Views on the increasing naxalite and maoist problem in India

[ViruRulez]

Maoists and Naxalites are increasing their attacks on Indian security forces and public and this is gradually turning into a nuisance. The worst thing is that human rights activists are supporting these Maoists and Naxals in the name of human rights. I was watching CNN-IBN today and I was really pissed off the way Booker prize winner Arundhati Roy was supporting the Maoists and Naxals (whom I also consider terrorists) and was opposing to almost every sane thing spoken by Rajdeep Sardesai. She was almost speaking in a communist tone rather than a democratic tone which was really pissing off. She did not agree that violence should not be used and non-violent means should be adopted. She openly said she is not a Mahatma and will not act like one. I was really pissed off with her attitude. What do you personally think about it? Should it be crushed completely or should we give in to these human rights thugs who are nowhere to be seen during the terrorist strikes etc. ? I agree that there are some problems about development in rural areas but violence by any particular group cannot be accepted. I am pissed off with the way this Naxalite and Maoist problem has emerged in recent months. And I still do not understand that why did it take so many years to ban such a violent group (Naxalites were banned this year only) when it should have been done ages ago. Views please. :hatsoff:

[Lurker]

What do I personally think about Naxals? Well I slept with a dunaali guarding my farm with my brother when I was 16 and after. So you can guess how I feel. Naxalism has basically happened because of land reforms, or lack thereof. It is easy to convince a landless person that the farm he is tilling actually belongs to him and not the landlord who sits far away in a remote city earning money for doing nothing. There is a certain merit to the argument, more so because many landlords have historically been almost animalistic in their treatment of laborers. However what compounded the problem was the fact that the Naxals mostly concentrated on Eastern India (Bengal-Bihar-Orrissa) and rest of the country gave damn about it. It is only when Naxals started hitting in AP, MP even Maharastra that Indians actually took notice of this. Most Biharis would tell you first hand this is not a new phenomenon and has been around since late 70s and early 80s. Bengalis would probably have even earlier experiences. So what can be done? Land reforms is the first thing that comes to mind. Secondly the Naxals need to be dealt with force, they are not going to listen to philosphies etc. Thirdly the upper middle class has to sit and discuss the lopsided growth that is happening in India these days. You simply can not have areas of extreme riches and then extreme poverty like you have today. The latter is a great recipe for external powers to exploit. xxx

[coffee_rules]

The feudal system of land ownership is solely responsible. My grandfather owned land in the 50s, moved to cities, but lost the land to the farmers because of land reforms. I think some states didn't implement the land reform as per the rule, and the injustice carried over generations have caused the current situation. Definitely, there is a nexus between these naxals and terrorists like LTTE, jiahidists. I think the first thing that the Govt/Military/RAW has to do cut off these source lines and then only resolve the issue thru diplimacy. If they start killing innocent people like police constables, then they have to be dealt like terrorists.

[ViruRulez]

What do I personally think about Naxals? Well I slept with a dunaali guarding my farm with my brother when I was 16 and after. So you can guess how I feel. Naxalism has basically happened because of land reforms, or lack thereof. It is easy to convince a landless person that the farm he is tilling actually belongs to him and not the landlord who sits far away in a remote city earning money for doing nothing. There is a certain merit to the argument, more so because many landlords have historically been almost animalistic in their treatment of laborers. However what compounded the problem was the fact that the Naxals mostly concentrated on Eastern India (Bengal-Bihar-Orrissa) and rest of the country gave damn about it. It is only when Naxals started hitting in AP, MP even Maharastra that Indians actually took notice of this. Most Biharis would tell you first hand this is not a new phenomenon and has been around since late 70s and early 80s. Bengalis would probably have even earlier experiences. So what can be done? Land reforms is the first thing that comes to mind. Secondly the Naxals need to be dealt with force, they are not going to listen to philosphies etc. Thirdly the upper middle class has to sit and discuss the lopsided growth that is happening in India these days. You simply can not have areas of extreme riches and then extreme poverty like you have today. The latter is a great recipe for external powers to exploit. xxx

