M.F. Hussain accepts Qatar citizenship

[Lurker]

Where did I accuse you of that ? All I said is that your ideology quite nicely lines up with that of the mods.

I have no intention of making this about you-me but frankly what am I, or other like me, supposed to do about that? All things considered you know MODS better, and longer, than I do. So how does it help to keep nagging about my thought process, or theirs. Arent you better served taking this with them?

Your definition of liberalism is based on how hard you can come down on Hindu conservatives and their ideology while making every and all attempt to make sure that the sensitivities of the ROP are never compromised. You will watch silently when rules are bent to suit that agenda. Heck you dont even have the intellectual honesty to answers some of the icky and annoying questions that I badger you with persistently. One such incident stares at you right here in this thread. And FWIW ... I feel if you were one among the mods your actions wouldnt be any different. Hence my claim of hypocrysy.

Really? How many Muslim conservatives are here that need to be "came down upon". There are more than few Hindu conservatives, you included, and so you see me in your face often. As for annoying and irking question, I dont intend to keep going in circles. There have been instances where we have both delivered 100s of post inside a single thread and reached nowhere at the end. Why would I want to keep doing that?? A good stimulating discussion is always welcome, which is why we both end up debating regularly. However when it reaches the same-old-same-old I dont want any of it. Anyway I just wanted to clarify. As I said earlier dont mean to derail this into me-you discussion

[The Outsider]

You missed my point. I am not defending his art; am saying that MFH and his art are irrelevant and do not warrant as much attention as we are giving him here. As a nation' date=' we have more important things to worry about.[/quote'] I don't necessarily agree with that - a nation's growth and stature is not an should not be limited to a few select areas. One could very well argue even against sports, movie, and literature in that context. I would go to the extent of saying that is the very thinking which makes students opt for only the science fields even if they are interested in other things at a very early age in India under pressure from parents. M.F. Hussain is one of the most famous artists at the world stage and I am proud of his accomplishments as I am of Rushdie's and Vishwanathan Anand's.

[Lurker]

I just cannot fathom the emotion for or against MFH. The man is an artist, nothing more. Art does not feed people, art does not educate, art does nothing for anyone but the artist. A luxury. Does it really matter if the art originates in Delhi or Doha? Now, if there ever is a day when Prof. APJ Abdul Kalam or Prof Yash Pal decide to defect, one must get riled up and ask why.

I think you are talking of exact opposite mate. Some of India's best brains have been fleeing for decades now. Maybe not Abdul Kalaam but so many others. In fact many of them proudly declare themselves to be not "Indian" anymore, including last year Noble laureate whose name beats me now. On the other hand artists thus far had not done so(folks like Ravi Shankar not withstanding). By and large Indian artists have remained in India. If MFH's moving away is anyway related to freedom of expression, or lack thereof, we do have a big problem at hand. xx

[triam]

BB what is the question can you give me the post number or restate the qn here?

[The Outsider]

Now loonies from the other end of the spectrum : http://beta.thehindu.com/news/states/karnataka/article124395.ece

Shimoga and Hassan cities witnessed widespread violence on Monday following protests by Muslim organisations against the publication of an article in the Sunday magazine section of a Kannada daily. The article is a translation of an essay by Bangladeshi writer Tasleema Nasreen on the wearing of the burkha by Muslim women, and contains remarks that could be considered religiously insensitive and provocative. Shimoga was by far the worst affected. The protests spiralled out of control resulting in the death of two persons, one of them in police firing. Several persons were injured and there was large-scale destruction of property in different parts of the city. Police reports stated that at least 15 two-wheelers, three autorickshaws and a large number of shops in the main market areas were set on fire. It is stated that three persons with bullet wounds were admitted to the McGann Hospital in a serious condition. A person manning a telephone booth on Nehru Road was seriously injured when a petrol bomb was thrown at him. He was admitted to the private hospital in a serious condition. Reporters and photographers were at the receiving end of angry protesters who pelted stones injuring several of them seriously.The situation in Shimoga continues to be tense despite imposition of a curfew and prohibitory orders under Section 144 of the Criminal Procedure Code. Schools closed The police were taken by surprise by the sudden eruption of violence and could not bring the situation under control immediately as the force was inadequate. The city continues to be tense. Schools and colleges have been ordered to be closed tomorrow as a precautionary measure. In Hassan too the district administration clamped Section 144 in the city for three days following the outbreak of violence, with schools and colleges, and the weekly market closed on Tuesday.

