Is there a reason why Sreesanth should be picked again?

[Ram]

Nutritional' date=' yes. Not physiological or racial as evidenced by Sami and Amir.[/quote'] So lets say someone were to conduct a research where a group of 1000 twelve year Nepalis and 1000 twelve year Australians who all had interests in fast bowling were picked. Both the group of kids are given the exact same type of diet/nutrition/nurture for the next 10 years, along with the EXACT same methods of training in fast bowling. After 10 years, when all the boys are 22, according to you, is the probability of finding a genuine quick in the Nepali group is almost similar to that of the Aussie group? (and) If we were pick the top 10 quickest boys in each group and take their average speeds, in your opinion, will the the speeds of that Nepali group would be same as that of the Aussis group?

[The Outsider]

So lets say someone were to conduct a research where a group of 1000 twelve year Nepalis and 1000 twelve year Australians who all had interests in fast bowling were picked. Both the group of kids are given the exact same type of diet/nutrition/nurture for the next 10 years, along with the EXACT same methods of training in fast bowling. After 10 years, when all the boys are 22, according to you, is the probability of finding a genuine quick in the Nepali group is almost similar to that of the Aussie group? (and) If we were pick the top 10 quickest boys in each group and take their average speeds, in your opinion, will the the speeds of that Nepali group would be same as that of the Aussis group?

Yes, because fast bowling according to me, has got frack all to do with built and genes. It's about developing the right muscles and techniques early enough in life to bowl fast. Tape ball is a huge reason why Pakistan produces so many bowlers who bowl fast. If you have ever bowled with a tape ball you will realize the importance of bowling fast with it - it swings when bowled fast and does not at a lower speed. Now your next question will be why does Australia or South Africa produce quick bowlers despite not playing with a tape ball? The hard and bouncy pitches demand that kind of bowling. England is from the same race and has hardly produced any fast bowler in it's history except the likes of Flintoff who spent more time on a hospital bed than a cricket field. New Zealand is full of goras - the only fast bowler they produced played a grand total of 20 test matches!

[Dhondy]

Nature v Nurture. Darwin v Lamarck. The old argument. Shwetabh is being deliberately obtuse. Notice how he asked for research to back up genetics in cricket, but didn't ask for evidence of the effect of genetics among races. He knows there's plenty of the latter, none of the former. No mention of course of the requirement for research to support the role of flat pitches on injuries, which was his contention. So, research needed to support one POV, but not the other. Yes? And then, Sami's example cited as a model for Pakistani longevity, completely ignoring the crucial question: How many 5 day matches, i.e. Tests has he played in a decade? Indeed, how many ODIs has he played? Mention made of Aamer. Aamer? Career less than a year old, already injured after one Test in Australia. Let's watch that speed drop over the next few years, shall we? Notice, no mention of Shoaib Akhtar, Mo Zahid who fell to injuries. Instead Brett Lee and Bond mentioned to support lack of racial differences among fast bowlers. This is what I meant about opportunistic pseudo-science. Such debates serve no purpose, certainly not science.

[Dhondy]

Yes' date=' because fast bowling according to me, has got frack all to do with built and genes. [/quote'] Stopped reading there.

[Bumper]

If Sreesanth is chucked out who else can replace him ? He is simply India's 3rd best seamer. RP Singh, Irfan Pathan et al have only flattered to deceive. They perform well in one or two tests and then go off the boil. I dont think we have anyone else to consistently challenge Sreesanth's test spot.

[The Outsider]

Nature v Nurture. Darwin v Lamarck. The old argument. Shwetabh is being deliberately obtuse. Notice how he asked for research to back up genetics in cricket, but didn't ask for evidence of the effect of genetics among races. He knows there's plenty of the latter, none of the former. No mention of course of the requirement for research to support the role of flat pitches on injuries, which was his contention. So, research needed to support one POV, but not the other. Yes? And then, Sami's example cited as a model for Pakistani longevity, completely ignoring the crucial question: How many 5 day matches, i.e. Tests has he played in a decade? Indeed, how many ODIs has he played? Mention made of Aamer. Aamer? Career less than a year old, already injured after one Test in Australia. Let's watch that speed drop over the next few years, shall we? Notice, no mention of Shoaib Akhtar, Mo Zahid who fell to injuries. Instead Brett Lee and Bond mentioned to support lack of racial differences among fast bowlers. This is what I meant about opportunistic pseudo-science. Such debates serve no purpose, certainly not science.