What kind of land reform will help? I think Indian Constitution had abolished the right to property a long time ago. But what exactly should be the changes in land reform? I dont know how is it absurd to not own a land. When I go to different places, I also take rent. I cannot own land in each and ever nook and corner of India. It is more important that the farmers etc. are treated fairly and given benefits and amenities by the landlords. If I say that all the rural land has to be distributed suddenly amongst all the landless farmers then also it would be unfair. Remember last year a lot of farmers who owned good amount of land also committed suicide last year due to famines etc. So, it is not only that if a farmer is given a piece of land he will be able to live a good life. I dont see anything wrong if there are other owners but the farmer is given good life by the landlords. To give an example, the Ambanis had started their own farms for their Reliance supermarkets but I am quite sure the farmers working there would not be in a very bad condition. I am not much into landlord and this feudal system and I have never ever seen it happen it in India. Me/my family also has got a few acres in villages from dad's paternal property but we do not look over it. Never have even visited it too nor take the profit. One of my dad's younger brothers often visits it. The farmers are living a good lifestyle compared to village lives. Though I normally do not like visiting villages but I remember going to the village once or twice in my childhood and all the farmers etc. were treated very fairly. They used to go to village schools etc. and most well educated children came away from the village to towns and cities for better education and then job. So, it is also upon the farmers and poorer classes to get proper education and thereby improve their livelihood. If you say about the upper middle class or educated rich people (not hereditary ones) of India today then most of them have improved their standard of living in the past few decades. Most of them have improved their standard of living by virtue of education. So, I believe that proper and competitive education to the poorer classes and farmers etc. is more important than land reforms. And in education too, I believe English should be a priority in schools. It might take a student more time to learn English than learning his native language but in the real world, a person with a good command over English has a lot more opportunities than a native language scholar whose reach is limited to his/her native place. Anyways my main point is that only land reform cannot solve it but better education is important. Regarding distribution of wealth, India is a democracy and not a communist state to have equal distribution. Whoever works harder and educates better will have better earnings and I dont see anything bad with it. Anyways, everything should be resolved through non-violence and not by killing people. One more question. What do you think of the so called human rights activists who have problem when it concerns terrorists, naxalites, maoists etc. being killed but never raise their voice when a bomb blast happens or maoists kill public or security forces. I really feel these fake human rights activists as pathetic if not more than fake animal rights activists like Peta which is nowadays turning out to be insidious form of getting celebs exposed. When an Indian citizen is harmed or killed they would hide in their hole but when some anti-national person is grilled they have all the problems.

The feudal system of land ownership is solely responsible. My grandfather owned land in the 50s, moved to cities, but lost the land to the farmers because of land reforms. I think some states didn't implement the land reform as per the rule, and the injustice carried over generations have caused the current situation. Definitely, there is a nexus between these naxals and terrorists like LTTE, jiahidists. I think the first thing that the Govt/Military/RAW has to do cut off these source lines and then only resolve the issue thru diplimacy. If they start killing innocent people like police constables, then they have to be dealt like terrorists.

I agree. They cannot get all the arms and ammunition without any external help. The biggest arms they can make at home is a kutta at the most but those grenades, bombs and other advanced weapons cannot be made. It is quite sure that they must be funded by external sources maybe even communists (some has even predicted Chinese connections though not verified). If they have problems they are sure to resolve it in a peaceful manner but I hate the use of violence and killing. They can negotiate and sort it out peacefully. But this violence is what pisses me off. If they continue violence they should be dealt like terrorists and eliminated completely. But yes proper steps should be taken for giving them better standard of living. But everything should be done in non-violent manner.

[Lurker]

What kind of land reform will help?

A few point that I can think of: 1) Implementation of land ceiling act thereby limiting the amount of land a person can retain. The extra surplus would then be distributed amongst the landless. This obviously sounds Socialistic but considering India has about 2% of land but supports 15-20% of world population we are severely limited on land resources front. The challenge would be compounded by the fact that even after we "snatch" the land from the landlords(who wont give it away easily anyway) the sheer number of landless folks would mean the strip of land they get is not big enough to sustain their family. Still it would be a good start. 2) Implementation of bataidaari system. This typically means the landlord "rents" his plot to the farmer who then tills it and gets his share. Historically this has never been a fair share and even though the entire work is done by the farmer he may end up receiving 10-20% of the total crop yield. Just as no IT professional wants to make 1000 bucks for his company and earns only 100 bucks for himself, similar are the sentiments for the farmers.

I dont know how is it absurd to not own a land. When I go to different places, I also take rent. I cannot own land in each and ever nook and corner of India.

Actually I wouldnt mind a strong discussion on this front in Indian Parliament. In bulk of modern constructions in India today (read housing in cosmopolitan towns) the houses are either being bought by NRIs or Indians who already have a house but want to use real estate as "investment". That logic(real estate as investment) works fantastically in US since there is so much land but in India where land is limited it is almost criminal to have the actual citizens of a city unable to buy houses in the town, but people who reside in a seperate country altogether having such householdings.

Remember last year a lot of farmers who owned good amount of land also committed suicide last year due to famines etc. So, it is not only that if a farmer is given a piece of land he will be able to live a good life.

Which is why you need to start thinking of professions and jobs so that people are not solely dependent on farming. A big transformation for India since the days of Nehru is that we now have pockets of riches and extreme pockets of poverty. In early days atleast you had big industries being opened everywhere making sure people got a job. These days the big companies rush to developed area to "tap" into the existing infrastructure. Well if you dont give a job to a poor fella in Orissa how is he going to sustain his family? He will either move to Calcutta and put extra stress on an already stressed town or quite likely he will get frustrated and start doing something like what you are witnessing. xxx

[ViruRulez]

2) Implementation of bataidaari system. This typically means the landlord "rents" his plot to the farmer who then tills it and gets his share. Historically this has never been a fair share and even though the entire work is done by the farmer he may end up receiving 10-20% of the total crop yield. Just as no IT professional wants to make 1000 bucks for his company and earns only 100 bucks for himself, similar are the sentiments for the farmers.