Of course I expect all out support from posters here for these protesters who are so agitated about M.F. Hussain's paintings in the interest of not coming out as hypocrites... :giggle:

[punjabi_khota]

Now loonies from the other end of the spectrum : http://beta.thehindu.com/news/states/karnataka/article124395.ece Of course I expect all out support from posters here for these protesters who are so agitated about M.F. Hussain's paintings in the interest of not coming out as hypocrites... :giggle:

1). So far in this thread, no one on this board has supported any kind of violence regarding the outrage. 2). I think you are missing a very important point: In both Rushdie and Taslima's case, they have written against their own (maybe former) religion, while in MF Hussain's case, the so called outrage/defamation is of religion other than his own. Dunno if anyone mentioned it, but I believe this is very important distinction. This doesn't justify the death threats obviously, but I think this is how the society works. a black guy (lets a leader) critisizing the black commuity for being lazy/crime-infested will be tolerated better than a white guy doing so.

[The Outsider]

1). So far in this thread, no one on this board has supported any kind of violence regarding the outrage.

But many have opposed, the "exile" of Rushdie and Taslima Nasreen and supported Hussain's exile. Taslima is not even an Indian citizen to start off with. India offered her refuge for a few years.

2). I think you are missing a very important point: In both Rushdie and Taslima's case, they have written against their own (maybe former) religion, while in MF Hussain's case, the so called outrage/defamation is of religion other than his own. Dunno if anyone mentioned it, but I believe this is very important distinction. This doesn't justify the death threats obviously, but I think this is how the society works. a black guy (lets a leader) critisizing the black commuity for being lazy/crime-infested will be tolerated better than a white guy doing so.

That's an extremely lame line of argument and to be expected from ones who are not educated or belong to the mob mentality of the protesters. I thought we were discussing the message and not the messenger. Even so, if some Hindu were to draw nude images like M.F. Hussain do you think Shiv Sena would ignore it or the ones on this board opposing it, would say, yeah it's fine because it was done by a Hindu? In fact, we can direct the question right here to the likes of Seedhi, yoda etc. and ask them if they would be cool if those images were drawn by a Hindu?

[triam]

