The Tendulkar Fatigue Syndrome

[Sooda]

Of course Waqar was a colossus HolySm- maybe he didnt demolish domestic records, and he he might not have been stocky (and was most un-cherubic ) One of the greatest fast bowlers of all time

[Dhondy]

How dominant is a batsman? Of the thousands of runs scored through his career, how many were actually scored against the greatest bowlers of his genre? When faced with a situation where his side was in his crisis, did he seek out and face his nemesis in the opposition? Did he make survival his first priority, or throw caution to the winds and let his tempestuous talent loose? Should these factors even enter into the chronicling of greatness by cricket bards? Sachin averages 56.08 against Australia. Yet, with McGrath in the opposition, that average drops to 36.77. Aberration? A statistical quirk? I went back and looked at Sachin's best performance against McGrath in Australia. MCG 1999. Of the 116 he scored, something like 9 runs were scored against the great bowler, @ SR of 25. Somehow, out of some 180+ deliveries faced, only 36 were bowled by McGrath. What was going on? At one stage, of ten consecutive overs by McGrath, he faced only 11 deliveries. Co-incidence? In the second innings, the same thing happened. He scored slightly quicker in the course of his 50-odd, but again faced very few balls from the Aussie bowler. In a seven over period by McGrath, he faced precisely 10 deliveries. Of course, this could be just a co-incidence. During periods of struggle, particularly with a batsman like Dravid at the other end, it is tempting to aim at survival, play out over after over without turning over the strike. Can't be used to indict a batsman. Agreed. What about other batsmen though? Other greats who were part of a struggling side in Australia? Take Lara for example. Why did he never score a less than 50/100 against McGrath in all his major innings in Australia. Why indeed did he face a far greater proportion of deliveries v McGrath per innings than Sachin? I wish I knew. Here are some stark statistics for your scrutiny. Against Australia as a whole, Lara averaged 51.00. That average dropped only slightly- to 46.38 for matches when McGrath was around- a 9% drop to Sachin's 35% decline. What about the other enduring great of this generation? Kallis averages 40.58 against Australia, far less than Sachin's overall Australia specific average, but against McGrath, that average hardly alters- 40.47. Thus, not only does Lara and Kallis' performance suffer less v McGrath than Sachin relative to when he is not around, but in absolute terms, they average more than him. It seems that Sachin maximised his run tally versus the Aussies when McGrath wasn't present. Could be a statistical quirk, of course. OK, let's look at his record against the other great bowler of that generation- the fearsome Allan Donald. Statistical quirks shouldn't strike twice, or could they? Against SA as a whole, Sachin averages 38.24. Bring in Donald, and that falls to 32.90. The same metrics for Lara are 49.0 and 34.05. A precipitous fall as well, but notice- again he averages more than Sachin versus the very best quick of that generation. Ponting's performance drops too when Donald's around....from 56.38 to 45.66. Yet again, ahead of Sachin. Recently, we showed that in all his career, Sachin has scored 79 runs against Shoaib Akhtar, a tally overtaken easily by Sehwag in less Tests, who also faced far more deliveries from the fast bowler. So, of those 12-13000 runs, how many exctly has Sachin scored off the likes of McGrath, Donald, Ambrose, Bond and Shoaib? Does he even aggregate 500 runs against these guys? More importantly, if he doesn't, as is almost certainly the case, does he fall in your estimation? Or is this kind of data mining largely irrelevant- the product of an idle mind? Nevertheless, a pattern emerges. A batsman, timid in his approach versus the very best of the quicks, waiting his turn at the other end to take on the lesser lights. His peers, OTOH have clearly not figured this out. They seem to make no special dispensation, but then the chasm between their career average and H2H average wasn't as wide as Sachin's.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Kohum]

This thread is hillarious !! I first thought it was related to Tendulkar getting fatigue at the end of 200 innings. As I read, I became aware of the fatigue 'caused' by Tendulkars' 200 appearing in every way you turn your eye to. But wait - we are still @ Tendulkars' innings and series averages. Looks to me like the OP Lied ! Lurks/Dhondy - why do you think Waqar was colossal as compared to Imran or Wasim ? Care to enlighten? @Saneindian - Thanks for sharing and I hope you are ok!