Frankly speaking this seems to be fairest and the most democratic way of doing it. But yes there should be laws where the farmers get 50% or so of the total profit from the crop produced in the land tilled by the farmer. And as I said previously too, the most important thing is to provide good education (preferably English) to their children so that the next generation has scope of better jobs and becoming independent too. The landlord will surely make a good percentage because that is what any business is about. Like you gave the example above, an IT professional or even an IITian or an IIMian for that matter works for big companies in the US but the company makes at least 10-20 times more than his salary from his work. That is what business and entrepreneurship is. But yes a company owner cannot be compared to a landowner but it is also business. I think 50:50 is a fair share and maybe govt. should implement such a law and govt. should also make sure that the children of the farmers and rural citizens also receive proper education.

A few point that I can think of: 1) Implementation of land ceiling act thereby limiting the amount of land a person can retain. The extra surplus would then be distributed amongst the landless. This obviously sounds Socialistic but considering India has about 2% of land but supports 15-20% of world population we are severely limited on land resources front. The challenge would be compounded by the fact that even after we "snatch" the land from the landlords(who wont give it away easily anyway) the sheer number of landless folks would mean the strip of land they get is not big enough to sustain their family. Still it would be a good start. Actually I wouldnt mind a strong discussion on this front in Indian Parliament. In bulk of modern constructions in India today (read housing in cosmopolitan towns) the houses are either being bought by NRIs or Indians who already have a house but want to use real estate as "investment". That logic(real estate as investment) works fantastically in US since there is so much land but in India where land is limited it is almost criminal to have the actual citizens of a city unable to buy houses in the town, but people who reside in a seperate country altogether having such householdings. Which is why you need to start thinking of professions and jobs so that people are not solely dependent on farming. A big transformation for India since the days of Nehru is that we now have pockets of riches and extreme pockets of poverty. In early days atleast you had big industries being opened everywhere making sure people got a job. These days the big companies rush to developed area to "tap" into the existing infrastructure. Well if you dont give a job to a poor fella in Orissa how is he going to sustain his family? He will either move to Calcutta and put extra stress on an already stressed town or quite likely he will get frustrated and start doing something like what you are witnessing. xxx

The points made in the above quote are ok. But at the same time most of them are from the socialist approach and so it is not feasible for a democratic society. A valid point is that India has around 2% of land resource while support 15-20% of the world's population. But there is nothing than can be done right now except to pass a law making it mandatory to restrict the no. of children to only 2. At the rate at which our population is increasing, we might not have even enough agricultural land or in worst case even land for homes in the future. One more big problem is the female foeticide which has resulted in huge difference in male:female ratio. There should be proper and strict laws (maybe upto life sentence) passed to control the population as well as female foeticide. It is not possible for every person to own land as there is scarcity of land in India compared to the population. Even China has a much larger land per capita compared to India. Even China has almost 3 times the per capita land compared to India. So, if we say that every person should own a land in the place where he works or resides it would be unfair. Even US has people without lands and it is same in any democracy. If the UIDAI (similar to SSN) is implemented in India properly within the next few years as promised then it would help a lot in solving these problems. The first step that should be taken to improve the standard of living of the poorer people is to give everybody good education and opportunities. And the best way to do that is to abolish the present quota system completely from India and implement a quota system based on the poorer people in the society. I would say that quota for only the poverty line is not fair but it should include low earning families too (maybe under Rs. 2000 per month) etc. Maybe it should be made similar to the ST, OBC etc. quota today where ST, SC get the best values and then comes OBC etc.. Similarly BPL should get the top priority in quota and then low income families should be similar to the OBC etc. system of today where there is lesser competition than general but more competition than SC/ST etc. But I am not sure if any govt. or political party in India is bold enough to take the right steps in a proper manner. One major step which I believe should be immediately taken within the next few years in order to develop the education

[triam]

A few point that I can think of: 1) Implementation of land ceiling act thereby limiting the amount of land a person can retain. The extra surplus would then be distributed amongst the landless. This obviously sounds Socialistic but considering India has about 2% of land but supports 15-20% of world population we are severely limited on land resources front. The challenge would be compounded by the fact that even after we "snatch" the land from the landlords(who wont give it away easily anyway) the sheer number of landless folks would mean the strip of land they get is not big enough to sustain their family. Still it would be a good start. 2) Implementation of bataidaari system. This typically means the landlord "rents" his plot to the farmer who then tills it and gets his share. Historically this has never been a fair share and even though the entire work is done by the farmer he may end up receiving 10-20% of the total crop yield. Just as no IT professional wants to make 1000 bucks for his company and earns only 100 bucks for himself, similar are the sentiments for the farmers.