The difference, Dhondy, is that I don't go crying about my expertise being challenged if someone calls my opinion garbage, as it may well be. Very convenient of you to pick out Sami and Amir for which you could cook up arguments against at the drop of your hat. Let's hear what you have to say about Akram, Imran, and Waqar all of whom bowled in the upper 80s to mid 90s for most of their careers. Sure, they had their share of injuries but any more than Bond, Flintoff, Lillee, or Thompson? You'll have to be intellectually dishonest to answer yes to that question.

[Ram]

ow your next question will be why does Australia or South Africa produce quick bowlers despite not playing with a tape ball? The hard and bouncy pitches demand that kind of bowling. England is from the same race and has hardly produced any fast bowler in it's history except the likes of Flintoff who spent more time on a hospital bed than a cricket field. New Zealand is full of goras - the only fast bowler they produced played a grand total of 20 test matches!

I am not too sure about that. There's no statistical evidence to suggest that White/Aussie/South African fast bowlers get injured any more than Asian quicks. Besides, to claim that countries like Eng, South Africa, Australia produce a lot of quicks, simply because the pitches there aide fast bowling also seems a bit shaky to me. And of course, there's this entirely un-debated question of population - How does a teeny-weeny nation like New Zealand consistently manage to produce reasonable quicks who are quite nippy? (Shane Bond, Geoff Allott, Ian Butler, Southee, Ian O Brien'). I dont think merely nutritional aspects alone can justify that. You gotto have a gene-pool that should at least in some minor ways, be conducive to the production of fast bowlers.

[The Outsider]

Besides, to claim that countries like Eng, South Africa, Australia produce a lot of quicks, simply because the pitches there aide fast bowling also seems a bit shaky to me. And of course, there's this entirely un-debated question of population - How does a teeny-weeny nation like New Zealand consistently manage to produce reasonable quicks who are quite nippy? (Shane Bond, Geoff Allott, Ian Butler, Southee, Ian O Brien'). I dont think merely nutritional aspects alone can justify that. You gotto have a gene-pool that should at least in some minor ways, be conducive to the production of fast bowlers.

Yeah, and keep on believing that pitches play no role in the fact that England and West Indies have not produced any world class spinner since the pitches ceased to be covered? You are clutching at straws when you start mentioning the likes of Bond for your argument, someone who has been permanently consigned to the hospital bed after playing 20 odd tests in his career despite his superior white genes suitable for fast bowling.

[Mr. Wicket]

Nature v Nurture. Darwin v Lamarck. The old argument. Shwetabh is being deliberately obtuse. Notice how he asked for research to back up genetics in cricket, but didn't ask for evidence of the effect of genetics among races. He knows there's plenty of the latter, none of the former. No mention of course of the requirement for research to support the role of flat pitches on injuries, which was his contention. So, research needed to support one POV, but not the other. Yes? And then, Sami's example cited as a model for Pakistani longevity, completely ignoring the crucial question: How many 5 day matches, i.e. Tests has he played in a decade? Indeed, how many ODIs has he played? Mention made of Aamer. Aamer? Career less than a year old, already injured after one Test in Australia. Let's watch that speed drop over the next few years, shall we? Notice, no mention of Shoaib Akhtar, Mo Zahid who fell to injuries. Instead Brett Lee and Bond mentioned to support lack of racial differences among fast bowlers. This is what I meant about opportunistic pseudo-science. Such debates serve no purpose, certainly not science.

Dhondy, What about other particularly injury-prone quick bowlers from other countries though that you've left out? From the WI lot of the last few years; Jerome Taylor, Fidel Edwards, Tino Best and Jermaine Lawson all stand out as quicks who really suffered from injuries. Similarly there are plenty of other seriously quick guys from other countries - Brett Schultz from RSA, who in his brief prime was blazingly fast [and at least on TV came across as even quicker than a Shoaib or Sami], Simon Jones, Hadlee who had to cut his pace down and change his style completely to protect his body, Jason Gillespie, Bruce Reid and Craig McDermott (not to mention other not as quick but as/more injury-prone guys like Jo Angel and Damien Fleming) from Aus... all I can surmise from that is that fast bowling is something that takes a serious toll on a lot of bodies and there've been plenty of players from all areas succumbing to it. But I don't see how there's a larger number of Indian/Pakistani bowlers dropping down at that pace compared to their South African, Aussie or West Indian counterparts. (Heck, Bruce Reid and Damien Fleming had some of the worst injury records of any cricketers I can remember... tragic in both cases as they had the talent to be genuinely lethal bowlers.)