[rabinjackman]

Be more fatigued guys... Be more fatigued....... Tendulkar glow helps Mumbai shine Jamie Alter in Delhi March 18, 2010 On a day when he stamped his authority on the shortest format of the game, Sachin Tendulkar provided glimpses of the many facets to his cricketing persona (file photo) © AFP In his 21st year of international cricket, Sachin Tendulkar has been in superb form - runs have flowed in Tests and ODIs and now the Twenty20 format. His innings at the Kotla on Wednesday encompassed all that is brilliant about the man - not just in the manner of his own batting but in how it influenced Mumbai Indians, both necessary traits if they aspire to reach the IPL semi-finals. Mind over body That Tendulkar can score 200 in an ODI and continue to drag a cricket ball from outside off stump and hit it through midwicket at the age of 37 instead of 27, Geoffrey Boycott wrote recently, will continue to astonish many. Yet it should not, he added, come as a surprise: though a player's fitness starts to slip a bit when he hits the mid-30s, the vast experience gained allows him to play smart cricket. The result, as Tendulkar so aptly showed this evening, was that he can perform just as well as he did at 27 without stretching his body to breaking point. Tendulkar is clearly enjoying his cricket, and it was evident in his body language throughout the game. After losing the toss and being asked to bat, a calm Tendulkar said he would have chosen to do so anyway. You could sense he was eager to get out and bat on what he called "a venue that has never been bouncy and tends to play slow and low". His mind was running, and the body caught up soon after in a thrilling display of what experience and form can produce. Touch and thwack Tendulkar has often been more of a touch artist than a bludgeoner but today he showed the gamut from subtle to sledgehammer. His first four boundaries were delicate, tapping the ball lightly with deft wristwork and helping it on its way square of the wicket on both sides. Then, after he scooped a thick edge just over the cover fielder for four, Tendulkar brought out the thump: he stepped out to the legspinner Sarabjit Ladda, made room and produced a big straight hit that bounced just in front of the sightscreen. He repeated the dosage for Amit Mishra. First he played a delicate caress to a fullish ball, hanging back and opening the face of the bat to get four between short third man and point, and next ball smashed it back past the bowler who smartly got out of the way. This trend continued until Tendulkar was dismissed by Mishra for a 32-ball 63. Setting the tone Getting a start is critical in Twenty20 and Tendulkar delivered in the manner that suits him best. He didn't give the bowlers a chance and made sure to keep the ball along the ground. His aggressive intent and the success it yielded, allowed the remaining batsmen to play around him. Aditya Tare slammed 17 from ten balls before he missed a slog, and the pair that followed built on a run rate that was over 10.50. The platform had been set, and Saurabh Tiwary and Ambati Rayudu were able to come out and ride on the wave, ultimately setting up a 200-plus total. Big Brother Aside from his role as batsman, what Tendulkar offers as a thinktank is massive. Two days ago, in the build-up to this massive clash, Tendulkar spent extra time with Tiwary in the nets at the Feroz Shah Kotla, feeding him with balls to fine-tune his sweep shots, which were going wayward. Clearly there has been a thought process behind elevating Tiwary to the first-choice playing XI this season. This season, Tiwary has played some sparkling innings for Jharkhand, the state he captains on the domestic front, and it has not been lost on the Mumbai management. Having someone of Tendulkar's stature give you additional time before a match can work wonders and the result was Tiwary's second belligerent half-century in a row. Under him the Indian players seem to have found the confidence to do well, and how Tendulkar continues to nurture the likes of Tare, Tiwary and Rayudu could be the decisive chapter in Mumbai's season. Sachin the strategist Today, Tendulkar held back the star West Indian duo of Dwayne Bravo and Kieron Pollard, who had only reached India late last night, until the innings was almost done. Given the big bucks doled out for Pollard and Bravo, it would have been tempting to throw them in early but Tendulkar resisted and the move paid off richly. During Delhi's chase he turned to Sanath Jayasuriya after Harbhajan Singh got a wicket in his first over, and the Sri Lankan allrounder struck in successive overs. Again, it would have been easy to keep Bravo and Pollard on but Tendulkar read the track and knew spin was going to be crucial. These are but small instances that allude to how he thinks.

[rabinjackman]

Tendulkar fatigue continues............

[thevortex]

Probably you should look much more towards getting some insight on Waqar? :orderorder::orderorder: Greatness is often personal, so what is great for me may not hold true for you but Waqar Younis is one of the all-time greats. Having seen Imran, Akram, Waqar & Akhtar at their peaks I can concede easily that all of them at their peak, noone had more destruction in him than Waqar. He is a true great.

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I was just mentioning to Dhondy that he was welcome to try and take apart Sachin through numbers and analyses.