Point 1, it is a dangerous road Lurker, and it is proven to fail, you dont undertake sociological experiments of that magnitude without some serious serious research, As someone said "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". Of all the landlords how many are self made and how many are landlords because of their lineage and past atrocities? I can atleast see some sense in abducting land from kings and zamindars who have 1000's of acres just cos they were born in their lineage, what about all the self made land lords? are you going to punish them for their entrepreneurship and ingenuity? Point 2, but IT workers do earn far lesser than what his compnay earns. The few and far between IT workers who get to take 70-80% of their billable rate, are not as common and they do undertake the inherent risk that they will be first ones to laid off. Also, their skillsets are the ones that give them confidence to barter and negotiate the higher rates in the first place. I am clueless about farming although I do come from farmers family background (my father was one till 25 when he moved to the city). Are there skillsets that farmers accrue that are irreplaceable? that goes above and beyond physical toll? Iam sure there is, if that were the case then that provides some hope.

Actually I wouldnt mind a strong discussion on this front in Indian Parliament. In bulk of modern constructions in India today (read housing in cosmopolitan towns) the houses are either being bought by NRIs or Indians who already have a house but want to use real estate as "investment". That logic(real estate as investment) works fantastically in US since there is so much land but in India where land is limited it is almost criminal to have the actual citizens of a city unable to buy houses in the town, but people who reside in a seperate country altogether having such householdings.

As much as I would like to believe in this, it is just not true, the true indicator more than the population is population density, I can list two countries whose population density is much higher than India's, Hong Kong and South Korea where they dont face these problems. Japan's populatin density is very close to India and neither do they face this prblem, or in other words they have managed to solve this problem in some other way. People always invest in stuff which are in high demand, tht is the whole point of investing, and thats what drives a countries economy and GDP etc, what you are proposing is to stagnate the economy, that is not sustainable.

Which is why you need to start thinking of professions and jobs so that people are not solely dependent on farming. A big transformation for India since the days of Nehru is that we now have pockets of riches and extreme pockets of poverty. In early days atleast you had big industries being opened everywhere making sure people got a job. These days the big companies rush to developed area to "tap" into the existing infrastructure. Well if you dont give a job to a poor fella in Orissa how is he going to sustain his family? He will either move to Calcutta and put extra stress on an already stressed town or quite likely he will get frustrated and start doing something like what you are witnessing. xxx

It is for the each individual states to bend over backwards to invite industries into their states, Why do you think Orissa is being sidelined? The government has to provide the infrastructure.

So what can be done? Land reforms is the first thing that comes to mind. Secondly the Naxals need to be dealt with force, they are not going to listen to philosphies etc. Thirdly the upper middle class has to sit and discuss the lopsided growth that is happening in India these days. You simply can not have areas of extreme riches and then extreme poverty like you have today. The latter is a great recipe for external powers to exploit.

Why should the upper middle class do this? the majority of the people in the upper middle class, are not there because they were always upper middle class, myself for example would be considered upper middle class I would guess, but I was not born upper middle class nor was I brought up as upper middle class, I delivered newspapers in the mornings to save money for my undergraduate fees, worked as a door to door salesman in the summer holiday periods etc, my father worked from 4 in the morning till 10 in the night everyday from 25 to 55 to provide for the education of me and my brother. I dont feel guilty that I am in a comfortable position today, because I have put in the hard work for it. The only solution is for the government to have a sliding tax structure, stop black money being horded by politicians and their ilk, streamline and monitor policies so that they reach their end goals and more importantly show ingenuity in coming up with the plans.

[Lurker]

The points made in the above quote are ok. But at the same time most of them are from the socialist approach and so it is not feasible for a democratic society.

Frankly I see nothing wrong with Socialism. Many of the best economies today are more Socialistic than Capitalistic in nature. Oddly enough Socialism has become a beating stick in India for reasons unknown to people.

But there is nothing than can be done right now except to pass a law making it mandatory to restrict the no. of children to only 2. At the rate at which our population is increasing, we might not have even enough agricultural land or in worst case even land for homes in the future.

You can pass laws but I already see religious people having problems with that, specially minorities. It is easy to pass such a law in Communistic China but in a country like ours where we pride in diversity of religion and culture it wont happen.

The first step that should be taken to improve the standard of living of the poorer people is to give everybody good education and opportunities.

Thats being a bit naieve I am afraid my friend. It kind of reminds me of a recent conversation I had. My parents(they live in Bihar) were speaking to me one day and my Mom mentioned how the summers were so serious that all rice crops died and the unexpected rains in winter also increased the chances of death of wheat crops. Our village folks who are dependent on Agriculture for sustenance are already worried about famine. I was having this discussion with a friend of mine who calmly said - Man you need education to combat this. It was so stunningly stupid that I did not know where to start to educate him. What do you say to a farmer whose family is expecting a famine this season? To send his kids to school to education!! Yes that will help them survive famine! Take the case of Bihar. Look at all the National competitive exams from IITs, IASs etc. You will find tons of Biharis in top ranks. Probably as much, if not more, than from any other state. So why does Bihar still lag behind? Education by itself will mean nothing unless you provide a job at the end of it. In IT arenas I see tons of unqualified Andhrites and Tamilians who have cosher jobs(both at home and abroad) while an educated Bihari from a State Engineering college will have no jobs when he gets out. So probably now you would move from education to law and order lol. xxx

[Lurker]

Of all the landlords how many are self made and how many are landlords because of their lineage and past atrocities? I can atleast see some sense in abducting land from kings and zamindars who have 1000's of acres just cos they were born in their lineage, what about all the self made land lords? are you going to punish them for their entrepreneurship and ingenuity?