BB, very long post (almost CC'esque) went through the posts you mentioned. I am summarizing my thoughts (may coincide with others or may not but I just wanted to state this and get it out of my head). Ok, let me elucidate my side of this argument in this thread. Is MF Hussain an unbiased neutral guy? Maybe, who knows, it doesnt matter to me. Did he hurt the sentiments of a particular segment of the society? Yes definitely. Do the hurt segment have a right to voice their opinion and criticisms? Yes definitely. Are the people who are criticizing MF Hussain hypocritical? Yes, if they supported Rushdie or the Danish cartoonists, no if they were against those guys too. The people who belong to the latter category of the earlier question, do I have any problems with them? Yes, I do, I think getting your sentiments hurt by a third party and thereby trying to curtail the rights of the third party to do or don’t do something is a dangerous and slippery slope to get into, because anything you do or say can hurt a particular segment of the population. So either ban expression of any and all ideas and opinions or don’t ban any at all. Just because this particular issue is about religion does not make it sacrosanct. Do I believe MF Hussain is a great artist? No, I don’t get art, so I don’t know if he is great or not, before this discussion I knew about him as a controversial figure wrt to Dixit and these pictures, but didn’t see any of these pictures before. Do I believe India lost something because MF Hussain migrated to Qatar? Don’t know, because I do not know the reasons of why MF migrated, if he just wanted to move to Qatar for personal or monetary reasons it is his personal preference, on the other hand if he was indirectly forced to move out of the country because of either violence or frivolous lawsuits, then yes India as a country failed in its duty to protect the rights of one of its citizenry. Do I believe India as a country and government is biased towards any particular religion? I think the real answer is, India as a country and its polity are biased towards might. Meaning, whoever creates a ruckus about issues wins, be it banning satanic verses or banning Da Vinci code or in this case Hussain. Is there any difference between Hindu conservatives, Muslim conservatives and or Christian conservatives within India? There used to be in that Hindu conservatives didn’t know how to use the might angle before, but now are getting better at it. (This thread is not about terrorism, so I am not taking that angle, if it is indeed about terrorism of course, Islam radical movements do exist and they are in a totally different level to what Christian or Hindu conservatives are and NO I am not equating RSS to Taliban). Is that a problem to me? Not really, only alarming thing is the number of conservatives who knows how to use “might” has increased so that concerns me. Do I differentiate in my apathy between religions? Yes I do, Abrahamic religions especially Christianity and Islam are too in the face, with their conversions shtick and their voluble conservative base, so I dislike them the most. On the other end of the spectrum, Buddhism and Jainism and some other stuff like humanism etc are not in the face and lie low, and their followers seem to be content in keeping their religion private so I don’t have any big problem with that religion or its followers. Where does Hinduism fall into the spectrum? Hinduism used to be closer to Buddhism and Jainism in that the conservative agenda was followed by a very small percentage and it was not too in the face. This is changing, big time, and yes that concerns me as an anti-religious person. Do I think that’s the way to go for a religion to succeed? Maybe, since I am a very cynical person, I do agree with you for Hinduism to succeed (here I define success by the number of followers, I don’t really see what else is there to succeed in the religious world) I guess that the Hindu conservative base will need to get more aggressive to hold on to their numbers and increase them. Does this concern me? Yes it does, because I dislike fundamentals of any religion and by going down this path the total number of conservative fundamentals increase. Finally, I support freedom of speech, and I am against political correctness. To quote one of the most famous agnostics “In all ages hypocrites, called priests, have put crowns on the heads of thieves, called kings.” And this is why I am concerned with the growing influence of fundamental religious people and their involvement with the actual government. Hopefully this long diatribe explains my position well to you, I am willing to debate or argue about any of these points with you or anyone else.

[coffee_rules]

But many have opposed, the "exile" of Rushdie and Taslima Nasreen and supported Hussain's exile. Taslima is not even an Indian citizen to start off with. India offered her refuge for a few years. That's an extremely lame line of argument and to be expected from ones who are not educated or belong to the mob mentality of the protesters. I thought we were discussing the message and not the messenger. Even so, if some Hindu were to draw nude images like M.F. Hussain do you think Shiv Sena would ignore it or the ones on this board opposing it, would say, yeah it's fine because it was done by a Hindu? In fact, we can direct the question right here to the likes of Seedhi, yoda etc. and ask them if they would be cool if those images were drawn by a Hindu?

It will not be 'cool', but definitely the outrage from the majority Hindus would not be this extreme. There are a lot of writers who have written controversial stuff, who happen to be hindu, but none are facing the same opposition that MoFo is facing. He should keep his 'freedeom of expression' to his own religion and not bother about others'.

[Kohum]

1). So far in this thread, no one on this board has supported any kind of violence regarding the outrage. 2). I think you are missing a very important point: In both Rushdie and Taslima's case, they have written against their own (maybe former) religion, while in MF Hussain's case, the so called outrage/defamation is of religion other than his own. Dunno if anyone mentioned it, but I believe this is very important distinction. This doesn't justify the death threats obviously, but I think this is how the society works. a black guy (lets a leader) critisizing the black commuity for being lazy/crime-infested will be tolerated better than a white guy doing so.