[thevortex]

Dhondy - not for nothing is it said that the best place to play fast bowlers from is the non striker's end. :) If Sachin was able to rotate a single against Mcgrath and give it to the other batsman how are we to know whether the other player returned the favour back often enough? Strike rate is a two way game particularly when you know that there are 2 batsmen out there taking on the bowlers. Especially in Tests. Lara was a different batsman to Sachin. He did not like to cramp his style. He would play like himself with gay abandon whatever be the cause or the case. Sometimes it worked spectacularly. Sometimes it dragged his team down. Sachin is far more responsible. Call it a difference in characters, if you will. I find the greatest measure of Sachin as his ability to score runs even when he is starkly out of form. As in that Sydney Test where he scored 200 odd most painful runs. Painful to watch, that is. He does not mind looking ugly. Scoring runs is more important. In a way Tendulkar is a marriage of Lara's flair to Border's bloody mindedness and it is this which elevates him easily over players such as Lara or Ponting. As to statistics - well, that is a game many can play. And each time you could have a different inference depending on what premise you start out with :).

[Gambit]

I have lost the will to engage in discussions on SRT now because he has become cricket's marmite. People either like him or dislike him. He has become the defacto X in the X v Y batsman debate where Y is variable but X always constant. Batsman Y's strength is used to elevate him over Tendulkar but Y as a whole is never considered. Ex - Sehwag's better because he scores faster, Ponting's better because he has more wins, Dravid is better because he can bat slow, never mind Sehwag's Dinesh Gandhi like batting in the 2nd innings and inferior to Sourav Ganguly's average outside Asia and Ponting's pathetic performance in India. Y will always be greater for Tendulkar's critics and X will be greater than infinity for Tendulkar's fans. That's just the way it will be. But let me mention two things quickly. 1. In the two full series Tendulkar has played against McGrath, he averaged 49 with 2 tons and 4 50s. His average falls to 36 because of his poor tests in 2004 when he was hurried back into the squad despite a crippling tennis elbow injury after we were 1-0 down with 2 tests to go. Despite that, he made that match turning 55 against a McGrath led Australia at Mumbai. 2. Tendulkar against Donald in South Africa averages 37 with 2 tons, which included *that* 169. He was decent against the phenom in his den but no so good against him in India.

[thevortex]

Gambit - that is news about Sehwag's average outside Asia being poorer than Ganguly's. I am not sure that that is correct. Sehwag has an outstanding away average, as far as I remember.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Dhondy]

Thanks for replying, Gambo, Boss & Vortex. Boss, the points you have raised applies to every single batsman who has ever played against McGrath. They don't apply singularly to Sachin. And how many runs did others score v McGrath? Why don't you find out? From every single big innings I have sampled, Lara has scored over four times the runs against the Aussie than our Sachin. It's a staggering difference. McGrath has also dismissed Lara many more times. That's what I meant by a pattern emerging. Lara took on McGrath like a prizefighter and has the scars to show for it. Sachin retreated behind a wall of caution, and hardly has any career runs against him man to man. And why exactly are you quoting 30+ bowlers like Lee as counterpoint to McGrath? Gambo, nope I haven't used differential criteria (but by picking out Sachin's best innings and excusing him for the poorest ones, you might have- all batsmen have mitigations like injury, loss of form to explain away failures). In fact, the one batsman who'll have an even worse record against great quicks like McGrath is Dravid. Bar one innings, he was a tailender v Australia when McGrath was in the opposition. Vortex, I think I have conclusively shown that Sachin never dominated any great pace bowler during his career. He was dominated and intimidated by them, chose the safety first approach, and was still dismissed by them many, many times. His career runs against them wouldn't fill one side of a scoresheet. In fact, it's fair to say that the likes of McGrath, Donald and Shoaib owned Sachin. Now live with it.

[Dhondy]

Gambit - that is news about Sehwag's average outside Asia being poorer than Ganguly's. I am not sure that that is correct. Sehwag has an outstanding away average' date=' as far as I remember.[/quote'] Gambo doesn't make mistakes like that. He's absolutely correct.

[Gambit]

Gambit - that is news about Sehwag's average outside Asia being poorer than Ganguly's. I am not sure that that is correct. Sehwag has an outstanding away average' date=' as far as I remember.[/quote'] Sehwag Ganguly

[thevortex]

Vortex, I think I have conclusively shown that Sachin never dominated any great pace bowler during his career. He was dominated and intimidated by them, chose the safety first approach, and was still dismissed by them many, many times. His career runs against them wouldn't fill one side of a scoresheet. In fact, it's fair to say that the likes of McGrath, Donald and Shoaib owned Sachin. Now live with it.