[Dhondy]

The difference' date=' Dhondy, is that I don't go crying about my expertise being challenged if someone calls my opinion garbage, as it may well be. Very convenient of you to pick out Sami and Amir for which you could cook up arguments against at the drop of your hat. Let's hear what you have to say about Akram, Imran, and Waqar all of whom bowled in the upper 80s to mid 90s for most of their careers. Sure, they had their share of injuries but any more than Bond, Flintoff, Lillee, or Thompson? You'll have to be intellectually dishonest to answer yes to that question.[/quote'] I mentioned Wasim & Waqar in my posts, and indeed acknowledged that all fast bowlers are at risk of injury because fast bowling itself is unphysiological- please check the thread. The effect is magnified with South Asians- my contention was that the effect was due to certain racial differences, yours that it was a pitch issue. I never refuted the latter, why should I- I don't have the evidence one way or other. You were rather brave in calling everything but your own theory rubbish. That was the issue. What alarmed me was that you know perfectly well that ethnic differences exist- what else would explain our lack of track and field medals where some of the poorest African nations prosper- yet you chose to ignore that as a possible cause of our fast bowling penury. How can you be so certain?

[Dhondy]

Dhondy, What about other particularly injury-prone quick bowlers from other countries though that you've left out? From the WI lot of the last few years; Jerome Taylor, Fidel Edwards, Tino Best and Jermaine Lawson all stand out as quicks who really suffered from injuries. Similarly there are plenty of other seriously quick guys from other countries - Brett Schultz from RSA, who in his brief prime was blazingly fast [and at least on TV came across as even quicker than a Shoaib or Sami], Simon Jones, Hadlee who had to cut his pace down and change his style completely to protect his body, Jason Gillespie, Bruce Reid and Craig McDermott (not to mention other not as quick but as/more injury-prone guys like Jo Angel and Damien Fleming) from Aus... all I can surmise from that is that fast bowling is something that takes a serious toll on a lot of bodies and there've been plenty of players from all areas succumbing to it. But I don't see how there's a larger number of Indian/Pakistani bowlers dropping down at that pace compared to their South African, Aussie or West Indian counterparts. (Heck, Bruce Reid and Damien Fleming had some of the worst injury records of any cricketers I can remember... tragic in both cases as they had the talent to be genuinely lethal bowlers.)

Thal, this was my first post on that thread.

Sustained fast bowling is unphysiological and will lead to injuries unless you have the fitness of an Olympic decathlete like Mitch Johnson. You can't do it, period. Either you drop your speed, or you abbreviate your career like the Shoaib Akhtars, the Brett Lees (that, and coming up against Sehwag), the Mo Zahids, the Shaun Taits (another Sehwag victim- what is it with him and phaast bowlers?). Mohammad Aamer will go the same way, just as the night follows the day...unless he drops his speed. The really intelligent bowlers know this, and focus on accuracy and movement. McGrath mastered it, Asif, despite being the despicable drug cheat that he is, lives the principle and Zaheer has made it into an art form.

Later, I mentioned genetic differences to explain why Indian speedsters dropped their pace so consistently after a couple of years. The debate then morphed into pitch conditions v genetics. My protest was against the latter being deemed completely inconsequential. I don't think it represents a sensible POV.

[Ram]

Doc has a valid point here. Shwetabh keeps mentioning that the flat pitches of the subcontinent is the primary reason why our bowlers break down and lose pace. Where is the evidence to prove that claim?

[Dhondy]

And yes, I took my professional status as granted, but only because of the mutual respect we have had for each other's erudition over many years. I have always taken your word on Physics/ Maths as gospel and assumed that you did so for medical science related issues. I was a bit shell-shocked initially at your bellicosity, but am OK now. Ultimately, all message board careers come to a sticky end. That's the nature of the beast.

[The Outsider]

I mentioned Wasim & Waqar in my posts, and indeed acknowledged that all fast bowlers are at risk of injury because fast bowling itself is unphysiological- please check the thread. The effect is magnified with South Asians- my contention was that the effect was due to certain racial differences, yours that it was a pitch issue. I never refuted the latter, why should I- I don't have the evidence one way or other. You were rather brave in calling everything but your own theory rubbish. That was the issue. What alarmed me was that you know perfectly well that ethnic differences exist- what else would explain our lack of track and field medals where some of the poorest African nations prosper- yet you chose to ignore that as a possible cause of our fast bowling penury. How can you be so certain?