PK thank you for point No.2 I was about to write the same. Point NO. 1 should have been a no brainer :giggle:

[seedhi]

But many have opposed' date=' the "exile" of Rushdie and Taslima Nasreen and supported Hussain's exile. Taslima is not even an Indian citizen to start off with. India offered her refuge for a few years.[/quote']The fact is that Hussain's exile is self imposed. He could have very well stayed back. I, and the other posters here, are happy that Hussain is out of the country of his own volition. That does not amount to supporting violence against him.

[seedhi]

Even so' date=' if some Hindu were to draw nude images like M.F. Hussain do you think Shiv Sena would ignore it or the ones on this board opposing it, would say, yeah it's fine because it was done by a Hindu? In fact, we can direct the question right here to the likes of Seedhi, yoda etc. and ask them if they would be cool if those images were drawn by a Hindu?[/quote']I cannot speak for the Shiv Sena. I would also be outraged even if a Hindu drew the same pictures as MF Hussain. But the element of hypocrisy would probably be absent since in the case of Hussain he has painted images from his own religion but did not dare to paint them nude. I can surely understand that many people construe Hussains actions as an attempt to humiliate Hinduism vis a vis Islam. If a Hindu had done the same, this perception might be absent. Let me add however that it is entirely up to the court of law to decide legal guilt of Hussain or anyone else who does such paintings. But that does not prevent ordinary Hindus from despising such an individual.

[Lurker]

It will not be 'cool'' date=' [b']but definitely the outrage from the majority Hindus would not be this extreme. There are a lot of writers who have written controversial stuff, who happen to be hindu, but none are facing the same opposition that MoFo is facing. He should keep his 'freedeom of expression' to his own religion and not bother about others'.

Really? Bhai saheb which planet do you live on? Painting is an art form that is hardly known and understood by Indians. Heck I would be very interested if anyone on this MB would raise his hands and say he knows the difference between a Satish Gujral painting and a Hussein painting. All the discussions hence concentrate on the "hate mongers" and their major USP is religion. Lets expand arts to a form we all know and can relate to. Bollywood. Do I need to bring up how many times have Hindu dharam ke thekedaars gone after the artists? A quick example would be Deepa Mehta's Fire? Can you remind me what happened then? It was a movie made by Hindu, comprised mostly of Hindu actors and every Hindu chaddidhaari loony was freaking out suggesting - They should make a Muslim lesbian movie. I bring Bollywood only because it is easier to relate to and I dont have to use Google to fight my battles, something I greatly dislike. xxx

[THX_1138]

Really? Bhai saheb which planet do you live on? Painting is an art form that is hardly known and understood by Indians. Heck I would be very interested if anyone on this MB would raise his hands and say he knows the difference between a Satish Gujral painting and a Hussein painting. All the discussions hence concentrate on the "hate mongers" and their major USP is religion. Lets expand arts to a form we all know and can relate to. Bollywood. Do I need to bring up how many times have Hindu dharam ke thekedaars gone after the artists? A quick example would be Deepa Mehta's Fire? Can you remind me what happened then? It was a movie made by Hindu, comprised mostly of Hindu actors and every Hindu chaddidhaari loony was freaking out suggesting - They should make a Muslim lesbian movie. I bring Bollywood only because it is easier to relate to and I dont have to use Google to fight my battles, something I greatly dislike. xxx

make any... i love lesbian movies. nonetheless, that was an exceptional movie, and the least bit of outrage (and i had quite a bit, since it suggested that all men are inconsiderate idiots like me! i guess they dont what a class act h4te is...), the last thing on my mind was, 'hey lets make a lesbians movies about muslim women!'.

[THX_1138]

No matter how much you guys decide to justify this disrespecting act as an art ...the overwhelming evidence of him ridiculing Hinduism in his art while respecting other faiths especially his own shows what a bigot he is.... those days are gone where we bend over and let others steal our knowledge, our discoveries, our culture and abuse us left and right while we sit there and take it 'coz we're taught since childhood to believe in peace no matter what the price we pay for it....those days are OVER....

yep! now we do the stealing... be it recycled television shows, or show tunes, or melodies, or fashion, or even jobs... power to the brown man!