Perhaps you may be so kind as to explain why exactly Sachin was absolutely required to dominate these bowlers? Match scores are a sum effect of the subjective situation of each corresponding game. This meaningless lumping together does not really help gain a perspective. Having played so many Test matches, it is but natural that he would be dismissed by them many times. By the way if that was the fact - that Tendulkar was dominated and intimidated by the fast bowlers adn that he actually ran away from them - then why are these very fast bowlers saying that he is the greatest? Ask Mcgrath or ask Donald. I am sure you would have read what they have had to say about Tendulkar.

[thevortex]

Gambo doesn't make mistakes like that. He's absolutely correct.

Sehwag Ganguly

See, guys, this is where I have a problem with statistics. Given enough time and attempts anybody can cook up anything. Comparing Sehwag's away performance with Ganguly's is just inane in my opinion. Ganguly, as good as he was, does not even hold a candle to Sehwag when it comes to playing notable and match winning (even match saving) innings away from home. Now sample these links folks and let me know. All I have done is considered the two most dominant teams of recent times - Australia and South Africa. In their home, Sehwag averages 46.56 and Ganguly averages a measly 35.35. We could do this all day but then I guess we all know who the better batsman is between Sehwag and Ganguly surely :). http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35263.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;opposition=2;opposition=3;orderby=default;template=results;type=batting http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28779.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;opposition=2;opposition=3;orderby=default;template=results;type=batting

[Dhondy]

That's the difference between you and some of us, Vortex. You are a fan of cricket and Sachin and don't want statistics to come in the way. Evidence, head to heads, ball by ball doesn't matter to you. You don't want to know. We don't give a jot if it's Sachin or anybody else. We looked hard, as we always do, found the unvarnished truth and presented it. If it had suited your POV, you would have smiled and agreed. Because it doesn't, you are suddenly a stats sceptic. That's OK. We have seen this many many times here.

[Gambit]

See' date= guys, this is where I have a problem with statistics. Given enough time and attempts anybody can cook up anything. Comparing Sehwag's away performance with Ganguly's is just inane in my opinion. Ganguly, as good as he was, does not even hold a candle to Sehwag when it comes to playing notable and match winning (even match saving) innings away from home. Now sample these links folks and let me know. All I have done is considered the two most dominant teams of recent times - Australia and South Africa. In their home, Sehwag averages 46.56 and Ganguly averages a measly 35.35. We could do this all day but then I guess we all know who the better batsman is between Sehwag and Ganguly surely :). http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35263.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;opposition=2;opposition=3;orderby=default;template=results;type=batting http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28779.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;opposition=2;opposition=3;orderby=default;template=results;type=batting

My comparison was to underscore that very fact. Another pet peeve of mine is the fascination with PwC ratings. Tendulkar isn't great because he never breached 900. So is Mohammed Yousuf greater than Lara and Gavaskar because he had a higher highest rating? Akram never occupied the #1 spot but Botham did and Botham also breached 900 but Akram didn't, so is Botham better?

[Roshanrocks]

hmmm now that some one mentioned it.... its always ten vs brad, ten vs pon, ten vs lara, ten vs chakrampatuu so ten is da most taokd about batsman in cricket history...... second to bradman because bradman has an advantage of 50+ years

[thevortex]

That's the difference between you and some of us, Vortex. You are a fan of cricket and Sachin and don't want statistics to come in the way. Evidence, head to heads, ball by ball doesn't matter to you. You don't want to know. We don't give a jot if it's Sachin or anybody else. We looked hard, as we always do, found the unvarnished truth and presented it. If it had suited your POV, you would have smiled and agreed. Because it doesn't, you are suddenly a stats sceptic. That's OK. We have seen this many many times here.

Dhondy - I am not sure who the 'we' is here. Because Gambit, as far as I understand is arguing the same point as me (as stated in his reply). And I know I have only been a member here for a very short time. But I have never hesitated to criticize Tendulkar when the need comes up. And it is not that I smile and ignore statistics in just Sachin's case. That is so in every case. Yes, I do love cricket. And I realize that the game drives and produces these numbers. Not vice versa. Now I dont know what opinion you hold on that subject. If Flintoff were to be judged by numbers - where would he be? Skills wise was he the same cricketer the numbers purported him to be? Or Aravinda De Silva? Does Border deserve to be even talked in the same breath when you talk about Tendulkar, Lara and Bradman? Why is it that you see absolutely no discussion comparing Border and Bradman - given that the former topped the world Test run chart for many, many years. I am sure his numbers will stack up against scrutiny. Numbers are not the be all and end all of any game, Dhondy. You can do a post mortem, sure. But the moments in the game cannot be replaced by statistics. A single drop catch can change numbers by the hundreds. Consider that. I value the game first and foremost. It is not that I ignore or disregard numbers. But I would much rather have the game dictate my opinion than just cold numbers.