What is a self-made land lord I ask? Someone who has a big strip of land for an industrial purposes? In that case its a venture to give jobs to many people. But I have serious assertions about folks who are simply hogging large plot of land in the name of housing. Seriously how much is enough?? Why would a person need 10 house in 10 cities? Or have 10 acre of land in a busy cosmpolitan town. This when India is already struggling with a huge population and not enough land to support. Clearly every citizen has some duties toward his nation and not only rights.

Point 2, but IT workers do earn far lesser than what his compnay earns. The few and far between IT workers who get to take 70-80% of their billable rate, are not as common and they do undertake the inherent risk that they will be first ones to laid off. Also, their skillsets are the ones that give them confidence to barter and negotiate the higher rates in the first place.

Not really. IT, for example, has people who are generally paid fairly. A TCS, for example, will charge its client 60$/hr and probably pay 30$/hr to its employee. For an offshore resource they will charge 25-30$/hr and probably pay 10-15$/hr. This is just for example sake of course so please dont say someone else gets charged 120$ and gets paid only 10.

I can list two countries whose population density is much higher than India's, Hong Kong and South Korea where they dont face these problems. Japan's populatin density is very close to India and neither do they face this prblem, or in other words they have managed to solve this problem in some other way.

You do realize the example you gave are not remotely comparable to India. Hongkong, South Korea and Japan are extremely small nations(atleast when compared to India) and their geography makes them economically viable from the start. Look at any city close to the sea(including in India) and you will see how trade has flourished. The big cities - London, New York, Los Angeles, Mumbai, Shanghai, Singapore, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Seoul - have all been historically near waterfront, or very close to it. So thats criticism number 1. Secondly none of thse countries are as dependent on land as we are. Their GDP is driven by industrialization and frankly we are nowhere near that. It will take another 40-50 years to get India(entire India) to the place where HongKong is today. So what do we do for another 40 odd years?

It is for the each individual states to bend over backwards to invite industries into their states, Why do you think Orissa is being sidelined? The government has to provide the infrastructure.

Which is one of the things about Socialism that I like. It brings an all-around growth in the nation. Before 1990 it was okay for the entire nation to use Bihar-Jharkhand-Orissa-Bengal natural resources, suddenly circa 1990 it becomes the responsibility for these states to provide better infrastructure??? A good example would be Infosys, probably one of the best known Indian companies out there. They have been around for like 25 years or so, how many offices do they have in Eastern part of the country?? Atleast in "Socialist" India every state had something to be proud of. Even today many of the heaviest engineering companies are located in the very same area that are now classified as extremely poor. You will have to excuse me if I dont have a lot of sympathy for "modern" Indian giants. TATA is a different ball game of course. xxxx

[triam]

What is a self-made land lord I ask? Someone who has a big strip of land for an industrial purposes? In that case its a venture to give jobs to many people. But I have serious assertions about folks who are simply hogging large plot of land in the name of housing. Seriously how much is enough?? Why would a person need 10 house in 10 cities? Or have 10 acre of land in a busy cosmpolitan town. This when India is already struggling with a huge population and not enough land to support. Clearly every citizen has some duties toward his nation and not only rights. Not really. IT, for example, has people who are generally paid fairly. A TCS, for example, will charge its client 60$/hr and probably pay 30$/hr to its employee. For an offshore resource they will charge 25-30$/hr and probably pay 10-15$/hr. This is just for example sake of course so please dont say someone else gets charged 120$ and gets paid only 10. You do realize the example you gave are not remotely comparable to India. Hongkong, South Korea and Japan are extremely small nations(atleast when compared to India) and their geography makes them economically viable from the start. Look at any city close to the sea(including in India) and you will see how trade has flourished. The big cities - London, New York, Los Angeles, Mumbai, Shanghai, Singapore, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Seoul - have all been historically near waterfront, or very close to it. So thats criticism number 1. Secondly none of thse countries are as dependent on land as we are. Their GDP is driven by industrialization and frankly we are nowhere near that. It will take another 40-50 years to get India(entire India) to the place where HongKong is today. So what do we do for another 40 odd years? Which is one of the things about Socialism that I like. It brings an all-around growth in the nation. Before 1990 it was okay for the entire nation to use Bihar-Jharkhand-Orissa-Bengal natural resources, suddenly circa 1990 it becomes the responsibility for these states to provide better infrastructure???

So when everybody used Bihar-ORissa natural resources, werent Bihar and Orissa compensated for that?

A good example would be Infosys, probably one of the best known Indian companies out there. They have been around for like 25 years or so, how many offices do they have in Eastern part of the country?? Atleast in "Socialist" India every state had something to be proud of. Even today many of the heaviest engineering companies are located in the very same area that are now classified as extremely poor.

why are they poor then?

