born female just wont agree. The issue is with the migrant population. The females of these migrants are not endowed with enough freedom to make the choice on what to wear. They are dominated in their decisions by their male counterpart. So Sarkozy's point should be listened to. He is not recommending what should happen in Islamic world, he is only suggesting what should work in France afterall. xxx
The Outsider Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 It's a tough one, but I doubt any woman would genuinely want to wear a burkha - the ones that claim that they do have been hardwired and brainwashed since childhood. Moreover, a burkha is a genuine and valid security concern specially given the touchy religious feelings attached to it.
triam Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 It's a tough one, but I doubt any woman would genuinely want to wear a burkha - the ones that claim that they do have been hardwired and brainwashed since childhood. Moreover, a burkha is a genuine and valid security concern specially given the touchy religious feelings attached to it. Maybe a rule that till the girl is 18 she cant wear a burqa? so that she can make an intelligent grown up decision after that?
cowboysfan Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 sarkozy is right-Burqa is not supported in muslim scriptures (quran).It is the interpretation of early muslim clergy of some vague comments in the Quran of women covering their bodies.
The Outsider Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 Maybe a rule that till the girl is 18 she cant wear a burqa? so that she can make an intelligent grown up decision after that? Good idea in theory, but impossible to ascertain the age of a person wearing a burkha.
triam Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 Good idea in theory' date=' but impossible to ascertain the age of a person wearing a burkha.[/quote'] Maybe you should get a license to wear a burqa, and pin it outside the burqa, that way both the age limit and also the security considerations will be far lesser. I am only half kidding here:winky:
dial_100 Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 There are many girls I am sure in America who do not want to have boy friends so early in their teens and wear those dirty cloths... go check how they are treated by their fellows. I aint kidding. I heard about one girl and she used come crying home everyday...And even her dad was very upset that such a nice kid was tortured for years by her friends and college mates. She finally had to hang up with one messed up guy and spoil her life.. I heard this from her own dad...guyss.. there are problems everywhere... To me burkha or no burkha....freedom is important but every society has its own problems...
Ram Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 Maybe a rule that till the girl is 18 she cant wear a burqa? so that she can make an intelligent grown up decision after that? Age has got little with emotional maturity/intelligence. A girl maybe only 15 but still maybe fully capable of evaluating independently if it is right for her to wear the Burqa. On the flip-side, someone else maybe 23 but could be entirely incapable of thinking independently. Besides, imposing an arbitary age-limit on issues of faith/ideology/personal preference does not sound right.
The Outsider Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 Maybe you should get a license to wear a burqa' date=' and pin it outside the burqa, that way both the age limit and also the security considerations will be far lesser. I am only half kidding here:winky:[/quote'] :giggle:
The Outsider Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 Age has got little with emotional maturity/intelligence. A girl maybe only 15 but still maybe fully capable of evaluating independently if it is right for her to wear the Burqa. On the flip-side, someone else maybe 23 but could be entirely incapable of thinking independently. Besides, imposing an arbitary age-limit on issues of faith/ideology/personal preference does not sound right. The government has to determine the general maturity level in a lot of instances for example voting/drinking/driving age. Not that everyone below the age is unfit for the activities and at midnight of your birthday you suddenly become fit for them. The Burkha cutlure is a forced brainwashing and imposing an age limit, though impractical, to ensure it's a free choice is not impinging on anyone's rights.
kumble_rocks Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 Well, that’s clearly improper. Again, its upto the individual women to decide how she wants to ‘express’ herself. If she chooses to dress scantily, that is her choice. Likewise, if she chooses to cover herself, so be it. But this notion that all women who go around in sunbathing in Bikinis on beaches are somehow superior or more free compared to women who wear the Burqa out of self-will is ludicrous. Once again, nothing should be done against the will of the women. It is ludicrous to suggest that independent free thinking secular minded women will wear the Bee Keeper's headgear on their own accord ! Don't confuse it with Hijab which I am sure some women will like to wear it on their own accord. The last time I checked , their is no edicts in the west on the same wave length against women wearing sari or salwar kameez. The problem with PC crowd is that they try to be tolerant towards subjects who are intolerant. Trying to be tolerant and extending civil liberties to bunch of hard wired , ideologically brain washed islamists is not only unwise , but quite frankly dangerous in my opinion. Do you seriously think that these mullah crowd accompanying these burqa clad women are liberated in terms of their social thought process. Heck , if roles were reversed and they were the majority, they would not hesitate for a moment to impose strict sharia law and force one and all to wear that bee keeper dress.Ask Saudi ....
Ram Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 It is ludicrous to suggest that independent free thinking secular minded women will wear the Bee Keeper's headgear on their own accord ! Don't confuse it with Hijab which I am sure some women will like to wear it on their own accord. The last time I checked ' date=' their is no edicts in the west on the same wave length against women wearing sari or salwar kameez. The problem with PC crowd is that they try to be tolerant towards subjects who are intolerant. Trying to be tolerant and extending civil liberties to bunch of hard wired , ideologically brain washed islamists is not only unwise , but quite frankly dangerous in my opinion. Do you seriously think that these mullah crowd accompanying these burqa clad women are liberated in terms of their social thought process. Heck , if roles were reversed and they were the majority, they would not hesitate for a moment to impose strict sharia law and force one and all to wear that bee keeper dress.Ask Saudi ....[/quote'] K_R, you’re missing the crux of my argument. I did never claimed ‘Wearing a Burqa is a good thing and ideally, all Muslim women should do it’. I said ‘If a women wants to wear a Burqa, she should be allowed to do it.’ I see nothing flawed in this statement and I stand by it. Now, how many women would actually want to do, is a matter of entirely different discussion. I also said that it is ludicrous to consider a bikini-clad, sun-bathing women to be superior or more ‘free’ than a Burqa clad women. Once again, I think this statement makes perfect sense and I stand by it again.
King Tendulkar Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 It is ludicrous to suggest that independent free thinking secular minded women will wear the Bee Keeper's headgear on their own accord ! Don't confuse it with Hijab which I am sure some women will like to wear it on their own accord. The last time I checked ' date=' their is no edicts in the west on the same wave length against women wearing sari or salwar kameez. The problem with PC crowd is that they try to be tolerant towards subjects who are intolerant. Trying to be tolerant and extending civil liberties to bunch of hard wired , ideologically brain washed islamists is not only unwise , but quite frankly dangerous in my opinion. Do you seriously think that these mullah crowd accompanying these burqa clad women are liberated in terms of their social thought process. Heck , if roles were reversed and they were the majority, they would not hesitate for a moment to impose strict sharia law and force one and all to wear that bee keeper dress.Ask Saudi ....[/quote'] Spot on post! Agree that many women may actually choose to wear the hijab! But the burqua/niqab......... Sarkozy is spot on here
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