[seedhi]

Do I need to bring up how many times have Hindu dharam ke thekedaars gone after the artists? A quick example would be Deepa Mehta's Fire? Can you remind me what happened then? It was a movie made by Hindu' date=' comprised mostly of Hindu actors and every Hindu chaddidhaari loony was freaking out suggesting - [i']They should make a Muslim lesbian movie.

Just a clarification. Another issue for the protests against Fire was that the two lesbian characters were named Radha and Sita. I believe that the names were deliberately chosen to provoke protests from Hindus.

[Lurker]

Just a clarification. Another issue for the protests against Fire was that the two lesbian characters were named Radha and Sita. I believe that the names were deliberately chosen to provoke protests from Hindus.

:giggle::giggle: now the wrangling is over 2 names which are easily amongst the most common names in North India. Coffee saab umeed karta hoon aap is vishay pe roshni dulte huye dekh rahe hain. :--D Seedhi saab the reason why I invoked Fire was simply to show how Hindu conservative get easily riled even by works from Hindu artists(and is not limited to MFH). Thanks for proving my point. xxx

[yoda]

I cannot speak for the Shiv Sena. I would also be outraged even if a Hindu drew the same pictures as MF Hussain. But the element of hypocrisy would probably be absent since in the case of Hussain he has painted images from his own religion but did not dare to paint them nude. I can surely understand that many people construe Hussains actions as an attempt to humiliate Hinduism vis a vis Islam. If a Hindu had done the same, this perception might be absent.

I concur.

[seedhi]

:giggle::giggle: now the wrangling is over 2 names which are easily amongst the most common names in North India. Coffee saab umeed karta hoon aap is vishay pe roshni dulte huye dekh rahe hain. :--D Seedhi saab the reason why I invoked Fire was simply to show how Hindu conservative get easily riled even by works from Hindu artists(and is not limited to MFH). Thanks for proving my point. xxx

I am just stating that the naming of the characters was an additional grouse the protesters had. I definitely stick to my point that the naming was deliberately provocative - the director/producer/actors had to know that naming two lesbians Sita and Radha would lead to a response. Just like naming them Ayesha and Fatima would have evoked a response from the Muslim side. (Ayesha and Fatima are also popular names amongst Muslims).

[coffee_rules]

Really? Bhai saheb which planet do you live on? Painting is an art form that is hardly known and understood by Indians. Heck I would be very interested if anyone on this MB would raise his hands and say he knows the difference between a Satish Gujral painting and a Hussein painting. All the discussions hence concentrate on the "hate mongers" and their major USP is religion. Lets expand arts to a form we all know and can relate to. Bollywood. Do I need to bring up how many times have Hindu dharam ke thekedaars gone after the artists? A quick example would be Deepa Mehta's Fire? Can you remind me what happened then? It was a movie made by Hindu, comprised mostly of Hindu actors and every Hindu chaddidhaari loony was freaking out suggesting - They should make a Muslim lesbian movie. I bring Bollywood only because it is easier to relate to and I dont have to use Google to fight my battles, something I greatly dislike. xxx

For every 'Fire', I can list a lot of novels esp in Kannada and Tamil which are controversial (alternate versions of Mahabharata where Draupadi lusts after Karna, and where Sita marries Ravana), written by hindu writers, but still I don't see chaddidhaars opposing these works of art, akin to MoFo. There have been some protests to ban the work, where some of them have even got Gnanapith (Sahitya Academy) awards. The case of Fire as I see, had a lot of deliberately written characters to create controversy. - names of characters - the men are close-minded a'holes blindly worshipping some guru - hindu women shown going to a mosque and praying. And foremost worst thing about the movie for which it deserves the treatment is because of her explanation about how women become lesbians because they are treated badly by men. That is Bull crap. Then 95% of Indian women would have been lesbians by her logic.