You will have to excuse me if I dont have a lot of sympathy for "modern" Indian giants. TATA is a different ball game of course. xxxx

On the contrary, Infosys was built from scratch by some energetic and entrepreneurial individuals, in the socialist India that would have never happened. The same Ambanis or the same Tatas would have done it. Why does Infosys need to do that? They pay a Bengali as much as a chennaite, if they discriminate based on that you have a case. The money they make and the wages they provide do trickle to every segment in the Indian society.

[ViruRulez]

Frankly I see nothing wrong with Socialism. Many of the best economies today are more Socialistic than Capitalistic in nature. Oddly enough Socialism has become a beating stick in India for reasons unknown to people.

Socialism is not the right type of government because it denies complete freedom to human which is an essential right which should be there for every human. And socialism is also not right because it is based on equal distribution irrespective of the amount of mental and physical work done by a person. A clever and hard working entrepreneur should obviously earn better than a lazy person who would never work hard or apply his brain. Yes there are some problems with democracy too but still it is the best without doubt.

You can pass laws but I already see religious people having problems with that, specially minorities. It is easy to pass such a law in Communistic China but in a country like ours where we pride in diversity of religion and culture it wont happen.

It will have opposition for sure and it is also undemocratic. But at the same time, I think if it is properly made clear to people that India would face serious problems in the long run if the increase in population is not curbed people would understand the law. Anyways some laws need to be done irrespective of the opposition.

Thats being a bit naieve I am afraid my friend. It kind of reminds me of a recent conversation I had. My parents(they live in Bihar) were speaking to me one day and my Mom mentioned how the summers were so serious that all rice crops died and the unexpected rains in winter also increased the chances of death of wheat crops. Our village folks who are dependent on Agriculture for sustenance are already worried about famine. I was having this discussion with a friend of mine who calmly said - Man you need education to combat this. It was so stunningly stupid that I did not know where to start to educate him. What do you say to a farmer whose family is expecting a famine this season? To send his kids to school to education!! Yes that will help them survive famine! Take the case of Bihar. Look at all the National competitive exams from IITs, IASs etc. You will find tons of Biharis in top ranks. Probably as much, if not more, than from any other state. So why does Bihar still lag behind? Education by itself will mean nothing unless you provide a job at the end of it. In IT arenas I see tons of unqualified Andhrites and Tamilians who have cosher jobs(both at home and abroad) while an educated Bihari from a State Engineering college will have no jobs when he gets out. So probably now you would move from education to law and order lol. xxx

You cannot suddenly change the weather or the natural calamities. The only thing to do is to take precautions to prevent much damage during natural calamities. But education on the other hand will improve the next generation of those people. Regarding the competence of Biharis, I agree that they top the exams. And they also get the best jobs. If you say that an IITian or a IAS does not get job just because he is a Bihari, I wont accept it. I have many friends from Bihar and they have got some of the best govt. jobs too leave apart private jobs. You will find Biharis in IT jobs in Bangalore, Delhi, Mumbai etc. too. But the reason you find lesser Biharis overall in IT etc. is because IT companies would never set their foot in Bihar etc. because of the law and order situation there. And Biharis have kept voting on for the corrupt leaders. But at the same time, there is also the people who are a lot to blame too. There are two very contrasting categories of people in Bihar - one group is the highly intellectual and educated people but the second group which is the majority is of goons and uneducated people only interested in violence etc. I have been through Bihar through train and believe me people are wary of even crossing through Bihar. Small students mob in even AC coaches of train and there have been incidents of even burning trains on not giving them free rides. And the small kids tease girls and harass people of even the AC coaches. I have seen it infront of my eyes and so I can assure you of the same. The mentality of the majority of Biharis is also one of the biggest problem where violence, dadagiri, goonda activities etc. are seen to be cool. People like Laloo etc. are to blame a lot and also the thakurs and other anti-social elements in Bihar. And caste system etc. is also big in Bihar (including even its capital city Patna) and there are whole lot of problems which is stopping Bihar from improving. The people of Bihar has to change the whole situation because nobody can change mentality. Bihar needs to move to the 21st century and realize we are not living 100 years ago and that can be changed through proper education. Education would solve a lot of problems if not every problem. At the same time, govt. should take steps to prevent the state problems like natural calamities, landlords, law and order etc.

[Lurker]

So when everybody used Bihar-ORissa natural resources, werent Bihar and Orissa compensated for that?

Of course they were not compensated. Most of the Coal, Iron and Steel and related industries were picking natural resources from the region and the states were not compensated because well it was all "Nation's" property afterall. I can still remember how most of these organizations had "Headquarters" in Calcutta which meant the revenue went to Bengal exchequer instead of the point of origin.

On the contrary, Infosys was built from scratch by some energetic and entrepreneurial individuals, in the socialist India that would have never happened. The same Ambanis or the same Tatas would have done it.