And I don't agree or subscribe to the view that the effect is magnified on South Asians. I gave and will give again numerous examples of bowlers like Lee, Clark, and Gillespie who had their careers finished off after bowling for a few months on these unforgiving pitches. On the contrary you have examples of bowlers like Ishant, Sreesanth, and Amir who register a pace hike after bowling on the pitches in Australia just for a month. I am not well versed with track and field and the role genetics play in that regard, but I have seen enough fast bowling in my life to form a pretty well grounded opinion that bowling fast has little to do with genetics and is majorly influenced by developing the right muscles and action early enough in your life.

[The Outsider]

And yes, I took my professional status as granted, but only because of the mutual respect we have had for each other's erudition over many years. I have always taken your word on Physics/ Maths as gospel and assumed that you did so for medical science related issues. I was a bit shell-shocked initially at your bellicosity, but am OK now. Ultimately, all message board careers come to a sticky end. That's the nature of the beast.

If you recall that thread I insisted that I respect your professional opinion and if you know something on the subject by virtue of your professional training that I don't please share it, for I claim to keep an open mind. As I said earlier in the thread an argument along the lines of I am an expert and you should take my word for it is the last one I would use. Even now, I would want to learn something about the correlation between Indian genes and fast bowling if you are willing to share it.

[The Outsider]

You just have to look at the fat slobs pitching in Baseball at 95+ mph to realize the futility of the argument behind genes and the perfect body being the secret behind bowling/pitching phaasht.

[cowboysfan]

BCCI has some blame in this,knowing Sree's injury history they still picked him for meaningless odi's which he could have well avoided.I want him to be fit for the south african tests.A rested and fresh Sree can be a match winner.

[thevortex]

I mentioned Wasim & Waqar in my posts, and indeed acknowledged that all fast bowlers are at risk of injury because fast bowling itself is unphysiological- please check the thread. The effect is magnified with South Asians- my contention was that the effect was due to certain racial differences, yours that it was a pitch issue. I never refuted the latter, why should I- I don't have the evidence one way or other. You were rather brave in calling everything but your own theory rubbish. That was the issue. What alarmed me was that you know perfectly well that ethnic differences exist- what else would explain our lack of track and field medals where some of the poorest African nations prosper- yet you chose to ignore that as a possible cause of our fast bowling penury. How can you be so certain?

I agree with you, Dhondy. But pray consider that this need not be the only issue confronting us now. I had earlier made a post in this thread about my concerns about the flagging pace of the youngsters coming up from India alone. This does not appear to be a problem with bowlers in the Indian subcontinent per se. So, this has to go beyond genetics and into the realm of human choice and whims - such as they are. That was my contention. What do you think? ________ properties in Pattaya

[thevortex]

You just have to look at the fat slobs pitching in Baseball at 95+ mph to realize the futility of the argument behind genes and the perfect body being the secret behind bowling/pitching phaasht.

I am surprised at this statement, Outsider. Fat or not, those slobs are strong. And they can throw the ball at that speed for a considerable length of time - continuously. Do you figure our cricketers can do that? Even Australian ones? Very few probably could do that. These are different sports requiring different mechanics. Plus baseball does not require honed athletes fit to run the Olympic 100 metres to do the pitching. They need stamina, strength and accuracy more than anything else. It is no joke to repeatedly throw the baseball at that speed over that distance. In many ways it is more stressful than bowling in cricket - to the human shoulder. I am no doctor, but I would take the liberty to presume that baseball probably is more injurious to the human shoulder and elbow joints than cricket bowling. Cricket probably compensates in bringing possibilities of injuries to ankle, foot and knee joints owing to the running in motion of fast bowlers especially. Net, net - the paunch alone is no argument that genetics is not involved. Of course it is. Do you think India can compete and beat top teams/individuals in, say, basketball or 100m sprinting? Maybe in the next generation - who knows? Right now, no chance. And yes, there is a lot of genetics involved. And its not just genetics. It is also physiology and metabolism. We eat, think and live differently. A consequence of not just genetics but culture. No wonder we are all different and excel in different areas. Just my two rupees. ________ Vapir vapormatic

[thevortex]

Minor correction - my earlier post on Indian bowlers losing pace was not in this thread but the other one titled somewhat like 'Why Indian bowlers lose pace?'. ________ MistressVivian live