Why not? Even Infosys was built from scratch in the same Socialistic India(in mid 80s) as was TCS and Wipro. Ambanis were also prevalent back then. Just to clarify I am not suggesting Socialism but I am suggesting taking the good points of it, one of which was an all-around development. Current model being followed is leaving pockets of extreme riches and poverty and its for all to see. xx

[ViruRulez]

Not really. IT, for example, has people who are generally paid fairly. A TCS, for example, will charge its client 60$/hr and probably pay 30$/hr to its employee. For an offshore resource they will charge 25-30$/hr and probably pay 10-15$/hr. This is just for example sake of course so please dont say someone else gets charged 120$ and gets paid only 10.

Perhaps you are still not aware of the actual IT situation in India. I agree TCS and other big companies charges upto $60/hour from international clients but at the same time if you think that employees are paid $30/hr then it is not aligning with facts. Last year itself, I knew a lot of guys and gals I met who completed their engineering and were recruited by TCS. And the amount they were paid as freshers were between 15k-30k Indian Rupees per month depending on the salary negotiated and college reputation etc. (15k-30k INR ~ $300-$600/month) And I have not met them for many months but their recruitment date was indefinitely postponed due to the recession. I have great respect for TATA but if you say that the employees are paid a fair share by any corporate then it is simply not happening neither will it happen. :hatsoff:

[triam]

Of course they were not compensated. Most of the Coal, Iron and Steel and related industries were picking natural resources from the region and the states were not compensated because well it was all "Nation's" property afterall. I can still remember how most of these organizations had "Headquarters" in Calcutta which meant the revenue went to Bengal exchequer instead of the point of origin. Why not? Even Infosys was built from scratch in the same Socialistic India(in mid 80s) as was TCS and Wipro. Ambanis were also prevalent back then. Just to clarify I am not suggesting Socialism but I am suggesting taking the good points of it, one of which was an all-around development. Current model being followed is leaving pockets of extreme riches and poverty and its for all to see. xx

I agree with the last part, but I believe you are pointing fingers at the wrong group which in this case being private industries and upper middle class or upper class folks, the finger needs to be pointed at the government because they are the ones who take our taxes and dispose it as they deem fit. Where is the infrastructure? where are plans for improving/subsidizing agriculture and farmer situations in India? And relating to the first point" They were not compensated" I agree that is wrong and that should not continue, does it still happen?

[ViruRulez]

I agree with the last part, but I believe you are pointing fingers at the wrong group which in this case being private industries and upper middle class or upper class folks, the finger needs to be pointed at the government because they are the ones who take our taxes and dispose it as they deem fit. Where is the infrastructure? where are plans for improving/subsidizing agriculture and farmer situations in India? And relating to the first point" They were not compensated" I agree that is wrong and that should not continue, does it still happen?

The one good step which can give proper platform for the government to solve the problem is the UIDAI (Unique Identification Number in India similar to SSN in US). This will help the govt. to know the earnings and other details of all Indians. This would also help in identifying the poorer sections of society so that any law passed can be properly implemented. At present the corruption is such that even if a step is taken it cannot be worked out properly. The CEO of Infosys Nandan M. Nilekani has been made the head of the UID project and they have promised to start giving out UIDs starting from 2011. Hope that they can do it properly because it will also help in getting out tax properly and just manner from the tax payers. At the same time it will help out in implementing the policies properly so that the poorer class and thereby poorer states are given priority in development and corruption does not take away the allocated funds. But I still have doubt if all these things can be properly implemented without fraud and corruption. Regarding govt. apathy there was a serious problem in the first few decades of independence where regionalism was prevailing and smaller and less important states were not given proper funds while all the natural resources were taken by the govt. But the situation has changed a lot nowadays though not completely.

[zubinpepsi]

Arundhati Roy is such a b.itch.. i think the govt shud lock her up in jail for supporting terrorism and savage her.. What Muslims were to BJP, Maoists are to Congress: Arundhati Roy PTI 25 October 2009, 02:30pm ISTPrint Email Discuss Bookmark/Share Save Comment Text Size: | NEW DELHI: Supporting unconditional talks with the Maoists, Booker prize winner and activist Arundhati Roy has alleged that "economic interests" in mineral-rich states have driven the government and establishment to launch action against them. "My fear is that because of this economic interest the government and establishment actually needs a war. It needs to militarise. For that it needs an enemy. And so in a way what the Muslims were to BJP, the Maoists are to Congress...," Roy said in an interview to a TV news channel. When asked about the talks between the government and left wing extremists, she said, "There should be unconditional talks with the Maoists. "If I was a person who is being dispossessed, whose wife has been raped, who is being pushed of their land and who is being faced with this 'police force', I would say that I am justified in taking up arms. If that is the only way I have to defend myself," she said when asked whether armed struggle was justified. "We should stop thinking about who is justified...You have an army of very poor people being faced down by an army of rich that are corporate-backed. I am sorry but it is like that. So you can't extract morality from the heinous act of violence that each commits against the other," she said.

[Sachinism]

Any chance someone could do a quick break down of the whole situation in bullet points please.

[Sachinism]

India Maoist rebels kill 24 troops in West Bengal At least 24 troops were killed when armed Maoists attacked a camp of the paramilitary forces in India's West Bengal state, officials said. Nearly 50 rebels on motorcycles encircled the camp of the Eastern Frontier Rifles (ERF) at Silda village on Monday and started firing on it. More fighters joined the assault on foot, firing from automatic weapons. More than 6,000 people have died during the rebels' 20-year fight for communist rule in many Indian states. The Indian government recently began a major offensive against the rebels in several states. Indian Prime minister Manmohan Singh has described the Maoist insurgency as India's "greatest internal security challenge". The rebels now have a presence in 223 of India's 600-odd districts. Landmines The camp was overrun by the Maoists after the troops put up brief initial resistance, district magistrate of West Midnapore district NS Nigam told the BBC. "The Maoists then burnt down the camp and planted landmines on the entire length of the road leading to the camp. Reinforcements with night vision and anti-landmine vehicles reached the camp late at night," Mr Nigam said. At least 24 bodies have been recovered from in and around the camp and some of them are badly charred, he said. The seriously injured troops were being taken to the state capital, Calcutta, for treatment. Officials said at least 12 soldiers were still missing. It took four hours for reinforcements to reached Silda as there were landmines planted on the entire stretch of the road. Police officials leading the reinforcements that reached Silda late at night said many of the paramilitary troops were shot dead by the rebels as they tried to escape the fire. West Bengal's police chief Bhupinder Singh said there were nearly 50 ERF troops in the camp when the attack took place. The Maoists pulled out of Silda after looting a huge amount of weapons from the camp's armoury. Chief of the rebels' military wing, Koteswara Rao - alias Kishenji - claimed responsibility for the attack. He said this attack was the beginning of "Operation Peace Hunt", the Maoist answer to the government "Operation Green Hunt" launched against the Maoists recently. "We are looking for peace but we are forced to fight and kill the poor troops of the government forces. We will mourn the death of those killed but the government is responsible for their death," Kishenji told the BBC by phone from an undisclosed location. The Maoist leader warned of more such attacks unless Operation Green Hunt was stopped. Earlier this month Home Minister P Chidambaram held a meeting of four Maoist-affected states - West Bengal, Jharkhand, Bihar and Orissa - in Calcutta. He threatened to intensify Operation Green Hunt if the rebels did not start talks by abjuring violence. The Maoists said they would agree to talks if four of their senior leaders now in jail were released and Operation Green Hunt was halted. The government has not responded to that conditional overture. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8517371.stm

[suma25]

When Gadchiroli Collector Atul Patne and his predecessor Niranjankumar Sudhanshu accept a special medal from Prime Minister Manmohan Singh tomorrow in New Delhi for their NREGA performance, they will rebut a widely held belief that good government work can't be done in Naxal-affected areas, a belief that's often used as an alibi for inaction. Gadchiroli, which became the biggest hotspot in the Red Corridor in 2009 with three police ambushes killing 55 policemen, is among the 24 districts in the country and only the second in Maharashtra to win the honour along with Aurangabad. This tribal district - 78 percent of its land covered with thick forest - is the first in Maharashtra to successfully implement NREGA's social audit through 61 NGOs. Sudhanshu evolved a model of a "Gramrojgarsevak" who would get 0.5 per cent of total work amount of the village plus Rs 400 per month to encourage him to get more demand for work from the village. It was later adopted across the state. And unlike in other districts, people here don't come with demand for work due to fear of Naxals. So the administration takes the work to them. During his tenure, vigilance committees, which ensure transparency, were set up in all gram panchayats (GPs). Under Patne, Gadchiroli became the first district in the state to issue smart cards to beneficiaries. Patne, who worked overtime to give a record 5,000 land pattas in one day on Republic Day as promised by district Guardian Minister R R Patil, started issuing receipts for the work, mentioning the work done and payment received "so the beneficiary has a record in black and white." This was another first by Gadchiroli. Patne also innovatively gave employment guarantee to those given land pattas for work to improve their own fields. Interestingly, some of the best work done in the district is in areas dominated by Naxals. For example, in Etapalli tahsil, Naxals had tried to set up Janatana Sarkar (people's government) in 2008. The police got nearly 50 Naxal cadres from 11 villages to surrender to foil the bid. Except for the hardcore Kotmi village, which doesn't have a gram panchayat for the last 10 years allegedly due to a Naxal diktat, the administration has been able to take NREGS to almost all villages. Parsalgondi, the first village next to the BRO-built bridge on Bandia river, stands testimony to the turning of the tide. In 2006, BRO lost its daredevil engineer N Ganesan to Naxal violence after Ganesan refused to stop bridge work. The bridge not only connected the 60-odd villages - which remained cut off for at least five months during the rains - to Etapalli but also helped clear the way for more government work. Villagers say Naxals aren't opposed to work that benefit villagers. "They generally oppose road and bridge work because they feel that helps the police," they say. Of late, however, villagers have been getting Naxals to agree to bridge work. BRO has just completed another bridge about 12 km beyond the one over Bandia. And work is on for a village reservoir at Jivangatta where 50 people have been working for the past 15 days.

http://naxalwatch.blogspot.com/2010/02/from-naxal-bastion-nrega-success-story.html